Hi all, Update #4 is now live

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4563

As a note, we're also looking at some revamping of Blood Loss and when psychic phenomena are triggered for the next update (along with everything noted in the news article). Thoughts here would be welcome as well as the other chapters we're focusing in for this week.

–Tim

Thankyou

Opposed Evading ! Great !

5 possible characteristic increases ! Great !

You even brought Choke Grenades back !

Delayed toxins to make detox a usefull thing ! Wow !

Even an AB Limit on armour !

Very elegant delay & Guarded action solution !

Tim, you are the man of the day ! Thats a great update !

Some notes:

1.) as in Beta1, I think it makes more sense to give an Agility limit instead of an agility bonus limit.

This would also give Parry a good position against dodge,m as it is not limited by armour.

Also, the limit should be a little more restricting. It is rather rare that someone has more than Agility bonus 5, and really really rare that someone has 7+. Usually, if someone does not start with 45, he cannot even reach Ag-Bonus 7 at all.

Therefore, the limits should be 1 Ag bonus stricter.

2.) The new fatigue is a good improvement. I think it might be a little hard to half a fatigued characteristic...maybe a -10 penalty would be sufficient.

After being unconscious it says it is reverted to Toughness Bonus - just after some minutes ? Wouldnt it make more sense to revert it to Toughness-Bonus+Willpower-Bonus (the threshold) ?

Should it be mentioned how long it needs to "heal" 1 fatigue (1h ?) ?

Maybe shocking should create fatigue now ?

And Blood Loss should also create fatigue like in beta 1 (maybe you also can make Bleeder rounds fit in this style).

Other than that - great great great !

Also, the limit should be a little more restricting. It is rather rare that someone has more than Agility bonus 5, and really really rare that someone has 7+. Usually, if someone does not start with 45, he cannot even reach Ag-Bonus 7 at all.

You can gain Unnatural Agility through a psychic power (Warp Speed IIRC).

And I agree that this is a very cool update. The return of the old fatigue system is especially welcomed.

Gotta admit! At first glance, this looks like the best one yet!

Also, the limit should be a little more restricting. It is rather rare that someone has more than Agility bonus 5, and really really rare that someone has 7+. Usually, if someone does not start with 45, he cannot even reach Ag-Bonus 7 at all.

You can gain Unnatural Agility through a psychic power (Warp Speed IIRC).

And I agree that this is a very cool update. The return of the old fatigue system is especially welcomed.

I wouldnt balance this instrument around 1 psychic skill or being an eldar though ;D

TRADE SKILL: FIX PLEASE. I have been saying this week for 3 weeks. Trade is used for crafting, not just my opinion, that is what it does IN ITS OWN RULES. The examples for trade skills ARE ALL CRAFTING BASED. Yet tech use which is already one of the most useful skills is given Crafting as its special use. How are Trade (Armourer) or Trade (Shipwright) not crafting skills???

TRADE

EXAMPLE MODIFIERS

+10 Forging

+0 Creating

-10 Constructing

-20 Constructing

-30 Constructing

That is CRAFTING.

It really makes me feel like they aren't reading the stuff being posted.

Personally I am not a fan of just straight up opposed evasion. I think its too weakening to those abilities and doesn't address the issue that low level characters will never pass a dodge or parry now.

" I think its too weakening..."

Would you rather your tricked-out attack with 8 DoS be completely nullified by an evasion with 1 DoS?.

That's why I preferred the talent based approach because it gave me the ability as a GM to scale combat encounters more to my liking. Now I feel that players are going to have to buy into defence in order to stand any hope of surviving combat encounters and it's going to make early game even more deadly.

It all looks very good at a brief glance. I wish I had more time to dedicate to really beta testing this thing and providing useful feedback. I've been very pleased to see FFG's responsiveness so far.

Now I feel that players are going to have to buy into defence in order to stand any hope of surviving combat encounters and it's going to make early game even more deadly.

Again, I say Dark Heresy is what the Players/GM make of it. Combat mechanics are an integral portion of the rules, but they are not the entirety of the rules. That combat will happen in a Dark Heresy game is an unfortunate certainty, but the Players can actually plan for less combat- by taking less combat-oriented Skills/Talents they indicate the type of game that interests them and the type of game they want to play. Sure, the GM can still include combat encounters, but saying the game will be too deadly is a broad assertion that readily dismisses the fact that the scholar might hide behind file cabinets instead of dashing in to combat cultists and narco-gangers. Saying that they players will have to buy in to the notion of a deadlier game by investing in defense before the game is even released is self-fulfilling. The "fix is in" on your game, and you've done it yourself by openly declaring that what makes the game "more deadly" is combat-incompetent PCs, like you don't have any control over how you run your own game.

Very happy that opposed evades are back.

Very happy that Ab limiters for armor are back.

Thank you, FFG.

That's why I preferred the talent based approach because it gave me the ability as a GM to scale combat encounters more to my liking. Now I feel that players are going to have to buy into defence in order to stand any hope of surviving combat encounters and it's going to make early game even more deadly.

If you're worried about it just make dodging mooks a binary pass/fail and save the DoS method for elites/bosses.

That's why I preferred the talent based approach because it gave me the ability as a GM to scale combat encounters more to my liking. Now I feel that players are going to have to buy into defence in order to stand any hope of surviving combat encounters and it's going to make early game even more deadly.

If you're worried about it just make dodging mooks a binary pass/fail and save the DoS method for elites/bosses.

Besides, With early level games, how many DoS are your average mook going to get anyway?

Very elegant delay & Guarded action solution !

Well, It's better, I grant you. But it still does not address whether you can take another Half Action before Delay. I am going to assume that you can, because the description does not explicitly say that you cannot.

While the description of Guarded Attack explicitly states that it must be the first Action you take, the Delay action contains no such wording.

Personally, I think this makes sense, but I note that this is the opposite of the decision made in Only Wars Beta, where Delay was changed into a Full Action.

" I think its too weakening..."

Would you rather your tricked-out attack with 8 DoS be completely nullified by an evasion with 1 DoS?.

Can't speak for Kaihlik, but I would definitely prefer it that way. Evasion is an extremely limited resource and a last ditch defensive effort, and should have the power to show for it. As an opposed test, evasion becomes less a matter of tactics and more a matter of build superiority, and it specifically cements the idea that psykers win with little effort (because good luck dodging that Molten Beam when the psyker generates two degrees of success on a roll of 99). Really a bad change, and I'm surprised so few people can see it.

That example is less a flaw of opposed evasions and more a flaw of the hilariously broken psychic power system.

Thanks, for this Christmas Present for us DH gamers!

" I think its too weakening..."

Would you rather your tricked-out attack with 8 DoS be completely nullified by an evasion with 1 DoS?.

Can't speak for Kaihlik, but I would definitely prefer it that way. Evasion is an extremely limited resource and a last ditch defensive effort, and should have the power to show for it. As an opposed test, evasion becomes less a matter of tactics and more a matter of build superiority, and it specifically cements the idea that psykers win with little effort (because good luck dodging that Molten Beam when the psyker generates two degrees of success on a roll of 99). Really a bad change, and I'm surprised so few people can see it.

Something rare to be saved ? Just if you fight against a high number of enemies.

In an 1:1 you can dodge every round against this one enemy, which makes evasive-heavy enemies/players un-hitable.

I really love opposed evasions as it now gives high-DoS standard attacks (and called shots) the quality they deserve.

Yeah anyone who's participated in fights against singular tough enemies knows how broken binary dodges are.

That example is less a flaw of opposed evasions and more a flaw of the hilariously broken psychic power system.

That's just the first example that springs to mind. The new version of the Inescapable Attack Talent makes everyone having it similarly impossible to evade.

This change kills evasion as a viable defensive option, and invalidates all tactical choices that it brought to the table in favor of stacking modifiers through the roof whenever possible. Notably, it makes sniper rifles and other single shot weapons with good damage output vastly superior to rapid fire weapons. Before, it was a gamble - you could fire one devastating shot and hope the enemy won't be able to avoid it or spray him with weaker bullets, having a good chance that he won't be able to avoid all of them. Right now, that +10 to hit from single shot is already better than scoring two hits on a full auto weapon.

I've never considered the possible one on one invincibility of evasion a bug, but rather a feature - if enemies are stupid enough to not pile up on a master dodger, they deserve to die. Same goes to the PC who somehow thinks it's a good idea to challenge an Incubus to a one on one duel rather than gang up on him with the rest of the team. If two master dodgers face off with no one present to tip the scales, it's down to a Feint roll-off, and everything works perfectly fine.

Psychic phenomena should create a considerable danger. Please dont nerf them.

That example is less a flaw of opposed evasions and more a flaw of the hilariously broken psychic power system.

That's just the first example that springs to mind. The new version of the Inescapable Attack Talent makes everyone having it similarly impossible to evade.

This change kills evasion as a viable defensive option, and invalidates all tactical choices that it brought to the table in favor of stacking modifiers through the roof whenever possible. Notably, it makes sniper rifles and other single shot weapons with good damage output vastly superior to rapid fire weapons. Before, it was a gamble - you could fire one devastating shot and hope the enemy won't be able to avoid it or spray him with weaker bullets, having a good chance that he won't be able to avoid all of them. Right now, that +10 to hit from single shot is already better than scoring two hits on a full auto weapon.

I've never considered the possible one on one invincibility of evasion a bug, but rather a feature - if enemies are stupid enough to not pile up on a master dodger, they deserve to die. Same goes to the PC who somehow thinks it's a good idea to challenge an Incubus to a one on one duel rather than gang up on him with the rest of the team. If two master dodgers face off with no one present to tip the scales, it's down to a Feint roll-off, and everything works perfectly fine.

Opposed evading is absolutely the right way to go.

It can be discussed if the additional "Inescapable attack" talent is needed in addition (especially as there is also Killing Strike). I think this talent could be exchanged against another, non-combat oriented talent (Nerves of steel please to have a better chance against pinning).

Automatic fire has ever since been far too strong - now standard attacks (and called shots) make more sense (although I still thing a half action would be better for a called shot). Now single shots have the same treat - nothing more nothing less.

The binary stuff for single-shot only was odd.

Psychic phenomena should create a considerable danger. Please dont nerf them.

I hope they will rework the Fettered power level. It should trigger Psychic Phenomena (on doubles as normal) while Unfettered/Push should trigger Perils of the Warp from the get-go.

Psychic phenomena should create a considerable danger. Please dont nerf them.

I hope they will rework the Fettered power level. It should trigger Psychic Phenomena (on doubles as normal) while Unfettered/Push should trigger Perils of the Warp from the get-go.

I second the wish for at least SOME risk at fettered level.

And: fettering should not be possible at PR1 !

And: fettering should not be possible at PR1 !

Well, PR1 is actually pretty darn rare for a PC. The only way to get it is to roll up an unsanctioned psyker or to stay close to an Untouchable.

Speaking of Unsanctioned psykers, a clarification on unsanctioned psykers would be nice: are they Bound or Unbound psykers?