The more I think about how lightsabers are modded, the less I like it. You have a very expensive and very rare crystal that probably took a few adventures to obtain. If you fail your first roll on modding up the damage, then you can never mod that crystal's damage up further. It's pretty clear that the intent is that players do so, but the permanence of failure of this roll is too high for something so precious.

It also doesn't really work from a narrative perspective. You aren't modding the crystal, you are modding the hilt for the crystal. Why do the mods remain with the crystal at all?

What if the mods were moved off of crystals all together. They would provide the baseline stats, but the mods would reside in another less expensive and less rare piece of hardware.

A few options would include.

1. Other attachments. There could be other attachments (like emitters) that could improve the lightsaber in different ways. You could get some nice choices of this, like having one that focuses more on damage than crit, while another focuses more on crit and vicious, or even other traits entirely.

2. Directly modding the hilt. This way seems the most direct, and could lead to some cool options as well. The current attachments that completely remake a hilt (like curved or extended hilt) could become their own separate hilt styles. Each hilt could have its own set of mods, so maybe curved would give you more crit and defensive while standard would give more damage. It would make for more interesting combinations and choices.

What say you all? Do either of these options seem like a better fit?

I'm cool with all that. But those that are still Romancing the Blade won't be particularly happy.

Honestly, I'd be cool with a "both" option. Something that allows Discipline Users to align their Cheese (spelled Chi by some) with the Saber through the Crystal, possibly some sort of "Commit Force Dice to add these Qualities" thing. Maybe?

As well as a limited "modify the Emitter, the Hilt, the Power Source, the Focusing Lens, the anything else I'm forgetting" thing, that would be pure Mechanics.

Keeping them "on par" with each other and not allowing them to stack is probably best. The Tech head Saber swingers get crunchy benes, the Blade Romancers get squishy touchy-feely spiritual benes.

The most simple option would be to say that you are modifying the hilt, but the modification options are determined by your lightsaber crystal.

So the system would be largely unchanged, but if you fail a check, you only have to replace the hilt to begin modding the lightsaber again.

I would rather see sabers have both hilt and emitter attachments (both modable) with crystals being un modded attachments. Thus the basic saber in F&D remains unchanged, but the saber in EotE and AoR represents a saber with mods and a really high-end crystal.

(I know I'm speaking against my own interest here, having a cargo hold full of crystal polish I'd really like to unload, but I'd write the whole thing off to get this clunky-arse subsystem fixed-up right...)

I would even like to see some special bonding with the crystals. something only for force users.

If we take out the common upgrades from all the crystals, we can probably get an improved emitter attachment that would add viscious as the base, with optional additions for 2 damage upgrades a viscious upgrade, and a lower crit.

Then the crystals can still grant bonuses, enough to be a worthwhile endeavor for Force users, but it splits it.

I would even like to see some special bonding with the crystals. something only for force users.

I would leave this up to fluff for the table to decide. It's contentious enough to leave rules agnostic.

But the rest of what you said is exactly what I'm getting at -- put enough common upgrades on the emitter attachment + mods to get you roughly halfway there, keeping it on par with attachments for other weapons, and make the crystals inherently boss enough to justify paying sky-high rates and/or questing for.

That's fair. Making the crystals static would keep the game simple.

I'd also like to see inferior crystals, and a synthetic crystal entry. Luke's crystal in RotJ (of course from an EU description) is synthetic and the sith use synthetic crystals almost exclusively. Would be nice to see this come up, as that could be the focus of an adventure, learning the techniques to making a synthetic crystal... etc.

One problem I foresee with making modifications entirley part of the hilt is that if the hilt gets destroyed (which can be done for 2 Triumphs), then the character is SOL on any of the modifications done. With having the mods be part of the crystal as well as in line with the most recent Beta update, if the lightsaber is destroyed, there's at least a chance to salvage the crystal and whatever modifications have been made.

Truthfully, I think the idea of removing some of the damage plusses and ranks in Viciious rom various crystals and putting into an improved emitter attachment would be sufficient, and does have merit in light of how insane some of the difficulties can get if you follow Sam Stewart's suggestion from the O66 podcast about upgrading the difficutly dice once you go past Formidable.

So for instance, if adding said improved focusing emitter to the list of attachments, change the modification options to be as follows:

Barab Ingot: 2 item quality (Burn +1) Mods, 1 item quality (Vicious) Mod (3 total)

Dantari Crystal: 1 decrease crit rating by 1 Mod, 1 Damage +1 Mod (2 total)

Dragite Gem: 2 item quality (Disorient +1) Mods, 2 item quality (Concussive+1) Mods (4 total)

Ilum Crystal: 2 Damage +1 Mods, 1 decrease crit rating by 1 Mod (3 total)

Krayt Dragon Pearl: 2 item quality (Vicious +1) Mods (2 total)

Lorrdian Gemstone: unchanged

Mephite Crystal: 1 Damage +1 Mod, 1 item quality (Vicious +1) Mod, 1 decrease crit rating Mod (3 total)

Athiss Cave Crystal: 1 Damage +1 Mod, 1 item quality (Vicious +1) Mod, 1 decrease crit rating Mod (3 total)

As for the improved emitter itself:

Base Quality: Add Item Quality (Vicious +1) to the lightsaber.

Modifications: 2 Damage +1 Mods (2 total)

Hard Points: 2*

*This was done so as to cut down on the "so gotta have this!" factor, leaving a basic lightsaber just enough room for a single other modification, though it does leave shotos and 'saber pikes out in the cold; perhaps give the shot hilt an extra hard point for a total of 4, or just have them hope there's an Artisan in the party that can add that extra required hard point, or that someone with Tinkerer is willing to spend their talent slot to tweak your shoto.

So with a fully modded Ilum Crystal (Damage 8, Crit Rating 1, Vicious 1) and a fully modded Improved Emitter (+2 Damage, +1 to Vicious), you've got a basic lightsaber that now performs the same as the EotE/AoR lightsabers but without the insane difficulties to make all those modifications.

I made a big post awhile back rewriting the lightsaber section for this idea, and didnt get much responce: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/121042-rewriting-lightsabers-a-suggesed-revision/

TLDR: Instead of having a weapon hat you attach a crystal to, you have a crystal emitter that you attach a hilt to. The crystals keep their unique abilities, but the hilts gain a mod list that is EXPLICITLY more than you can put on a single saber, so you have to pick and choose which options you want.... and if you fail at one, there's more to try for, that might not be what you're looking for.

For the crystals, I made a first pass at merging their unique mods with the base crystal, but I expect they will need some revision. They seem to come in 2 and a half categorys- Knightlevel crystals, Advanced crystals, and the Starting training saber (and ancient sword if you count it), so they should probably be roughtly balanced with their partners.

For the hilts, I tried to add somethin unique to each one's mods. If you have a better idea, feel free to suggest something. (I'm also considering merging the Extended Hilt mod bonuses into the base hilt mods)

Lightsabers
More than any other item or cultural touchstone, the lightsaber was the symbol of the ancient Jedi Order throughout its long history. Throughout the generations, lightsaber technology was refined from the first high-maintenance “captive bolt” lightsabers to the lightweight, modern lightsaber, which utilizes a stabilized, massless plasma beam that burns as hot and bright as a star at its core.
The most important part of a lightsaber is the focusing crystal that forms the heart of the emitter. transforming the weapon’s powerful plasma energies into a crackling, coherent energy blade. Although there are many different types of lightsaber emitters, for rules purposes, any weapon that uses the Lightsaber skill is considered a lightsaber, even if the weapon has a different name.

Basic Emitter

Made from an Ilum Crystal, a basic lightsaber emitter is, in essence, the baseline to
which all other lightsabers and their variants are compared. Prior to the rise of the
Empire, nearly every lightsaber constructed by the Jedi Order during the Clone Wars contains a crystal gathered by the Padawans from the planet Ilum.

A Lightsaber built from a Basic Emitter has a base damage of 7 and critical rating to
2, 4 hardpoints, and has the Breach 1 and Sunder weapon qualities. They are Restricted by the empire, and cost 9,000c

Barab Ingot
These variants of Kyber crystals are unique to the heavily irradiated world Barab I. Found in small clusters in mountainous regions, Barab ingots are hot to the touch and glow with a fierce inner light. When installed in a lightsaber emitter, they create a searing, fiery blade that burns so fierce and bright that it nearly loses its cohesion.

A Lightsaber built from a Barab Ingot has a base damage of 6 and a critical rating of 3, 4 hardpoints, and has the Breach 1, Burn 2, and Sunder properties.
Price: ® 15,000 credits.

Dantari Crystal
These multihued Kyber crystals were once extremely popular among the Jedi. When installed in a lightsaber, a Force-reactive Dantari crystal helps the wielder conserve and recover Force energies.

A Lightsaber built from a Dantari crystal has a base damage of 5 and a critical rating of 2, 4 hardpoints, and has the Breach 1 and Sunder properties. When making a Force power check
as part of a combat check, a character using a lightsaber with a Dantari crystal may spend a forcepoint to recover 2 strain.
Price: ® 12,000 credits

Dragite Gem
In their natural state, dragite crystals are one of the most brittle forms of Kyber crystal, and produce a loud ringing when struck. When worked into a suitable lightsaber crystal and installed in an emitter, (a difficult task due to the dragite gem’s distressing tendency to fracture or shatter at the slightest provocation) it produces an extremely
loud blade that pulses and hums across a number of frequencies.

A Lightsaber built from a Dragite Gem has a base damage of 4 and a critical rating of 2, 4 hardpoints, and has the Breach 1, Disorient 3, Concussive 1 and Sunder properties.
Cost: ® 14,000 credits.

Krayt Dragon Pearl
The terrible krayt dragons of Tatooine tend to live for an incredibly long time, and over the course of their lives will ingest stones to aid with digestion. While the caustic digestive juices of the krayt dragon can even break down stone over time, every once in a while these stones
contain some form of Kyber crystal. Incredibly resilient, they remain in the creatures’ guts for the entirety of the dragons’ lives, slowly being polished and smoothed into small, dense spheres of crystal. The resulting “krayt dragon pearls” are vanishingly rare. Since they are a type of Kyber crystal, they can be worked into powerful lightsaber crystals.

A Lightsaber built from a Krayt Dragon Pearl has a base damage of 8 and a critical rating of 1, 4 hardpoints, and has the Breach 1, Vicious 3 and Sunder properties.
Price: ® 15,000 credits.

Lorrdian gemstone
Lorrdian gemstones are crystals mined millennia ago by enslaved Lorrdians during the Kanz Disorders.

A Lightsaber built from a Lorrdian gemstone has a base damage of 4 and a critical rating of 3, 4 hardpoints, and has the Breach 1, Defensive 1, Deflection 1 and Sunder properties.
Price: ® 7,000 credits.

Mephite crystal
Mephite crystals are rare, lustrous crystals found in a handful of places in and around the Adega system. Mephite crystals are well-suited for use in lightsabers due to their internal structure and light-modulating capabilities.

A Lightsaber built from a Mephite crystal has a base damage of 8 and a critical rating of 2, 4 hardpoints, and has the Breach 1 and Sunder properties. Force-sensitive characters using
Force powers to sense their surroundings automatically detect a lightsaber using a mephite crystal if it is in range of the power.
Price: ® 10,000 credits

Sapith gem
Sapith gems are similar to krayt dragon pearls in that they were consumed by large volice worms, then polished and shaped within their stomachs. Shaped like serpent scales, these smooth, lustrous crystals have an incredibly complex internal structure, which increases the intensity and brilliance of any light that passes through them.
Base Modifiers:Installing this crystal changes a
lightsaber’s damage to 7 and its critical rating to 2,
and the lightsaber gains the Breach 1 and Sunder
weapon qualities. If the crystal is ever removed, the
lightsaber loses these qualities, and reverts to its previous base damage and critical rating.
Modification Options:1 Item Quality (Breach +1)
Mod, 2 Damage +1 Mods, 1 Decrease the weapon’s
critical rating by one to a minimum of 1 Mod.
Hard Points Required: 2.

A Lightsaber built from a Sapith gem has a base damage of 5 and a critical rating of 2, 4 hardpoints, and has the Breach 2 and Sunder properties.
Price: ® 18,000 credits

Training Lightsaber Emitter
In the days of the Republic, the Jedi allowed their younglings to train with “training sabers,” non-lethal versions of their famous energy blades. In actuality, a training lightsaber is almost the same as a standard lightsaber, except that the crystal is replaced with a training emitter. The training emitter creates a blade that is almost completely non-lethal. At most, it can generate a stun shock. Though of limited utility, these devices
do have the benefit of not being illegal—in the strictest sense.

A Lightsaber built from a Training Emitter has a base damage of 4 and a critical rating of 6, 4 hardpoints, and has the Stun property.

Price:300 credits

Mods:

Basic hilt: (will add description in the morning) 1 hardpoint, +1 damage

Customization options: 2x Vicious +1, 3xDamage +1, 1 Decrease Crit rating,

Cost: 300c

Double Saber Hilt: 2 hardpoints, Linked 1, Unwieldly 3

Customization options: 2x Vicious +1, 4xDamage +1, 1 Decrease Crit rating, 1 Autofire mod

Cost: 600c

Lightsaber Pike Hilt: 3 hardpoints, Cumbersme 3, Defensive 1

Customization options: 2x Vicious +1, 4xDamage +1, 1 Decrease Crit rating, 1 Defensive +1

Cost: 600c

Shoto Hilt: 3 hardpoints,

Customization options: 2x Vicious +1, 2xDamage +1, 1 Decrease Crit rating, 2x Defensive +1, 2x Deflection +1

Cost: 300c

(Other mods are as normal.)

Thoughts?

While we are on the topic, the hard point situation needs to be fixed as well. As it stands lightsabers have enough hard points to basically add everything that is available, leaving no room for any decisionmaking. In addition, crystals taking up HP confuses the issue.

HP on lightsabers needs to go down, and crystals need their HP requirement reduced from 1-2 to 0-1. That way, when you see a basic lightsaber there will be no confusion whether the 0 HP crystal is has is included in the HP total.

While we are on the topic, the hard point situation needs to be fixed as well. As it stands lightsabers have enough hard points to basically add everything that is available, leaving no room for any decisionmaking. In addition, crystals taking up HP confuses the issue.

HP on lightsabers needs to go down, and crystals need their HP requirement reduced from 1-2 to 0-1. That way, when you see a basic lightsaber there will be no confusion whether the 0 HP crystal is has is included in the HP total.

My suggestion when this was brought up in the proofreading section was to simply drop the listed hard points for each lightsaber by 2 to account for the default installed crystal, with the hilts listed in the sidebar underneath representing a lightsaber sans crystal.

it's also why i suggested setting the Emiiter at 2 hard points, so that a PC has to choose which options they go for rather than simply just stacking the crystal of their choice, a 1 HP emitter, superior hilt customization, and either extended hilt or curved hilt to round out the weapon.

One problem I foresee with making modifications entirley part of the hilt is that if the hilt gets destroyed (which can be done for 2 Triumphs), then the character is SOL on any of the modifications done. With having the mods be part of the crystal as well as in line with the most recent Beta update, if the lightsaber is destroyed, there's at least a chance to salvage the crystal and whatever modifications have been made.

Truthfully, I think the idea of removing some of the damage plusses and ranks in Viciious rom various crystals and putting into an improved emitter attachment would be sufficient, and does have merit in light of how insane some of the difficulties can get if you follow Sam Stewart's suggestion from the O66 podcast about upgrading the difficutly dice once you go past Formidable.

So for instance, if adding said improved focusing emitter to the list of attachments, change the modification options to be as follows:

Barab Ingot: 2 item quality (Burn +1) Mods, 1 item quality (Vicious) Mod (3 total)

Dantari Crystal: 1 decrease crit rating by 1 Mod, 1 Damage +1 Mod (2 total)

Dragite Gem: 2 item quality (Disorient +1) Mods, 2 item quality (Concussive+1) Mods (4 total)

Ilum Crystal: 2 Damage +1 Mods, 1 decrease crit rating by 1 Mod (3 total)

Krayt Dragon Pearl: 2 item quality (Vicious +1) Mods (2 total)

Lorrdian Gemstone: unchanged

Mephite Crystal: 1 Damage +1 Mod, 1 item quality (Vicious +1) Mod, 1 decrease crit rating Mod (3 total)

Athiss Cave Crystal: 1 Damage +1 Mod, 1 item quality (Vicious +1) Mod, 1 decrease crit rating Mod (3 total)

As for the improved emitter itself:

Base Quality: Add Item Quality (Vicious +1) to the lightsaber.

Modifications: 2 Damage +1 Mods (2 total)

Hard Points: 2*

*This was done so as to cut down on the "so gotta have this!" factor, leaving a basic lightsaber just enough room for a single other modification, though it does leave shotos and 'saber pikes out in the cold; perhaps give the shot hilt an extra hard point for a total of 4, or just have them hope there's an Artisan in the party that can add that extra required hard point, or that someone with Tinkerer is willing to spend their talent slot to tweak your shoto.

So with a fully modded Ilum Crystal (Damage 8, Crit Rating 1, Vicious 1) and a fully modded Improved Emitter (+2 Damage, +1 to Vicious), you've got a basic lightsaber that now performs the same as the EotE/AoR lightsabers but without the insane difficulties to make all those modifications.

If it is an emitter that is modded, then it doesn't have to be destroyed when sundered. Also, the cost to repair is always based off the base cost of the item/weapon, so it's not so bad cost-wise.

Splitting bonuses between the emitter/hilt and the crystal is too complicated for my tastes.

If the emitter is 500-1000 credits, losing it in a "sunder" isnt the multi thousand credit loss of the crystal. Another advanTage of splitting the crystal and emitter, it allows the GM some flexibility in using the double triumph, having a consequence of note, but not ruining the whole set of upgrades. RAW now, the destruction of a saber is simply an inconvenience, upgrades wise.

Well, also bear in mind that as things currently stand in the Beta Updates, a lightsaber in FaD is now immune to Sunder just as it was in EotE and AoR. So you've either got "works perfectly fine" or "reduced to scrap" with no middle ground.

And as I said, I really don't want to see FFG go the route of KOTOR2 and split the various modfications out into several different items, as using the crystal alone is ultimately the simplest solution for addressing the ability to modify a lightsaber, even if it grates on some folks' sense of design aesthetic.

Rakaydos' post shows a major problem with "just make the hilt be modified" as you wind up with some crystals that get a huge stack of bonuses (Barab Ingot and Krayt Dragon Pearl are the biggest offenders in that respect) while the hilts all become fairly generic in terms of what modifiations they offer.

Rakaydos' post shows a major problem with "just make the hilt be modified" as you wind up with some crystals that get a huge stack of bonuses (Barab Ingot and Krayt Dragon Pearl are the biggest offenders in that respect) while the hilts all become fairly generic in terms of what modifiations they offer.

And even then I had to get imaginative for the shoto, pike and doublesaber for their only unique upgrades. Still. if anyone has additional ideas, I''m open to suggestions.

Some of the suggestions rakaydos made just are a little over thought.

My suggestion which I breifly made above and Dono illustrated) is to find the common elements of all the crystals. What do they all basically possess to some degree.

Damage mods.

Viscious mods

Crit Mods

Improved Emitter

Base mod: viscious +1

Mod options: Viscious mod +1, 2 damage mod +1, Crit mod +1

Cost: 2000

HP: 2

Barab ingot

Base Mod: Damage 6, crit 3, Breach 1, Burn 1, Sunder

Mod options: 2 Burn +1,

Cost: 15000

Ilum

Base Mod: Damage 6, crit 2, Breach 1, Sunder

Mod options: 2 Damage +1

Cost: 9000

Etc.

This does have the side effect of increasing the potential crit rating for some crystals, just in the above, but I'm Ok with that as going from 3 to 2 is useful, but not game breaking, IMO.

It also makes the crystals them selves more clear in what they actually offer. (comparable is the word I was looking for)

Then, use discipline to mod the crystals if you want, as it divides the rewards into two sets of skills, requiring both to master the saber fully as an item, but gives the dabler more power and more options.

Didn't one of them also get Breach +1? Or am I imagining things again?

If only one did, then I would say that's not a common upgrade. EDIT: and yes, the sapith has that.

I hope that my above post illustrates how using the force to improve the crystals gives you (usually) different outcomes than just modding the emitter to be better.

My favorite example of this is the lorrdian crystal. I don't know how much crystal polish it takes to make the beam more deflective (that seems more like the crystal and the wielder bonding through the force), but I'm sure a good tech could tighten up that beam dispersal problem for better crits.

If you're doing that then they should all get the same number of mods, say 3?

So Ilum would get 1 more damage bonus, Dragite users would make a choice on it's third mod, Barab gets another Burn.. etc.

you could, but the crystals aren't all equal now. why would they be after this.

Some crystals are simply going to be better than others. For goodness sake, ilum has 7 potential mods on it RAW. where Barab has only 4. it's not about crystal parity to me.

The above suggestion preserves the relative power of all the crystals as they are, RAW, with the exception of potentially lowering some crit threats below 3.

you could, but the crystals aren't all equal now. why would they be after this.

Some crystals are simply going to be better than others. For goodness sake, ilum has 7 potential mods on it RAW. where Barab has only 4. it's not about crystal parity to me.

The above suggestion preserves the relative power of all the crystals as they are, RAW, with the exception of potentially lowering some crit threats below 3.

uh... Ilum didn't lose any damage mods.

2 from emitter, 2 from crystal. 2+2=4.

Also, I never said "pure". Really pretty sure about that. I said "parity" which is a horse of another color.

I actually went out of my way not to change the power level of the crystals, except with the crit mod, which I did, because i don't think any base crystal should have a crit rating higher than 3. I'm not married to that fact, but it just feels...wrong.

And no one has to like this idea at all. I'm not saying it's brilliant, or right, or anything. The more we discuss these things, the better we can figure out what our positions are and what we actually like and why we like them, instead of knee jerking and bickering at each other about canon.

EDIT: where my suggestion falls down of course is a crystal like dantari, which would functionally get no mods (and actually benefit from viscious mods on the emitter). So it's not a perfect 1:1. But Dantari has the most unique crystal effect anyway, so that may not actually be a total loss, and a reduction of 1 point of damage from it's base stat could make up for the potential viscious mods that could get added in. Again, it's more art than science with these, as balance between the crystals isn't actually something that I think many if anyone was really worried about. sure you don't want a kaibur crystal in player hands, but otherwise...

2 from emitter, 2 from crystal. 2+2=4.

yeah, that could work. I'd still like to see the crystals be "balanced" some how, making them equally precious.

Granted for my game I'm doing that. I'll be ignoring gemstone costs, if they want anything other than the Synthetic crystal they'll start with access to (Base Saber stats, not moddable) it'll be a multi-mission affair.

I have to say I like the idea of breaking up the upgrades. Makes things better. 1 each upgrade will be easier and achievable. even with a little skill. And 2 they make sense. It is about the tying everything together with the force. not just the crystal.

Isn't the point of keeping most mods on the crystal specifically that lightsabers are extremely powerful and rare weapons? It isn't supposed to be easy and low risk to totally kit out the saber. Keeping mods on the crystal also keeps a story element alive for the duration of the game, ie finding more crystals since any other piece of the weapon is fairly common to come by. With the new update stating the crystals can be salvaged they've removed the risk of losing all the work put into the weapon which is not something that can be said for other weapons.