Another advantage in using emitters is that you can have an unstable emitter and compressed emitter (for those FU fans, but also because these are nice generic emitter ideas, rather than tying them to specific materials or locations). This way, you can vary up the options in emitter, but at the opportunity cost of which emitter you didn't take.

One thing I would like to see if this option did get taken by FFG, is that all the crystals should have more unique abilities on them. Nothing wrong with Ilum, but I feel like it is the Mary sue of these crystals. whole lot of damage, nothing that makes it special, except getting crit 1 (which is SILLY )

Ah, thanks for pointing that out. Now I know why my techie player hasn't been playing with multiple levels of a mod yet. I might have let him get away with murder as far as that goes. I do admit that he gets pretty creative with how he puts his workbenches together. But back to the matter at hand, the crystals are good as written, though the Ilum crystal does make getting the max out of it just about impossible. Maybe emitters to offset that some could work, but I'd like to see some more crystal types.

Another advantage in using emitters is that you can have an unstable emitter and compressed emitter (for those FU fans, but also because these are nice generic emitter ideas, rather than tying them to specific materials or locations). This way, you can vary up the options in emitter, but at the opportunity cost of which emitter you didn't take.

One thing I would like to see if this option did get taken by FFG, is that all the crystals should have more unique abilities on them. Nothing wrong with Ilum, but I feel like it is the Mary sue of these crystals. whole lot of damage, nothing that makes it special, except getting crit 1 (which is SILLY )

This is what I was going for. I'd love to see some fan written and reviewed mods - not just for lightsabers. FFG may not use them, but I think if we put a thing in there that the toned down crystals should be used with these emitters it might make for a good fan-splat-book.

So if you're adding emitters, would a Shoto blade be a hilt or an emitter? It reduces damage and improves maneuverability (accurate/defensive) with a shorter blade- it seems like it could be a fit for an emitter type.

Shoto would be hilt (actually, a shoto would be a different weapon entirely, as a double saber is IMO, but in this paradigm, it would be hilt if not a separate weapon).

EDIT: to elaborate, a shoto has specific game effects on the crystals base damage that IMO are inappropriate for an attachment (though if there is a game precendent for that I am not remembering). Also, the shoto hilts were smaller, designed for lightness and nimble action, as well as catering to the smaller fisted species. So I see it as more of a different weapon type than a hilt or emitter combination. just my POV.

Shoto would be hilt (actually, a shoto would be a different weapon entirely, as a double saber is IMO, but in this paradigm, it would be hilt if not a separate weapon).

EDIT: to elaborate, a shoto has specific game effects on the crystals base damage that IMO are inappropriate for an attachment (though if there is a game precendent for that I am not remembering). Also, the shoto hilts were smaller, designed for lightness and nimble action, as well as catering to the smaller fisted species. So I see it as more of a different weapon type than a hilt or emitter combination. just my POV.

One of the problems with how modifications work with modding the crystal is on a failure you can no longer put whatever you were trying to do into the crystal. Irritating on a rifle mod. But when it is a 10,000 credit crystal...ummm thats a serious problem. Not like you can just swap for a new one very easily. That really is unacceptable.

unacceptable, or a consequence of tinkering with an extremely rare and potent piece of equipment? Works both ways, depending on your view of where sabers fit into the framework of the twilight years of the empire.

The problem is that this tinkering is pretty clearly expected by the developers.

If the mods were adding something above and beyond, then failing to beef up a lightsaber wouldn't be so bad. It is clear, though, that the baseline crystal stats are "starter" numbers and modding is necessary to bring a crystal up to par.

The problem is that this tinkering is pretty clearly expected by the developers.

If the mods were adding something above and beyond, then failing to beef up a lightsaber wouldn't be so bad. It is clear, though, that the baseline crystal stats are "starter" numbers and modding is necessary to bring a crystal up to par.

I think it also partly depends on which crystals the players choose to take or the GM makes available.

If given the choice between an Ilum crystal or a Krayt Dragon pearl, I'd probably go with the dragon pearl, as it's a freaking kick-ass crystal without modifications (Damage 9, Crit 1, Vicious 1), and it only takes 2 modifications (+1 damage, +1 Vicious) to get a 'saber with a Krayt Dragon Pearl to have the exact same performance as the EotE/AoR, lightsaber, with the choice for extra ranks of Vicious being icing on the cake. Even a Mephite crystal is generally a better option than the Ilum crystal in terms of damage output, starting with a higher base damage though it does have the "detected by Force users using Sense" aspect that could make it risky for 'saber-monkeys trying to keep a low profile.

True, both of them cost more than the Ilum crystal, but it could very well be a worth-while investment for a 'saber-monkey that's not interested in investing lots of XP into Mechanics to get their lightsaber "up to par" or prefers to stick to the EU background material of a 'saber being a "personal object" and not something to be handed off to the party's Mechanics guru to have upgraded.

@ Doc: I suppose that's really subjective interpretation of "par." Not saying you're wrong, but what is par for damage, especially with the breach category?

Because every other melee combatant has damage that is less consistent, since they have to contend with soak, but they also can gain talents to up their damage, and pump their brawn for more damage? so I don't know how much the poor breach, sunder, high crit wielding saber monkey's are below par on damage dealing, even w/o mods. Plus they can acquire better crystals, sans mods.

Now, the above is said with a tone that I don't even exactly agree with, but before we discuss being over/under par, it would be good to define par.

That is a valid point that with Breach 1, even a basic unmodified Ilum crystal is still a solid performer in terms of damage output, since in most instances the attacker is dealing at least 7 damage to their opponent, which is more than enough to take down a minion, and a single modficiation lowers the crit rating to 1, making it far more likely to take out at least 2 minions with each attack (1 success to hit, 1 Advantage to trigger a crit). Two hits with a Damage 6, Breach 1 weapon will be sufficient to defeat most Rivals assuming just a single uncancelled success remains on the attack roll, and it probably won't take more than two hits to defeat tougher Rivals given the odds of generating more than one uncancelled success on a dice pool of 2Y1G vs. 2P.

As a point of comparison, a Brawn 4 character with a vibro-ax is going to have a base damage output of 8 on a successful hit (again presuming 1 uncancelled success), which is a point higher, but they've only got Pierce 2, meaning that their target is going to likely to benefit from a couple points of Soak, which in turn reduces their per-swing damage output in constrast to an unmodified Ilum crystal.

Thebearisdriving is right that there needs to be an accepted definition of "par" in terms of lightsaber damage. Personally, I'm thinking the unmodified Ilum crystal is just fine to use as "par" for lightsaber combat performance, with the EotE/AoR versions being more akin to high-end, high-performance luxury sports cars.

My first thought is that "par" is closer to the EotE/AoR versions – 10 damage, 1 crit, vicious 2.

I do think that it is higher than your average vibroweapon, considering the much higher rarity and cost. For that level of investment, a vibroaxe could be completely tricked out with attachments and mods.

That said, the Inquisitor stats in the Adversary section list baseline Ilum crystal sabers for equipment. Maybe the base model is the expectation.

So then, what does everyone think a "standard" lightsaber should do? (I'm sure this will certainly not end in flames )

My first thought is that "par" is closer to the EotE/AoR versions – 10 damage, 1 crit, vicious 2.

As I noted in my prior post, I'd call that the high-end of the spectrum in terms of lightsaber performance. A Damage 10 weapon with Breach 1 is pretty much going to wreck just about any opponent you hit, taking out at least 2 minions in a group per swing (3 if you have an Advantage to drop on triggering a critical).

I truthfully do think that the basic lightsaber as statted out on page 125 is what the "par" value of a lightsaber should be.

I'm with Donovan, the unmodified Illum lightsaber, IE the basic lightsaber, is my personal baseline for lightsabers,

One question, should we always be assuming the player finds a crystal in its raw (or RAW) state? Perhaps they find a saber that already has a modification or two completed? May make sense for the Empire period since most sources of crystal are under heavy guard/quarantine that many crystals the players come across are after-market...in particular Illum. Of course, the GM could also include 'flawed' crystals that can't be modded beyond certain stats etc for lower prices.

One question, should we always be assuming the player finds a crystal in its raw (or RAW) state? Perhaps they find a saber that already has a modification or two completed? May make sense for the Empire period since most sources of crystal are under heavy guard/quarantine that many crystals the players come across are after-market...in particular Illum. Of course, the GM could also include 'flawed' crystals that can't be modded beyond certain stats etc for lower prices.

From the book, I get the feeling that the default assumption of finding a crystal is much like acquiring a weapon or armor attachment, in that you only get the "base version" of that attachment, and any modifications are made after the fact by the character.

That's not to say a GM couldn't introduce a crystal with a few modifications already made, particularly if it's an adventure reward. The GM for one of the games I'm in had said that if he'd had the Force and Destiny material in hand when running a modified version of "Echoes of the Jedi" for our group, he'd have considered awarding my PC a pre-modified Ilum crystal for use in his personally-built lightsaber, but opted to go with an unmodified Mephite crystal as he felt that was more suiting for a notable reward for completing a set of proto-Trails and proving the applicant to be worthy of becoming a Jedi. That and I'm sure he's waiting for a chance to use that "shows up to the Sense power" aspect of the crystal at some point down the road.

Or have the group that would jack one of the 10,000 credit lightsabers, and sell off the parts. Which is what my smuggler did, which is going to really tick off the Artisan when he realizes what the smuggler did.

My first thought is that "par" is closer to the EotE/AoR versions – 10 damage, 1 crit, vicious 2.

I do think that it is higher than your average vibroweapon, considering the much higher rarity and cost. For that level of investment, a vibroaxe could be completely tricked out with attachments and mods.

Yup. A tricked-out Vibro-axe can be +3 damage, Accurate 2, Crit 1, Pierce 4, Vicious 3. When used by a Marauder with 5 Brawn, that’s base 8 damage, plus successes. Pierce 4 isn’t nearly as good as Breach 1, but it’s not too shabby against the majority of opponents.

That said, the Inquisitor stats in the Adversary section list baseline Ilum crystal sabers for equipment. Maybe the base model is the expectation.

So then, what does everyone think a "standard" lightsaber should do? (I'm sure this will certainly not end in flames )

IMO, you’re right — the base that should be compared against is the "standard" lightsaber as defined in EotE and AoR.

My first thought is that "par" is closer to the EotE/AoR versions – 10 damage, 1 crit, vicious 2.

As I noted in my prior post, I'd call that the high-end of the spectrum in terms of lightsaber performance. A Damage 10 weapon with Breach 1 is pretty much going to wreck just about any opponent you hit, taking out at least 2 minions in a group per swing (3 if you have an Advantage to drop on triggering a critical).

It’s high-end, yes. But sometimes "high end" is actually the standard by which everything else is measured.

The problem is that this tinkering is pretty clearly expected by the developers.

It's a balance. The Tinkerers get some extra damage and Qualities on their sabers, the Killers get Saber Talents and the Force Users just choke everyone out.

And that in a nut shell is why I think Dono's power-munchkinism of switching modding Sabers to Discipline is a bad idea.

Except what's stopping the 'saber-monkeys from just foisting their lightsabers off on the "tinkerers" to get those crazy damage bonuses to begin with?

Per the rules as currently written, nothing is different about the 'saber crystals as attachments in terms of who can modify them or who gets the benefits. In that respect, it's no different than the Hired Gun/Maruader handing his vibro-ax with the mono-molecular edge of to the Mechanic and telling them to modify the heck out of it, or the Soldier/Sharpshooter telling the same Mechanic to go to town on his heavy blaster rifle, starting with that weapon sling before moving on to the augmented spin barrel. Closest you get to "doing it themselves with no help" is a Wookiee modifying their bowcaster, which is stated in the fluff to be a process that's generally very personal for them, and that it's either the owner or the original builder (who are sometimes one and the same) being the one to do all the modifications rather than hand it off to somebody else.

So really, by keeping the skill to modify a 'saber crystal is mechanics, all you're doing is adding an extra step to the process, with the 'saber-monkeys still able to get their tricked-out lightsabers. Only difference is that instead of it being something they do themselves (which is in keeping with the background fluff regarding Jedi and the construction/maintanence of a lightsaber), it's something they simply hand off to another party member. End result is still the same: 'saber-monkey has their tricked out weapon, didn't pay any more or less to accomplish it (unless the party mechanic is a particularly greedy or conniving SOB), and didn't have to invest any XP in Mechanics to get their tricked-out weapon than the Marauder did for their tricked-out vibro-ax or the Sharpshooter did for their tricked out heavy blaster rifle.

Except what's stopping the 'saber-monkeys from just foisting their lightsabers off on the "tinkerers" to get those crazy damage bonuses to begin with?

Per the rules as currently written, nothing is different about the 'saber crystals as attachments in terms of who can modify them or who gets the benefits.

Correct. And I have a problem with that. A major problem.

In that respect, it's no different than the Hired Gun/Maruader handing his vibro-ax with the mono-molecular edge of to the Mechanic and telling them to modify the heck out of it, or the Soldier/Sharpshooter telling the same Mechanic to go to town on his heavy blaster rifle, starting with that weapon sling before moving on to the augmented spin barrel.

Correct. And for "normal" weapons, that’s fine. But for anything that’s supposed to be an intensely personal weapon that you made yourself, that just doesn’t work. So, we have to find a different mechanism.

Closest you get to "doing it themselves with no help" is a Wookiee modifying their bowcaster, which is stated in the fluff to be a process that's generally very personal for them, and that it's either the owner or the original builder (who are sometimes one and the same) being the one to do all the modifications rather than hand it off to somebody else.

And the lightsaber is supposed to be the most personal weapon in the game. It’s not just a matter of modifying it yourself, it’s a matter of making it from the ground up and using the force to help you put it together in the right way.

So, we need to find a different mechanism.

So really, by keeping the skill to modify a 'saber crystal is mechanics, all you're doing is adding an extra step to the process, with the 'saber-monkeys still able to get their tricked-out lightsabers. Only difference is that instead of it being something they do themselves (which is in keeping with the background fluff regarding Jedi and the construction/maintanence of a lightsaber), it's something they simply hand off to another party member. End result is still the same: 'saber-monkey has their tricked out weapon, didn't pay any more or less to accomplish it (unless the party mechanic is a particularly greedy or conniving SOB), and didn't have to invest any XP in Mechanics to get their tricked-out weapon than the Marauder did for their tricked-out vibro-ax or the Sharpshooter did for their tricked out heavy blaster rifle.

As I said, I have a major problem with this. We need to find a different mechanism for making and modifying lightsabers.

That said, I don’t know that Discipline is the right solution. Maybe the right solution isn’t throwing out everything that is currently written and going with something totally different.

Maybe we just need to tweak the system a little, instead of throwing out the bathwater, the baby, the bowl, the table, the door, and all the rest of the house components through the window.

I don’t know what the answer is. I know that the current mechanism as proposed by the game designers/developers IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY .

Except what's stopping the 'saber-monkeys from just foisting their lightsabers off on the "tinkerers" to get those crazy damage bonuses to begin with?

Unless you, oh I don't know, decide to keep with one part of the fluff and make Lightsabers have to be modded by their owners. You know that part of the fluff you keep claiming is really, really important.

Ok, here's another idea off the top of my head --

The modifications that come from the crystal itself should be personal -- reflecting the journey of the character -- I've suggested using XP before (can't remember if it was here or Dono's original thread) -- but there is another resource that describes that journey and the character's dedication to it... Morality.

What if the crystal's 'mods' were tied to a character's Morality in some way?

Each crystal would have modifications that are earned at certain base Morality thresholds, and then again for certain incremental thresholds. The incremental thresholds could be positive or negative . These mods are lost if they drop out (or rise above) that threshold range.

This would give Morality another aspect of the character to affect. It could even go to explain why the bad-guy's sabers are always burning towards the magenta spectrum.

Or, each crystal, could have modifications for both positive and negative ranges of Morality -- indicating that the owner is purifying or corrupting the crystal (purifying for a Sith crystal might actually bring draw-backs, and vice versa for a Jedi crystal).

(I still like the idea of splitting out the emitter, or focusing lens, and have that add some basic mods [damage, vicious, crit].)

Ok, have at it.