Funny think about that Falcon + 3P0 + MF upgrade... TIE Swarm eats it alive!

As we talked about on our show, I do not believe that TIE Swarm is dead and buried but rather Formation TIE Swarm has a bad match up against a TIE Phantom. EVERY OTHER list it is faced up against it is still a great list to play! I think it is just a matter of changing tactics when that Phantom player is on the other side of the table from you. Break up those formations, make sure that there are firing arcs all over the board. Use that PS 1 Academies to block de-cloaking lanes and force the Phantom to a corner of the board where you can get shots on it from all over.

Myself, I am doing the combo, Phantom + Mini Swarm and so far, it has had some great results vs BOTH lists!

Rock = Falcon, Swarm = Paper, Phantom = Scissors. At least currently.

Now I know that some swarms have beaten the Phantom (France Nationals comes to mind) so it can be done. The hard part is the 2 attack guns vs 4 defense. With only 2 attack dice you really need to be able to concentrate fire, but that's hard to do against the super arc dodging Phantom. Running a Hyprid swarm may be the next thing.

The Glut of Super Falcons is directly related to how potent the Phantom is. Fear of the Phantom has caused this. Once phantoms thin down, then you will see more list diversity. Which is just the right time for the Phantom to jump back in.

I think something along these lines could give the Phantom lists a run for their money (and eat the Falcon lists most of the time):

Love the show, hands down my favourite X-Wing podcast, thanks Kelvan and friends for putting in the time and effort to give us such awesome content! (I once ran a Warhammer 'cast, and I know firsthand the huge time investment to run a podcast, everyone should be extremely grateful to you guys for doing such a good job!)

My one piece of criticism..... PLEASE stop complaining about the Phantom. We understand your position in the argument, the rants arent necessary. Great to hear Doug on this episode as the voice of reason- the sky is NOT falling, the meta is just shifting which will keep the game fresh. Phantom lists will drop in popularity when it becomes clear that they are not reliable enough to win a multi game tournament (since so many anti phantom lists are becoming prevelant!). If FFG didnt release imteresting meta-changing ships like the phantom the game would become very stale! Perhaps now Doug has told you his opinion you can bury the phantom rants for a couple of months and see what happens?

One piece of criticism guys - you aren't complaining about the Phantom ENOUGH. Please give us more. I think an entire episode dedicated to Phantom hate would be awesome.

Episode 6 is more Falcon centric, that being said. If you think there are so many falcons winning has nothing to do with the Phantom you're kidding yourself.

What we want is a list that will handle both the falcon and phantom and will hopefully reopen the meta. Looking at the Major Juggler stats show the sharp decrease in list diversity since wave 4. I'd like to bring that back.

I wholeheartedly disagree. The ability to guarantee two Evade results per turn is tremendously powerful on a ship like a Falcon. It eats small ship builds alive, meaning you need to be able to swarm it with enough attacks that the loss of one from C3-PO doesn't matter. Add in Predator and Gunner, and even the loss of your Focus token isn't a big deal. You can Evade or Boost out of arc every turn and still get a partial reroll on each attack.

For sure 3po is a strong addition to the falcon. Close to an auto include at this point. It forces the need for a lot of shots to cut through the evades, just as you said.

Episode 6 is more Falcon centric, that being said. If you think there are so many falcons winning has nothing to do with the Phantom you're kidding yourself.

What we want is a list that will handle both the falcon and phantom and will hopefully reopen the meta. Looking at the Major Juggler stats show the sharp decrease in list diversity since wave 4. I'd like to bring that back.

If you can think of any other way you would like the data to get sliced then let me know. I have 2 more weightings I want to apply first though: equal weighting, and winners only. Then conditional success: (weighted average) / (equal weighting)

I think we ought to bring you in at some point to talk about the trends in the various waves. I'll think on some questions I might want to know with those results.

I think we ought to bring you in at some point to talk about the trends in the various waves. I'll think on some questions I might want to know with those results.

Sounds like fun! Evil Ed also invited me for an interview onto his Nova Squadron radio show, hopefully will be recording next week. I'm a big fan of both Nova and Scum and Villainy.

Love the show, hands down my favourite X-Wing podcast, thanks Kelvan and friends for putting in the time and effort to give us such awesome content! (I once ran a Warhammer 'cast, and I know firsthand the huge time investment to run a podcast, everyone should be extremely grateful to you guys for doing such a good job!)

My one piece of criticism..... PLEASE stop complaining about the Phantom. We understand your position in the argument, the rants arent necessary. Great to hear Doug on this episode as the voice of reason- the sky is NOT falling, the meta is just shifting which will keep the game fresh. Phantom lists will drop in popularity when it becomes clear that they are not reliable enough to win a multi game tournament (since so many anti phantom lists are becoming prevelant!). If FFG didnt release imteresting meta-changing ships like the phantom the game would become very stale! Perhaps now Doug has told you his opinion you can bury the phantom rants for a couple of months and see what happens?

One piece of criticism guys - you aren't complaining about the Phantom ENOUGH. Please give us more. I think an entire episode dedicated to Phantom hate would be awesome.

Episode 6 is more Falcon centric, that being said. If you think there are so many falcons winning has nothing to do with the Phantom you're kidding yourself.

What we want is a list that will handle both the falcon and phantom and will hopefully reopen the meta. Looking at the Major Juggler stats show the sharp decrease in list diversity since wave 4. I'd like to bring that back.

What the phantom did was hurt the best counter to that falcon. So I guess instead of swarm centric meta we ended up with a falcon one.

Love the show, hands down my favourite X-Wing podcast, thanks Kelvan and friends for putting in the time and effort to give us such awesome content! (I once ran a Warhammer 'cast, and I know firsthand the huge time investment to run a podcast, everyone should be extremely grateful to you guys for doing such a good job!)

My one piece of criticism..... PLEASE stop complaining about the Phantom. We understand your position in the argument, the rants arent necessary. Great to hear Doug on this episode as the voice of reason- the sky is NOT falling, the meta is just shifting which will keep the game fresh. Phantom lists will drop in popularity when it becomes clear that they are not reliable enough to win a multi game tournament (since so many anti phantom lists are becoming prevelant!). If FFG didnt release imteresting meta-changing ships like the phantom the game would become very stale! Perhaps now Doug has told you his opinion you can bury the phantom rants for a couple of months and see what happens?

One piece of criticism guys - you aren't complaining about the Phantom ENOUGH. Please give us more. I think an entire episode dedicated to Phantom hate would be awesome.

Episode 6 is more Falcon centric, that being said. If you think there are so many falcons winning has nothing to do with the Phantom you're kidding yourself.

What we want is a list that will handle both the falcon and phantom and will hopefully reopen the meta. Looking at the Major Juggler stats show the sharp decrease in list diversity since wave 4. I'd like to bring that back.

Just so we're clear, I was not in any way being sarcastic in my initial post. I would seriously listen to an entire episode or more on discussion of the brokenness of the current meta.

I wholeheartedly believe that the combined effect of the Phantom and C3PO has broken the meta. The phantom pushes everyone to think turrets and high-PS, pushing out low-PS swarms. Falcons are a good answer on both PS and turret accounts, and, oh hey, look what we have here! A serious durability upgrade for the ship that most neatly addresses the Phantom threat, and isn't too shabby against swarms either? Let's fly that! And boom goes the variety.

C3-PO just isn't fun to play against, especially on a titled Falcon, because it basically takes dice out of the game. The average 3-dice attack will deal about two damage. The first ship to attack the Falcon may as well have a permanent Blinded Pilot on him. You can block the Falcon to prevent it from focusing, but then the blocking ship can't attack so you're still taking an attacker out of the equation. It forces lists where you have to plan on a way to swarm it before the game goes too long and you can't kill it.

It's worse than a Phantom because you can at least get lucky against a Phantom.

I think we ought to bring you in at some point to talk about the trends in the various waves. I'll think on some questions I might want to know with those results.

Sounds like fun! Evil Ed also invited me for an interview onto his Nova Squadron radio show, hopefully will be recording next week. I'm a big fan of both Nova and Scum and Villainy.

I can't wait to talk about all of that data and why in the world you decided to do this data mining. We are all grateful, but you have to have a gamer headache after all of that. lol

Love the show, hands down my favourite X-Wing podcast, thanks Kelvan and friends for putting in the time and effort to give us such awesome content! (I once ran a Warhammer 'cast, and I know firsthand the huge time investment to run a podcast, everyone should be extremely grateful to you guys for doing such a good job!)

My one piece of criticism..... PLEASE stop complaining about the Phantom. We understand your position in the argument, the rants arent necessary. Great to hear Doug on this episode as the voice of reason- the sky is NOT falling, the meta is just shifting which will keep the game fresh. Phantom lists will drop in popularity when it becomes clear that they are not reliable enough to win a multi game tournament (since so many anti phantom lists are becoming prevelant!). If FFG didnt release imteresting meta-changing ships like the phantom the game would become very stale! Perhaps now Doug has told you his opinion you can bury the phantom rants for a couple of months and see what happens?

One piece of criticism guys - you aren't complaining about the Phantom ENOUGH. Please give us more. I think an entire episode dedicated to Phantom hate would be awesome.

Episode 6 is more Falcon centric, that being said. If you think there are so many falcons winning has nothing to do with the Phantom you're kidding yourself.

What we want is a list that will handle both the falcon and phantom and will hopefully reopen the meta. Looking at the Major Juggler stats show the sharp decrease in list diversity since wave 4. I'd like to bring that back.

Just so we're clear, I was not in any way being sarcastic in my initial post. I would seriously listen to an entire episode or more on discussion of the brokenness of the current meta.

I wholeheartedly believe that the combined effect of the Phantom and C3PO has broken the meta. The phantom pushes everyone to think turrets and high-PS, pushing out low-PS swarms. Falcons are a good answer on both PS and turret accounts, and, oh hey, look what we have here! A serious durability upgrade for the ship that most neatly addresses the Phantom threat, and isn't too shabby against swarms either? Let's fly that! And boom goes the variety.

To your point the ability to get 3 ships (the points efficiency in the z-95 and especially the chardaan A wing are very good) along with a souped up durable falcon make it a tough road.

Great as usual. Wish ya'll were closer... Sure would be fun to talk and tangle with you guys.

I wholeheartedly believe that the combined effect of the Phantom and C3PO has broken the meta. The phantom pushes everyone to think turrets and high-PS, pushing out low-PS swarms. Falcons are a good answer on both PS and turret accounts, and, oh hey, look what we have here! A serious durability upgrade for the ship that most neatly addresses the Phantom threat, and isn't too shabby against swarms either? Let's fly that! And boom goes the variety.

I guess I don't see why Threepio was a particularly groundbreaking upgrade to the Falcon. He provides, at most, 0.625 evades per round (or, rather, he provides exactly 1 extra evade 62.5% of the time). He does so without an action, which is unmistakably a big advantage. On average, that means you have to take three rounds of focused fire for Threepio to be better than Hull Upgrade, and four rounds for him to be better than (the crew version of) Chewie.

And on the offensive side, Predator adds an extra hit a bit less than half the time--at least a similar benefit--and Outmaneuver disables Threepio most of the time. And the Defender represents a whole new entry in the class of things the Falcon really ought to worry about.

So I've been wondering lately if Threepio's psychological impact ("I just can't get through this thing's defenses!") isn't higher than his mathematical impact; is there a list that could handle a Falcon reliably before Threepio was part of the game can handle it now. Are there counterexamples I'm not thinking of?

Great as usual. Wish ya'll were closer... Sure would be fun to talk and tangle with you guys.

That would be fun. Worlds maybe?

Outstanding interview guys! Very nice work!

We appreciate it! I can't wait to release our next one. Been thinking about strong lists in today's Meta. Any good lists that can deal with a Falcon and Phantom well at the same time? (I've been thinking the Lambda is a great way to go here, but I always think that)

So I've started thinking the answer might be the Wintery Orbital Walrus. Something like:

OGP + FCS + Gunner + Tactician + EU

Howlrunner

4x Academy TIEs

It'll certainly be a huge threat to the Falcon lists.

Against the Phantom, it's less good, but still viable. The Hacksaw Shuttle is a serious threat because it can double stress the phantom, leading to a much more likely death for it if you can catch it the next round. The greatest threat to this list is probably the phantom + miniswarm though, so it's certainly not a hard counter.

I have a really really hard time getting even interceptors into the Shuttle's arc. I'd find it even harder with the Phantom in that there might be quite a few games where the shuttle has no realistic shot on the Phantom in the list. The rest of your team goes down to the phantom rather easily too, as some poor academy or two is probably going to get killed within the first few rounds.

I guess I don't see why Threepio was a particularly groundbreaking upgrade to the Falcon. He provides, at most, 0.625 evades per round (or, rather, he provides exactly 1 extra evade 62.5% of the time).

But the standard deviation is zero. In a tournament setting, anything to minimize bad luck against you is really important, no?

Three rounds? 0.625 per round * 2 rounds = 1.25 (statistically average) damage > 1 hull

4 rounds compared to Chewie crew makes sense. 4*0.625 = 2.5.

But if you have bad rolls, C-3P0 matches Chewie crew in just 2 rounds.

It's been a while sense we've done any squad reviews. So here's the Challenge to the community. Lets see your counter to both the Phantom and the Falcon. Post you squad and tell us why you think it will work.

I wholeheartedly believe that the combined effect of the Phantom and C3PO has broken the meta. The phantom pushes everyone to think turrets and high-PS, pushing out low-PS swarms. Falcons are a good answer on both PS and turret accounts, and, oh hey, look what we have here! A serious durability upgrade for the ship that most neatly addresses the Phantom threat, and isn't too shabby against swarms either? Let's fly that! And boom goes the variety.

I guess I don't see why Threepio was a particularly groundbreaking upgrade to the Falcon. He provides, at most, 0.625 evades per round (or, rather, he provides exactly 1 extra evade 62.5% of the time). He does so without an action, which is unmistakably a big advantage. On average, that means you have to take three rounds of focused fire for Threepio to be better than Hull Upgrade, and four rounds for him to be better than (the crew version of) Chewie.

And on the offensive side, Predator adds an extra hit a bit less than half the time--at least a similar benefit--and Outmaneuver disables Threepio most of the time. And the Defender represents a whole new entry in the class of things the Falcon really ought to worry about.

So I've been wondering lately if Threepio's psychological impact ("I just can't get through this thing's defenses!") isn't higher than his mathematical impact; is there a list that could handle a Falcon reliably before Threepio was part of the game can handle it now. Are there counterexamples I'm not thinking of?

That's a good point. I think it's mostly the combo of the 2 evades taking the first shot away from the enemy. I don't think 3p0 is the thing that's making falcons great. It's likely the 3-4 cheap ships that fly with it.

It's been a while sense we've done any squad reviews. So here's the Challenge to the community. Lets see your counter to both the Phantom and the Falcon. Post you squad and tell us why you think it will work.

Frogs with the good idea. Just remember these will show up 2 episodes from now as we're still sitting on our next episode since FFG decided to release dash rendar just as we recorded another episode.

I wholeheartedly believe that the combined effect of the Phantom and C3PO has broken the meta. The phantom pushes everyone to think turrets and high-PS, pushing out low-PS swarms. Falcons are a good answer on both PS and turret accounts, and, oh hey, look what we have here! A serious durability upgrade for the ship that most neatly addresses the Phantom threat, and isn't too shabby against swarms either? Let's fly that! And boom goes the variety.

I guess I don't see why Threepio was a particularly groundbreaking upgrade to the Falcon. He provides, at most, 0.625 evades per round (or, rather, he provides exactly 1 extra evade 62.5% of the time). He does so without an action, which is unmistakably a big advantage. On average, that means you have to take three rounds of focused fire for Threepio to be better than Hull Upgrade, and four rounds for him to be better than (the crew version of) Chewie.

And on the offensive side, Predator adds an extra hit a bit less than half the time--at least a similar benefit--and Outmaneuver disables Threepio most of the time. And the Defender represents a whole new entry in the class of things the Falcon really ought to worry about.

So I've been wondering lately if Threepio's psychological impact ("I just can't get through this thing's defenses!") isn't higher than his mathematical impact; is there a list that could handle a Falcon reliably before Threepio was part of the game can handle it now. Are there counterexamples I'm not thinking of?

C3-P0 + Engine Upgrade Is a great combo. If you can reduce the number of incoming attacks to 1 each round then C3-P0 is pure gold ( He looks golden after a good polish ). I think for the most part Robert your right, but C3-P0 + a few other upgrades like say Predator + gunner/Luke + EU and you have a hard target that to pin down. Yes this is a lot of points, but now we have cheap extra guns with the z95 or A-Wing with the Refit. It's a tough combo.

It's been a while sense we've done any squad reviews. So here's the Challenge to the community. Lets see your counter to both the Phantom and the Falcon. Post you squad and tell us why you think it will work.

Struggling with that now, man.

So here is the list I am running:

Echo w/VI, ACD, FCS

Howlrunner w/Swarm Tactics

Alpha

2X Academies

I played three games last night against super Chewie/Han lists and had the same results, Han or Chewie had one hull point remaining as my TIEs were trying to ping it off. I lost in the end. At some point with a list like this you need to sacrifice the Phantom to drop the shields on those YTs. Once that is done, it takes SO MUCH time to chew through the hull on those YTs.

I am thinking of going back to my trusty old TIE Swarms and just flying it differently when I see Phantoms. It really does feel like a Rock - Paper - Scissors sort of issue. I could have flown Echo better, but not much....

It's been a while sense we've done any squad reviews. So here's the Challenge to the community. Lets see your counter to both the Phantom and the Falcon. Post you squad and tell us why you think it will work.

Here's the one I posted earlier in this thread.

Howlrunner with

Veteran Instincts, Hull Upgrade

Mauler Mithel with

Veteran Instincts

Dark Curse

Backstabber with

Targeting Computer

Black Squadron Pilot

Academy Pilot

The Black Squadron Pilot can be demoted if one or two points are needed for other upgrades.

High PS to hunt Phantoms (Whisper with. VI is the only Phantom that can get its Advanced Cloaking up versus Howl and Mauler) and capable of killing the Falcon through a thousand cuts.

The low attack dice per attack (what makes it tricky to hit a cloaked Whisper) can be mitigated by Mauler and/or Backstabber.

You can still fly swarms in the current meta, just ditch Howl. All 5 named TIEs + 1 BSP leaves you enough room for two EPTs and a small initiative bid.

It's been a while sense we've done any squad reviews. So here's the Challenge to the community. Lets see your counter to both the Phantom and the Falcon. Post you squad and tell us why you think it will work.

8 Ties, 4 Academies, 4 Obsidians :

Phantom : No need for formation flying, which means you can spread out and block the phantom through sheer number of ships. If you can prevent it from getting a focus/evade token, you only need around 9 focused shots at range 2 (4 at range 1) to take it down.

Falcon : 8 ships neuter the effect of evade + C3P0 and can prevent the falcon from maneuvering by clogging the board. No Howlrunner also means no single point of failure to be targeted.

Weaknesses :

- echo : blocking doesn't work as well against a well flown echo

- another swarm with higher PS/ howlrunner

You guys think c3po is bad? Just wait till I start taking the falcon with 2 recon specialists and the falcon title alongside kyle with jan and having the falcon get 5 evade tokens each turn...

It's been a while sense we've done any squad reviews. So here's the Challenge to the community. Lets see your counter to both the Phantom and the Falcon. Post you squad and tell us why you think it will work.

I have been kicking this one around for a while, but it will have to wait for wave 5. It's a wonky Phantom list, partially inspired by Dom's Hippo Ballet. It revolves around the stress mechanic to neuter Phantoms, and Fire Control Systems to lay into Falcons. If your list exclusively prohibits any Phantoms or Falcons then disregard, but nothing like this has been spotted at Regionals. The closest was an ACD Phantom with Captain Yorr.

PTSD (Phantom Targeting Stress Disorder) (99)

Whisper + Advanced Cloaking Device + Veteran Instincts + Fire Control System + Rebel Captive (42)

Captain Yorr + Fire Control System + 2x Tactician (30)

Omicron Group Pilot + Fire Control System + Mara Jade + Intelligence Agent (27)

General comments

1. The crew on the OGP and Yorr can be swapped. I'm still trying to figure out which way is optimal. Tacticians want to be at range 2 and Mara wants to be in range 1, but you don't really want to overlap the two, otherwise Mara is redundant.
2. OGP can 0-stop but keep his action (pass stress to Yorr), Yorr green-bumps from behind to keep both Shuttles stationary. This assumes you are set up in a good position. This would encourage Yorr to be in back, suggesting that Mara should probably go on the front OGP, and punish your opponents for closing to range 1.
3. With only 2 shuttles instead of 3 like in Dom's list, you lack both firepower and positioning, so you will need to use Whisper to cover your flanks.
4. Yorr lets Whisper K-turn and retain the action. Unpredictability is a huge advantage for Phantoms.

Vs. Falcons

Against Falcons, everyone needs to latch onto the Falcon and do as much damage as possible. Remember the OGP can pull a red turn each round with Yorr around. Against PS9 Han, you need to try and position Intelligence Agent to reveal Han's dial, to optimize Whisper's decloak.

Vs. Phantoms

You win the stress game and they can't recloak with ACD. The hardest part is obviously getting them in arc, or at range 1 of Mara, or baiting them into attacking your Whisper (a gambit for sure). Conversely, Whisper can shoot at an opposing Rebel Captive and Yorr can eat the stress. R.I.P. enemy Phantoms with Rebel Captive.

I'm still not sure it is the best list, or how it would hold up against a typical Swarm. But it would be pretty fun to fly, or, at least really annoying to fly against. I think it's a more advanced list that requires proper asteroid and engagement planning. I would love to see what Dom could do with this list.