The Morality bit looks like a nice sidebar for optional rules as far as the Morality goes. I do admit to liking the idea of using XP to mod your crystals. Though the use of XP would negate a roll, in my opinion. I've never been fond of having something you invest XP in rely on rolls that can fail sometimes horribly. Just a matter of personal taste as a player and GM. The use of XP would make it a more personal matter, and also a bit more costly long-term than credits.

As a GM, I would use the rules for skilled assistance. Force-using PCs will rarely have the Mechanics skill, so it would be a combination of the assistants' Mechanics and the PC's Intellect. That way, the modifications are still performed by the PC.

I also agree that having a crystal with more than 3 Mod options is too much. I like the suggestion of adding another attachment (emitter?) that carries some of the more common Mods.

I would like to follow JediHamlet's lead and look at lightsaber mods from a different angle and leverage the narrative dice system to the fullest.

What if the mechanics of the modification were slightly different. Let say we take the same mechanics check and difficulty rating for the basic lightsaber build or even once step higher. We let the character add their force rating in boost dice to the roll. When the roll is successful, we take any left over advantages or triumphs and 'spend' them on mods appropriate to the crystal type. There would be a chart where each mod 'costs' a certain amount of advantage or triumph. Past modifications do not stack with future mods. Threat or despair can introduce glitches or problems with the build even in success. When the roll fails, the lightsaber may be ruined or damaged depending on the threat or despair left.

In this approach, the check produces multiple mods at once but there is always a chance you will have to rebuild part of the saber or that you will introduce problems or 'quirks' with the build. This way high power force users or highly skilled mechanics can produce powerful blades, but they will likely only attempt it after they have made significance advancements in their mechanics or force rating.

Comments?

Aki

FFG probably isn't going to re-invent the wheel when it comes to the attachment/modification system. It's been in place since EotE and with the sole exception of 'saber crystals works quite well. The closest we've seen to a 'drastic change to a mechanic' during the Betas was AoR's Starting Duty values, which initially started a 0 for everyone with no option for extra XP or credits, but was revised to function a bit more like Starting Obligation, with a set value based on group size but reduced if you wanted more starting XP or credits. Even the Massive quality introduced during the AoR Beta wasn't a major change to the existing rules.

And even the 'saber crystals are an oddity only if you're willing to stick with the established background material that a lightsaber is a very personal item; if you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater in regards to that background material, which is canon since the importance of a Jedi's lightsaber gets mentioned in the films, both as a part of their identity (AotC) and a measure of a Jedi's degree of skill (RotJ), then it's not a problem since at that point a lightsaber just becomes another item, albiet one with a very high damage output thanks to the Breach 1 quality.

Maybe allowing the character to use Discipline/Intellect instead of Mechanics/Intellect isn't the optimal solution to addressing the concern of FaD PCs simply foisting what should be a very personal item off on the party's mechanic, but it does allow the PC to be able to perform the modifications themselves, at the same difficulty and risk of failure as the party mechanic that has invested in the Mechanics skill. I've used this a couple times, both as a player and GM, and in none of the instances did the game suddenly break because an alternate skill was used. If anythiing, it lessened reliance upon the party mechanic to be the one tweaking the entire party's gear. it also doesn't require any major revisions of the rules, which is something that the design team is probably going to avoid if they can help it.

Though as a compromise between the two camps of "use Discipline" and "don't change it!" I suppose allowing the Force user to add boost dice or to upgrade their dice pool equal to their Force Rating could work. It still allows those PCs that don't want to focus on Mechanics and stick to the established background material of a lightsaber being a deeply personal thing for a Jedi-type character to have a decent chance of upgrading their primary weapon. Though such an option does start to tread upon the Artisan's Comprehend Technology talent, particularly the upgrade portion, even if it is for a fairly limited application (modifying a lightsaber vs. using Force Rating as skill ranks for anything to do with any given item).

My thought with using Force Rating (and this conversation is better suited for Donovan's thread) is that it still gives the power to upgrade lightsabers to everyone except those who actually use them.

If the goal is to have characters modify their own sabers, then the modification roll should be something available to saber users. And since the lightsaber forms don't include Force Rating (except Niman) you are again ending up with non-saber users – who may not even want to use a lightsaber – being best at modifying them.

How about Intellect + Mechanics + 1 boost die per Lightsaber rank for mod checks? That would not alienate low FR characters and still give the builder a chance to match the rather high difficult upgrades imposed for multiple modifications. I agree that characters can grab gadgeteering specs/talents if they want to excel at mechanics.

As to the thread topic. The more I look at the current rules for lightsaber mods, the more fiddly they seem. I would probably just scrap the idea of modding crystals or individual components and treat mods as applying to the whole saber with individual crystals supplying the base damage rating and one special effect (like burning or extra crit) at the time the saber is first built with the crystal. All additional mods would apply to the saber as a whole and be lost if the saber is destroyed.

My thought with using Force Rating (and this conversation is better suited for Donovan's thread) is that it still gives the power to upgrade lightsabers to everyone except those who actually use them.

If the goal is to have characters modify their own sabers, then the modification roll should be something available to saber users. And since the lightsaber forms don't include Force Rating (except Niman) you are again ending up with non-saber users – who may not even want to use a lightsaber – being best at modifying them.

Following Doc's thought -- perhaps it should be a talent that allows such?

Some talent added (at the cost of something else, of course) to the Lightsaber form specializations that allows a user to replace their Force rating for the characteristic or skill rank (or just downgrades the check by Force rating) when modifying crystals. Not all forms would have it, maybe just a few of them.

I like the idea of keeping the ability/bonus with the Lightsaber form specializations as it does make it a personal investment, but just for those that want to make that investment.

Here I submit a few emitters and lens' for you rip apart. I tried to make these with the idea that the crystals would be dropped. Some of the properties could be dropped, probably remove most if not all the damage mods, and remove some of the other properties to be placed on these guys. I need to work them more, but here is my preliminary rough draft of them. Any feedback is appriciated. I am sure they need plenty of balance and play-testing.

I like the Interlocking Hilt. But most of those lenses are pretty much lightsaber crystals, without any base damage. Remember, lens/crystal determines base damage.

I was thinking of removing the damage mods from the crystals, but leaving things like vicious or breach on them. They give you the base damage, but to upgrade further you would need a different emitter/lens than the standard ones. I don't mind tinning them down to accomplish this.

The interlocking hilt had a total of unwieldy 3, but i had considered allowing two crystals with it. One in each lightsaber. My play-testing comes out ok, but then it feels like it out does the double bladed lightsaber. I'll post a second version when i get home.

I don't know that morality is the right thing. As it wouldn't work right for Darksiders.

I think splitting up the mods into multiple attachment will help a lot as it will shrink the number of mods. As 7 mods is insane.

maybe we need a mechanic for taking extra and careful time. Basically doing something in a ritualistic fashion that could give you upgrades to your ability. taking 1 hour or day gives you one upgrade. 3 hours or days 2 upgrades. 6 hours or days 3 upgrades. As everything I have ever seen aside from the SWTOR game had jedi taking hours and days to do this task.

This system does not seem to have a mechanism for taking extra time and care. Which if something it hard and you can take the time you can usually do something with far more ability than going fast.

For example you can turn out a sword in a few days and get something serviceable. But if you make a sword the Japanese way you will get something truly amazing. but it took a very long time to do.

I don't know that morality is the right thing. As it wouldn't work right for Darksiders.

I think splitting up the mods into multiple attachment will help a lot as it will shrink the number of mods. As 7 mods is insane.

maybe we need a mechanic for taking extra and careful time. Basically doing something in a ritualistic fashion that could give you upgrades to your ability. taking 1 hour or day gives you one upgrade. 3 hours or days 2 upgrades. 6 hours or days 3 upgrades. As everything I have ever seen aside from the SWTOR game had jedi taking hours and days to do this task.

This system does not seem to have a mechanism for taking extra time and care. Which if something it hard and you can take the time you can usually do something with far more ability than going fast.

For example you can turn out a sword in a few days and get something serviceable. But if you make a sword the Japanese way you will get something truly amazing. but it took a very long time to do.

I agree, the simplest way to mitigate large number of mods to the single attachment (aside from contracting the job out) would be to introduce an extended test/time mechanic relating to that attachment....katana fanboy mystique aside.

Well, I'm back with a slightly refined version of my mods presented before. Here, I have tweaked them and toned them down. I am leaving the prices at 500 just because I don't know what should be a decent price. Everybody likes to use Ilum as the base example crystal, so here is my version.

Then my list of mods:

I removed a few of the damage mods. Probably still unbalanced, but let's build a sample 'saber.

I think I got it balanced OK at this point. My arena duals show it works out OK overall. I did consider putting some skill or talent mods in there. Maybe swapping out Deflection/Defensive for Reflect/Parry, respectively. What other skills or talents could you put on these? I want them to have more than just damage or defense and the like.

That's a LOT of extra abilities. compare that to the crystal that adds defense and deflection and the current beta power compared to what your test case is... there is a wide gulf of power.

I'm of the camp that sabers should basically be at the power levels that are in the Beta. whether that is through crystals alone, crysta's plus emitters, Lego blocks, Ithorian eco bark, or peyote. I think you still need to tone down the power of your items, especially when you have hilts, lenses, emitters and crystals.

Also, I would avoid placing any talents like reflect/parry in there. Personal opinion, but I think it's a bad idea.

I don't know that morality is the right thing. As it wouldn't work right for Darksiders.

I think splitting up the mods into multiple attachment will help a lot as it will shrink the number of mods. As 7 mods is insane.

maybe we need a mechanic for taking extra and careful time. Basically doing something in a ritualistic fashion that could give you upgrades to your ability. taking 1 hour or day gives you one upgrade. 3 hours or days 2 upgrades. 6 hours or days 3 upgrades. As everything I have ever seen aside from the SWTOR game had jedi taking hours and days to do this task.

This system does not seem to have a mechanism for taking extra time and care. Which if something it hard and you can take the time you can usually do something with far more ability than going fast.

For example you can turn out a sword in a few days and get something serviceable. But if you make a sword the Japanese way you will get something truly amazing. but it took a very long time to do.

I agree, the simplest way to mitigate large number of mods to the single attachment (aside from contracting the job out) would be to introduce an extended test/time mechanic relating to that attachment....katana fanboy mystique aside.

Not a katana fanboy. Just happen to know several sword smiths and know the metallurgy. while true Katana's are not the end all be all. they are very good if used how they are intended to be used.

That's a LOT of extra abilities. compare that to the crystal that adds defense and deflection and the current beta power compared to what your test case is... there is a wide gulf of power.

I'm of the camp that sabers should basically be at the power levels that are in the Beta. whether that is through crystals alone, crysta's plus emitters, Lego blocks, Ithorian eco bark, or peyote. I think you still need to tone down the power of your items, especially when you have hilts, lenses, emitters and crystals.

Also, I would avoid placing any talents like reflect/parry in there. Personal opinion, but I think it's a bad idea.

Lego bricks...hmm...not a bad idea. I bet we could get, like, 10 more Damage Mods out of them!

What way should I tone them down? I can easily remove the Deflection stuff, lower it to like one. Maybe two. I figured things like the Dueling setup would gt maybe a free bonus to Parry, or Reflect to the Deflection Emitter - based on how there is a barrel that gives you Sniper Shot if you use the mod. Not talking damage and the talents. These would need to be moved around. The idea is to keep the lethality roughly the same, but adding some benefits to choosing this lens/emitter over another. Kind of like the rest of the attachment/mod stuff for other weapons.

Edit: To keep the levels in check, would it be better to scrap these, and turn them into only usable by certain crystal types? Like, there would be an Ilum Lens/Emitter that can only be used for Ilum, but combined they would have all the DMG mods from the Ilum crystal? Part of me says this could work, but then the other side sees it as a bugger agaianst the 'uniqueness' of the individual sabers using different mods.

Well, I'm AFB, but IIRC the Lorrdian crystal fully upgraded is damage 8, vicious 2, and defense/deflect 2, and crit 2.

This would put your test saber 2 damage up, one crit lower, and 3 defense up. I'm not saying it's a campaign breaking improvement, but that is a lot of extra stuff, on top of an already expensive crystal in RAW.

I think what you have is a good example of how placing even a couple mods on sabers (or any weapon really) can create unbalancing effects, relative to other weapons.

Now, does that make your ideas bad? No, just a little too much. If you want lense attachments, I would suggest that they have both a positive and negative consequence, similar to dualist training in the beta, and they should have no additional mods. This way, you don't run the risk of accidentally overpowering the sabers, and the lenses aren't there to make it better, but to specialize the weapon.

Now, does that make your ideas bad? No, just a little too much. If you want lense attachments, I would suggest that they have both a positive and negative consequence, similar to dualist training in the beta, and they should have no additional mods. This way, you don't run the risk of accidentally overpowering the sabers, and the lenses aren't there to make it better, but to specialize the weapon.

So a Shoto Lense: -2 damage, Accurate.

That would be my take... reminds me of some of the barrel attachments that reduce the weapon, but add a quality.

Though a shoto is more than a lense, it's just a whole other weapon. Maybe the hilt is better, as that could reflect the smaller size...

Now that you put pen to paper so to speak, the hilt is probably better.

That would be my take... reminds me of some of the barrel attachments that reduce the weapon, but add a quality.

Though a shoto is more than a lense, it's just a whole other weapon. Maybe the hilt is better, as that could reflect the smaller size...

Now that you put pen to paper so to speak, the hilt is probably better.

Though, that doesn't make much sense from a "it's freakin plasma" angle, but, eh.

less actual plasma? lower power output and all. I mean, not all plasmas are equal in energy state and intensity. See red star v blue star. Also, less raw surface area to deal damage with?

I dunno. The main issue for me atm is that shotos don't really occupy a useful space in the game, hence why this is easy to see from different angles. I mean, if shotos provided a melee defense +1 when wielded in the off hand... awesome!. OR if there was a penalty to two handing two one handed weapons. OR if there was a small race and using a shoto one handed was necessary. OR even if it was easier to conceal.

I'm not saying any of these are what a shoto SHOULD do, but at least that would give a mechanical reason to have it. Accurate =/= -2 damage. not by a long shot. And there are no talents in any of the trees to reflect the *coughkatana/wakizashicoughcough* style of combat. So it is really just a dead zone mechanics wise (unlike the double which makes awesome sense IMO).

I agree with you head canon wise Eeyore, or at least don't disagree, but at present rules wise, the shoto is a touch pointless.

less actual plasma? lower power output and all. I mean, not all plasmas are equal in energy state and intensity. See red star v blue star. Also, less raw surface area to deal damage with?

I dunno. The main issue for me atm is that shotos don't really occupy a useful space in the game, hence why this is easy to see from different angles. I mean, if shotos provided a melee defense +1 when wielded in the off hand... awesome!. OR if there was a penalty to two handing two one handed weapons. OR if there was a small race and using a shoto one handed was necessary. OR even if it was easier to conceal.

I believe later in that same post, I said accurate =/= -2 damage, so yeah, I know.

I believe later in that same post, I said accurate =/= -2 damage, so yeah, I know.

Granted the one Jedi I've made so far dual wields Shoto and I'm not concerned with the -2 damage. With Breach I'll still be murdering anything I stick my Lightsaber into anyway.

less actual plasma? lower power output and all. I mean, not all plasmas are equal in energy state and intensity. See red star v blue star. Also, less raw surface area to deal damage with?

I dunno. The main issue for me atm is that shotos don't really occupy a useful space in the game, hence why this is easy to see from different angles. I mean, if shotos provided a melee defense +1 when wielded in the off hand... awesome!. OR if there was a penalty to two handing two one handed weapons. OR if there was a small race and using a shoto one handed was necessary. OR even if it was easier to conceal.

I'm not saying any of these are what a shoto SHOULD do, but at least that would give a mechanical reason to have it. Accurate =/= -2 damage. not by a long shot. And there are no talents in any of the trees to reflect the *coughkatana/wakizashicoughcough* style of combat. So it is really just a dead zone mechanics wise (unlike the double which makes awesome sense IMO).

I agree with you head canon wise Eeyore, or at least don't disagree, but at present rules wise, the shoto is a touch pointless.

They mention Jar Kai...But no rules for it. Yet. But I suspect when we start getting splat books we will see a couple more lightsaber forms. like the Seeker or Sentinel career I suspect will get Jar Kai. Maybe warrior will Vapaad. What else we missing?