I have to say i am disapointed with F&D

Mine and my players big complaint is the 2 mechanics for force users.

This has lead to us switch to a new game and no longer supporting this one.

exp.

Explorer-0,Fringer-0,emergent-20,Shii-Cho Knight-40 =60 xp

Warrior-0,Shii-Cho Knight-0,Fringer-30 =30

Now taking a same build look the characters would have the same traits and skill.

the emergent is only taken for the Force Rating.

what we get is to have the same PC the EOE/AOR player has to that 30 extra unused points to have the same character.

this to me and my players is a huge error in design.

the mechanic for the force was already there (Force specialties as universals) but to keep a book format that was not needed here they in my opinion broke the game.

there was no need for the careers that for the most part are just Forced-up versions of the EOE/AOR careers.

This book should be a supplement to the other 2 not a core book, so at this point it is a money grab by FFG to make me pay more by page count for info i already have.

and on top of that the

1.conflict if you know/not use it trait

2.breaking of the mechanics skill to fix build lightsaber

3.super lightsabers

4.and the paragon of light/dark at start-up

were just the nail in the coffin.

I know i could just play EOE/AOR but then its missing the Jedi (the thing that makes it different then any other setting. and to be fair there are better sci-fi game mechanics out there then this one.

sad ive been following this game since FFG announced that they got the licence

so farewell to all i will not be back endless I see some major improvements in this game

I disagree with just about every point you make.

No offense, but it seems like you and your players may have had some unreasonable expectations if you expected Force and Destiny, which from when it was first even named, was known to be a stand-alone book in the same vein as EotE and AoR. And by the time AoR rolled around, you probably should've known what to expect from FaD - that while it would give more stuff for current FFG Star Wars players, that it would also be something that can stand on its own for people that only want to be FaD characters.

In regards to starting as an explorer and going into a force sensitive - the idea is that a player becomes force sensitive when they otherwise would not be, which takes more time and experience (and if you had a character before FaD, you'd likely come out above somebody starting fresh as a Jedi in terms of total talents, skill ranks, etc.), as opposed to just being a force sensitive from the start.

Also, I have no idea what you mean by "super lightsabers". Last I checked, a typical crystal that was maxed out in modifications only just hits the same point as a lightsaber in EotE/AoR - all other crystals tend to be considerably harder to get.

So, as far as XP goes, for one you're ignoring the differences in skills. F&D careers not only have one less skill per career, but players start with one fewer skill free. So the free skill is either 5-10 XP depending on your build. The difference in career skills is harder to quantify but I think 5XP is a fair minimum. So the PC starting as an Explorer has about 10-15XP more in skills than the Warrior PC.

Something that's also being sold short is the value of the Emergent tree. That's an absolutely great tree with easy access to an additional force-rating. This is something that would benefit the Warrior greatly and instead it's being treated solely as a burden. Yes the Explorer had to spend 30 more XP, but they are not the same character. The Explorer has 10-15XP more skills and an additional, beneficial specialization.

Then you have a bunch of opinions on how specs should be that I disagree with.

Then a list

1. I agree with this, that's a stupid idea and one I may ignore if it's not changed

2. What? In what way is it broken? I play an Artisan, there's still plenty of value in Mechanics

3. Lightsabers are weaker by default than in the other games. What are you talking about?

4. What's wrong with this? Seems more realistic than everybody starting dead neutral. They also have to give up something in return to start this way.

Seems like an odd response to a new product, especially when you've already invested cash into the game! One would think that you'd have enough experience with the system to house-rule the few things you dislike.

Hope you have more fun in whatever system you are running now!

Enjoy whatever system you land with! I'll be here enjoying this one!

I feel its fine as is with some final, minor tweaks. You don't. To each their own.

it seems to me you have not really grasped what they are doing or why. There are a couple Order 66 podcasts you should listen to. The designers talk about the design.

You can try SW D6 from WEG, it is a great game. I really love it.

Explorer-0,Fringer-0,emergent-20,Shii-Cho Knight-40 =60 xp

Warrior-0,Shii-Cho Knight-0,Fringer-30 =30

Now taking a same build look the characters would have the same traits and skill.

the emergent is only taken for the Force Rating.

what we get is to have the same PC the EOE/AOR player has to that 30 extra unused points to have the same character.

Oh for Pete`s sake. They are not the same build and if you actually understood the game you would see that. The first build has access to more talents, not to mention the almighty Force rating talent, the second of which does not. As a starting character the first build gives you extra class skills plus an extra rank in a skill. Left as they are, your second build is going to be restricted to a Force rating of 1 whereas the first can have a Force Rating of 2.

So I guess it comes down to how much value you place on those.

If you have problems with the Force & Destiny Beta then don't allow it in your game or better yet make sure your players know if they want to use that book they better provide a good explanation for why .

Whilst I don't like how they've done this, I'd rather find out whether I'm right after either running or playing in a game of this.

The conflict part can be easily abused with the wrong gm, but I've yet to listen to those podcasts they've hinted at so I'll wait until I do.

What exactly is wrong with the lightsabers?

If you don't want them getting their hands on the more powerful crystals then don't let them at least not before several adventures to earn them .

I'd rather lightsaber combat styles be a universal specialty than use up a career slot.

These characters will still need to spend points on force powers which they should if they actually bothered to create a Force User, this is why Ezra is a Force Emergent and Kanan is a Force Sensitive Exile from my point of view.

I don't understand why they didn't rule Force Rating is actually a characteristic allowing Force User PCs to be able to start with a Force Rating of 2 or 3 (20xp for FR of 2 and +30 on top of that for an FR of 3) which is what a padawan or jedi knight would be and then each Force Power purchased is also a Skill with their own extras so 10pts for Force Power 1 costing another 10 to increase that to 2 which is where it remains for a starting player ala same rules as for other skills.

One dropped skill in return for starting off as Force Sensitive doesn't sound enough I'd have reduced their starting xp by 20 so they get to choose between 3 force powers for both the Career and another 3 for their career specialty so they start the game with 20 less xp but either one force power at skill rank 2 or two force powers at skill rank 1 in other words they ARE Force Users which is what this book is supposed to be about ...

Anyway no clue about the mechanics beating lightsaber problem but as for Starting Morality...

As I see it you have 3 choices;

Start off as a Light sider and your starting Morality is 70 as a light sider you add one extra light side destiny point at the start of any session.

Start off as a Dark sider and your starting Morality is 30 as a dark sider you turn one light side destiny point to he dark side at the start of every session.

Start off as Balanced and your Starting Morality is 50 unlike the others at the start of every session you either recover or lose 1d10 Morality as long as it doesn't exceed or lower below 50.

Now you have the choice of either increasing or decreasing your starting morality for extra xp or money depending on what side you chose.

As a Light sider you can only lower your starting Morality by either 5 or 10 depending on whether you want an extra 5xp or 1,000 extra starting credits (-5 morality) or 10 extra xp or 2,500 starting credits or both 5xp and 1,000 starting credits (-10 Morality).

You can only lose your light side ability by falling to the dark side.

As a Dark sider you can only increase your Starting Morality by either 5 or 10 depending on whether you want an extra 5xp or 1,000 extra starting credits (+5 Morality) or 10 extra xp or 2,500 starting credits or both 5xp and 1,000 starting credits (-10 Morality).

You can only lose your dark side ability by returning to the light side.

As a Balanced Force User if you want an extra 5xp or 1,000 starting credits or an extra 10xp or 2,500 starting credits or both 5xp and 1,000 starting credits by deciding whether to increase or lower your starting Morality by either 5 or 10 but you can't do both so it will be either leaving it at 50 for no extras or increasing or decreasing your starting Morality by 5 or 10 unlike the other to if you want to keep your balanced special ability you need to keep within 40-60 Morality or you lose that ability and contrary to Dark siders getting that back is nigh on impossible (staying within 45- 55 for at least a couple of sessions without fail and that's just me being kind .)

Why do I suggest this option?

Because its not the force that's good or evil its the wielder never forget that if you have players that want to play dark siders but show no intention of redeeming themselves at all in a game where the rest of the group are trying to be heroic then that's when they become npcs (Morality drops to 0 if you want to give a warning beforehand and don't like being this arbitrary).

I've listened to a Star Wars Saga actual play that did a good effort at running Sith, but that needs the gm and your group to be willing to play in.

This is probably even more wrong than the opening message of this thread but I wanted to get this off my chest and on the record I look at Artisans and I see them as magical item creators, so I don't see that problem but I don't get how you can make a book about Force Users and yet not include them having Starting Force Powers as part of their careers.

Now what I would have liked is a chapter on creating Force Traditions maybe even using existing examples in that regards I agree that the Emergent and the Exile could have been reprinted here with 4 other variations and that lack of access to starting Force Powers would have made sense... this no so much.

Sorry for the longwinded stuff, I figure some day I'll figure this out but until then I'll keep reading hoping to find the answers I clearly not understood about this book.

Sure, there were a few surprises, but I think they delivered precisely what they said they would. They said this system can stand alone and it does.

I don't really get your points:

and on top of that the

1.conflict if you know/not use it trait

2.breaking of the mechanics skill to fix build lightsaber

3.super lightsabers

4.and the paragon of light/dark at start-up

were just the nail in the coffin.

1. The game works fine without the Morality system. I would sooner play FATAL than try and micromanage my player's actions and track them on a fiddly % scale. I want to play cool glowstick adventures thanks, not argue endlessly about every little deed and misdeed.

2. Ignore that if you like. I did. I don't have a problem with the party Artisan being the go-to person for 'saber modding.

3. ??? They are actually pretty weak until you mod them up. Which is purely at the choice of the GM to make super-lightsabers available.

4. As I said, the game plays fine if you throw out Obligation/Duty/Morality. These are not as essential to the game as people like to think.

"I'm taking my ball and going home."

"Umm... That's my ball."

"Fine. I'm going home."

"...Okay? See ya!"

You can try SW D6 from WEG, it is a great game. I really love it.

Of course the D6 force rules are REALLY broken. And D6 rules don't scale well for long.

Yes and no - if you enforce the "Can only raise a skill one pip at a time" rule from one of the later editions, it stays manageable for a while and enforces diversification. Throw a house rule of "Must keep Willpower the same Die Code as the highest Force Power" and things become more balanced.

Mind you, despite all that it will eventually become kattywampus. It's just a fact of life that all players face - character shelf life. But it helps keep things in check longer than you would think.

Mind you, despite all that it will eventually become kattywampus. It's just a fact of life that all players face - character shelf life. But it helps keep things in check longer than you would think.

This is true of pretty much any XP or leveling system in my experience

True but from what I have seen FFG Star wars scales better and the force is better balanced. Force users can be very powerful but the amount of XP to get there means everyone else is also powerful in other ways.

Naaewwww a wobble!

You can try SW D6 from WEG, it is a great game. I really love it.

Of course the D6 force rules are REALLY broken. And D6 rules don't scale well for long.

Yes but they lead to some fantastically awesome scenes.....I had a game once where a player rammed his swoop into my big-bad NPC, jumped off at the last second and not only survived but walked away unscathed. The only thing missing was putting on sun-glasses while he strolled away.

Or the amazing 'remain conscious' + 'ignore pain' combo...and the fact you always roll 1 die regardless until incapacitated.

You can try SW D6 from WEG, it is a great game. I really love it.

Of course the D6 force rules are REALLY broken. And D6 rules don't scale well for long.

Totally agree on the first, in total disagreement with the second.

You can try SW D6 from WEG, it is a great game. I really love it.

Of course the D6 force rules are REALLY broken. And D6 rules don't scale well for long.

Totally agree on the first, in total disagreement with the second.

When you get beyond a certain number of dice in skills nothing can challenge your characters. It is a great game until your dice pools get too big. FFG has a similar problem but they saw it an nipped it in the bud by not allowing more than 6 dice in a skill.

Yeah, WEG's system started getting a little wonky once the dice pools started going past 6 dice.

Force users were even worse, as they had a whole array of powers at their disposal by the time they reached 5 dice in their Force skills (meaning they could reliably activate most powers), and even just 5D in the Control skill offered up a whole host of options to the character. The Lightsaber Combat power just got broketastic if in a one-on-one confrontation since with 5D in both Control and Sense you'd be adding 3 dice to your attack and damage rolls; use the Combat Sense power the round before hand and you don't even have to worry about that penalty to attack rolls.

Don't get me wrong, it was a fun system, but the fundamental flaw was that it wasn't designed with long-term play in mind by admission of the developers. WEG's D6 system was written with the idea that you'd play the character for six to eight adventures, enough for a full campaign arc, and then retire the character and roll up a new one for the next campaign arc. Not that people would be playing this same character for several dozen adventures over the course of a couple years.