The dual nature of the M3-A is part of what sold me on buying wave 6 at all, the other was the stuff for the Firespray and HWK in the MW box.

4 M3-A's means I can either put cannons on them, or mix them in with HWK's, Y's Z's or Boba. That's a lot of options for a fairly small amount of cash.

I want to address the idea that all pilot abilities cost N points, where N is usually or always 1. It's fun to imagine there's such a rigid cost structure, but it's violated pretty substantially in every wave. Howlrunner is +7 PS and +6 points from the Academy Pilot. Han is obviously a special case, but he's +7 PS and 19 points from an Outer Rim Smuggler. Ten Numb is +6 PS and 9 points from Blue Squadron, and Major Rhymer is even more extreme. Whisper is +4 PS and +7 points away from Sigma Squadron.

I'm sure TIE Fighters, TIE Interceptors, TIE Bombers, Lambdas, and Phantoms all break the "rule" on the Imperial side, and so do Falcons, A-wings, B-wings, HWKs, and (I think) Outriders on the Rebel side. So really the only thing you can say for sure about the relationship between Serissu's cost and the cost of the cheapest Scyk is that Serissu is more expensive.

Now I'll grant that she's probably about 5-8 points more expensive, because I think the Scyk can't be more expensive than a Refit A-wing and it can't be cheaper than an Academy Pilot. But that doesn't really help nail things down.

I'm guessing 13 or at most 14 points for the PS2 pilot.

The PS8 pilot is 20 points. If the pilots have an aggressive cost structure like TIE Fighters, then that would make for 1 point per PS, so that's 14 points at PS2. If the PS8 pilot has a 1+ cost for his skill relative to the TIE Fighter progression (i.e. he has the standard progression as all other ships), then the PS2 is 13 points.

But beyond just that, the ship has virtually the same stats as a TIE Fighter, which costs 12 points at PS1. And it will be competing with the PS1 Scum Z-95 which is assumed to be 12 points. So 14 points at PS2 is going to be a really tough sell unless it has a dial that is significantly better than a TIE Fighter, and that's already asking a lot. FFG designers said that you could run it as a swarmy ship, which implies a low point cost, so that really should be 14 tops.

Edit: as a separate piece of commentary, I don't see the Heavy Scyk modification getting much competitive use. You want to spend upgrade points on ships that are already fairly expensive, so the incremental cost is lower, and more importantly, the ship will survive long enough to get good mileage out of the points spent. For example, spending 9 additional points to get a Heavy Laser Cannon on the ship is going to suddenly feel like a complete waste when your 3 hit point ship gets 1-shot before it can even fire. I'm sure we will see some nice cannons in this expansion, but they will likely be more useful on other ships like the Firespray or the Outrider than on a cheaper, more fragile platform.

Edit edit: I just noticed three Ion Tokens in the pack. That's interesting. Maybe 1 of the 2 unspoiled cannons has an AoE effect. Flechette Cannon will presumably deal stress, so we will have to see what the "Mango Cannon" does. (Yes, I am going to keep calling it a Mango Cannon until it's fully spoiled! )

I am on board with the thought process of this ship costing 12 points, 13 at the very top end for the PS 2 generic. Unless this thing has some sort of crazy all green dial I can not see a 3 hit point ship costing that much more.

Ahh, a good reminder of another reason to get this pack. I need the GG target lock.

I do think 12 pts for the PS 2 seems reasonable. I do believe the Z-95 will have the illicit upgrade slot to help differentiate it. Though, secondary thought, 4 HLCs are fun, but 5 Proton Rockets will be fun as well...

There's a rather long GenCon interview with the FFG designers where they say that they don't use formulae such as this, and that they value pilot abilites and pilot skill A: differently from ship to ship, and B: differently to in the past.

Even that being true (which is not, since their pattern is pretty consistent except for the rare exceptions that precisely confirm those "formulaes they don't use"), a naked basic Scyk is not that much different from a naked basic TIE fighter. Unless it has a truly insane dial, their prices have to remain in a similar frame in order not to produce balance disturbances.

"Even that being true (which is not, since their pattern is pretty consistent except for the rare exceptions that precisely confirm those "formulaes they don't use")"

Watch the interview. Point costs come about through playtesting and the designers' knowledge of the game. Formulae hold well in Wave 1 and get worse and worse as the designers get more and more experienced.

"a naked basic Scyk is not that much different from a naked basic TIE fighter. Unless it has a truly insane dial, their prices have to remain in a similar frame in order not to produce balance disturbances."

Nonviability in a particular role is not a balance disturbance. Unturreted Y-wings aren't that viable but they don't thorw off the game balance.

Similar, yes, but unless they want to supplant the TIE fighter as Swarm King (which I doubt) we're unlikely to be looking at 12 (the minimum cost for a ship according to the interview). 13 or 14 I could see for the generic, 15 or 16 for the PS5 ace.

Bear in mind AntiHowlrunner is 20 points for what is tbh a worse ability than Howlrunner: unless there's to be a massive gap we're not looking at low costs for basic Scyks.

Another relevant question, which pilot ability is worth more, Howlrunner's or Serissu's? Howlrunner is +7PS over the PS1, at +6 point cost, as many of you have pointed out. This makes her cheaper than the standard pilot skill progression for most other ships, and this is reflected by most of the other TIE fighter pilots as well, generic or unique. Will Serissu be the same? She is +6 PS over the basic model and costs 20 points. Will her pilot ability reflect a point premium making the base 13-14, or will she and possibly the other pilots be cheaper, making the base cost 15?

So, sound off people. Who has the better pilot ability?

I would probably say Howlrunner, as an improved offense gets you leaps and bounds in this game and has kept the TIE Swarm as a mainstay juggernaut since wave 1. Having said that, defensive upgrades are quite valuable, and are actually relatively rare compared to offensive boosts. Not to mention, Serissu, like Howlrunner, creates and area effect, which means it is best benefited by a large number of allies in close formation with her.

Both function quite similarly. Offensive boosts are powerful, but common. Defense dice can be quite unreliable, particularly in that most often, players spend action tokens offensively, leaving unmodified defense. Serissu affords her close allies a permanent defensive boost until she is cleared, which is currently unprecedented in this game. There are pilots AND upgrades that provide offensive buffs, and ones that can affect their own ships and ones that can affect other ships. Defense boosts that affect allies are quite rare and therefore can be quite valuable. Keeping your offensive ships up can make them provide more offense, after all.

Thoughts?

That "heavy scyk" card is pretty much an inverse "chardaan refit". That said, the scyk has 1 less shield than an A-wing, so I think 13-14 points is reasonable, and I'd lean towards 13. That puts the base heavy with HLC version at 22 points. So, compare this thing to a B-wing for the cost or even a base Phantom for a 4-dice comparison, and I think 22 points seems reasonable for something that can be 1-shot by Keyan Farlander all day every day. In fact, I am leaning towards this HLC upgrade not being that useful in the low PS ships because they're so fragile.

Edit: Just thought I'd add, there are new cannons coming out, so one of these might be a better fit than the expensive HLC on the scyk. Also, you could add proton rockets with the heavy card, which would be a nice offensive boost. I guess what I'm trying to say is: HLC is probably not the ordinance that will be ideal on these, if one assumes that they don't have slow rolling maneuvers (i.e. 1-forward and 1-bank).

13 seems by the far the most likely/reasonable point cost assuming a dial that's more or less a TIE. Given that it's already 1 less PS than an Obsidian at that point, getting taxed a bit for versatility is ok, but any more than a point and it's going to be inefficient against the Z. Paying for all the upgrades with a cheap baseline seems the way to go.

Another relevant question, which pilot ability is worth more, Howlrunner's or Serissu's?

I'll have to MathWing this at some point soon.

I'm going for 14 points with a dial somewhere between a TIE fighter and an A-wing.

Add Ion cannon, 18 or19 points, 3 attack, 5 Ion cannon swarm, and you have points to upgrade one to ps 8 version. Profit (and see your oponents leaving map a lot

OMG I have stated this several times but I will state it again since no one ever listens to me: The PS8 pilot is 20 points. Assuming this ship follows standard protocol, subtract 6 points to get the PS2 generic. That makes it 14 points cheapest. The only variables are A. The pilot may pay for his ability (unlikely) and B. It's a trump ship like the Defender where 1 PS doesn't equal 1 point(again unlikely). I just don't understand why so much speculation goes into this when it is almost a given that it will be 14 points.

Rather simple, considering how powerful Howlrunner is, it is very easy to think that maybe, just maybe, a reverse Howlrunner may be costed a little extra. Especially since the Scum is essentially going to have 2 swarm ships. 12-13 pts for the PS 2 makes sense. Especially when 14 pts doesn't look like a good deal.

Just because the TIE Fighters don't pay for their ability, it doesn't mean other swarm ships won't (see the Rebel Z-95).

14 points due to the PS bump, TL and trading a hull point for a shield vs an Academy TIE.

The top pilot is 20 points and has a Howlrunner-like ability, so the generic couldn't be more thanl 14. Also,

if it were 15-16 points would make the title completely unviable (Is that a word?).

BTW the way MajorJuggler, the three ions in the pack is because the Ion Cannon that it comes with.

BTW the way MajorJuggler, the three ions in the pack is because the Ion Cannon that it comes with.

Yes but does it need three tokens? Why not just one?

we will have to see what the "Mango Cannon" does. (Yes, I am going to keep calling it a Mango Cannon until it's fully spoiled! )

Looking at it, I believe what it lets you do, throw a mango at the other guy for every hit you land on his ship. That's clear a mango shaped icon at the bottom of that card.

BTW the way MajorJuggler, the three ions in the pack is because the Ion Cannon that it comes with.

Yes but does it need three tokens? Why not just one?

Because FFG loves giving us extra tokens. I mean, do we really a minimum of three different sets of ID tokens in every expansion?

BTW the way MajorJuggler, the three ions in the pack is because the Ion Cannon that it comes with.

Yes but does it need three tokens? Why not just one?

Possibly the PS6 pilot.

BTW the way MajorJuggler, the three ions in the pack is because the Ion Cannon that it comes with.

Yes but does it need three tokens? Why not just one?

Because FFG loves giving us extra tokens. I mean, do we really a minimum of three different sets of ID tokens in every expansion?

This actually makes sense, because if you have 2+ of a ship, you are more than likely going to play multiple generics at some point. If each ship only came with on set of ID tokens all the same number, you would be short. Think back to Wave 1, you could buy one coreset and five extra TIE Fighter expansions to play a TIE Swarm. In that situation, if you only had one per ship per expansion, you would have ID Tokens 1-4 when you need 1-6 or better 1-7.

Yes, every expansion should have at least 3 full sets of ID tokens per ship.

You need extra Ion tokens because large ships need two before it starts working, so if you are facing few large ships you need more ion tokens. FFG does its best to give everything you need with its ships.

OMG I have stated this several times but I will state it again since no one ever listens to me: The PS8 pilot is 20 points. Assuming this ship follows standard protocol, subtract 6 points to get the PS2 generic. That makes it 14 points cheapest. The only variables are A. The pilot may pay for his ability (unlikely) and B. It's a trump ship like the Defender where 1 PS doesn't equal 1 point(again unlikely). I just don't understand why so much speculation goes into this when it is almost a given that it will be 14 points.

OMG I have stated this several times but I will state it again since no one ever listens to me: The PS8 pilot is 20 points. Assuming this ship follows standard protocol, subtract 6 points to get the PS2 generic. That makes it 14 points cheapest. The only variables are A. The pilot may pay for his ability (unlikely) and B. It's a trump ship like the Defender where 1 PS doesn't equal 1 point(again unlikely). I just don't understand why so much speculation goes into this when it is almost a given that it will be 14 points.

+1 Apparently I reached my like quota.