You do realize there is room between suck and not as competent as the clone troopers right? It's not a dichotomy.

Well it's also easy to lump all stormtroopers together, when in reality, they have a lot of origin sources.

It's important to remember that at the end of the Clone Wars you had 2 separate sources of clones: Kamino-born (10-year training program including flash learning along with field training); Coruscant-born (secret Spaarti cylinders on a moon of Coruscant, clones grown to fruition within a couple months and all training was via memory flash). The latter being created so that Palpatine didn't have to completely depend on Kamino for new clones, and also explicitly to breed a huge army to be the backbone of the future Empire's military, as opposed to being bred to win the present war of secession.

The latter are far less competent than the former.

Following the Clone Wars and the Kaminoan rebellion, Palpatine decided to diversify the clone stock from just Jango Fett DNA. Multiple new clone templates were created from his favorite underlings, grown in Spaarti cylinders and given flash training. In addition, the Stormtrooper Corps took recruits and probably conscripts from many worlds, so that the original Kamino-born Fett clones who made up the core of the Corps at the end of the Clone Wars were a small minority in 0 BBY. In fact the only pure, original set of Fett clones was the 501st Legion, Darth Vader's personal command, and included clone troopers who didn't retire plus the original clone commandoes and Alpha-class ARC Troopers.

The "old guard" of Kamino-bred troops had extreme contempt for the stupider Fett-clones flash-bred in Spaarti cylinders, the additional gene-line clones, and especially volunteers/conscripts. I would expect facing a 501st detachment, as on Hoth, to be far more dangerous than a bunch of volunteers with basic training but not hardened by the Clone Wars.

Play them as Keystone cops or as elite troops, whatever works for your game. That's the nice thing about RPGs is that you can take your inspiration from anywhere.

Certainly. However, one of these approaches just got demoted to fanfic.

No it's not. You are cherry picking. In fact you are cherry picking from a CARTOON that hasn't even been released yet. Compare that to the, "Only Stormtroopers are so precise", version of a live action movie that is of the highest order of canon possible.

I would rather base my cherry on an original, real photograph then a cherry yet to be drawn with crayons by a 5 year old.

If you like the new goofy cartoon version, so be it. I'll stay with the original.

If you like the new goofy cartoon version, so be it. I'll stay with the original.

I think he basically likes to point towards things that proof his black and white worldview while ignoring anything that contradicts it.

You do realize there is room between suck and not as competent as the clone troopers right? It's not a dichotomy.

Well it's also easy to lump all stormtroopers together, when in reality, they have a lot of origin sources.

It's important to remember that at the end of the Clone Wars you had 2 separate sources of clones: Kamino-born (10-year training program including flash learning along with field training); Coruscant-born (secret Spaarti cylinders on a moon of Coruscant, clones grown to fruition within a couple months and all training was via memory flash). The latter being created so that Palpatine didn't have to completely depend on Kamino for new clones, and also explicitly to breed a huge army to be the backbone of the future Empire's military, as opposed to being bred to win the present war of secession.

The latter are far less competent than the former.

Following the Clone Wars and the Kaminoan rebellion, Palpatine decided to diversify the clone stock from just Jango Fett DNA. Multiple new clone templates were created from his favorite underlings, grown in Spaarti cylinders and given flash training. In addition, the Stormtrooper Corps took recruits and probably conscripts from many worlds, so that the original Kamino-born Fett clones who made up the core of the Corps at the end of the Clone Wars were a small minority in 0 BBY. In fact the only pure, original set of Fett clones was the 501st Legion, Darth Vader's personal command, and included clone troopers who didn't retire plus the original clone commandoes and Alpha-class ARC Troopers.

The "old guard" of Kamino-bred troops had extreme contempt for the stupider Fett-clones flash-bred in Spaarti cylinders, the additional gene-line clones, and especially volunteers/conscripts. I would expect facing a 501st detachment, as on Hoth, to be far more dangerous than a bunch of volunteers with basic training but not hardened by the Clone Wars.

I'm getting the impression that the new show is basically invalidating all of this. Stormtroopers appear to all be conscripts now.

Actually, stormtroopers are deadly when allowed to be and Dave Filoni is wrong. Lets look at the time we see Stromtroopers in action (originally from Reddit):

Boarding of the Tantive IV:

Are Stormtroopers trying to kill people: Yes.

Do Stormtroopers actually hit people: Yes. Despite the rebels defending a natural chokepoint, the Stormtroopers are able to brush them aside while suffering only light casualties. Stormtroopers demonstrate an ability to easily land kill shots while advancing forward.

Jawa Sandcrawler:

Are Stormtroopers trying to kill people: Yes.

Do Stormtroopers actually hit people: Yes. Obi-Wan Kenobi even remarks upon their accuracy and precision.

Death Star:

Are Stormtroopers trying to kill people: No.

During the initial confrontation in the security room the imperial forces were likely trying to kill the protagonists, but were unsuccessful due to the good guys having both the element of surprise and a wookiee. After this point, Imperial forces are well aware of what is going on and are under orders to allow the good guys to escape while putting up enough of a fight to look convincing because a tracking device has been placed on the Millennium Falcon. Han and Luke fall for this ploy, but Leia remarks on how they were allowed to escape.

Do Stormtroopers actually hit people: No.

Battle of Hoth:

Are Stormtroopers trying to kill people: Yes.

Do Stormtroopers actually hit people: Yes. They are able to enter Echo base and overrun the remaining base defenders so rapidly that they almost succeed in capturing Leia and Han.

Cloud City:

Are Stormtroopers trying to kill people: No. They are under orders to prevent Luke from linking up with Lando, Leia, and Chewbacca and to herd Luke into the carbon freezing chamber.

Do Stormtroopers actually hit people: No. By scoring many near misses, they are able to use disciplined and accurate blaster fire to prevent Luke from linking up with his friends and instead pushing him into the carbon freezing chamber.

Endor:

Are Stormtroopers trying to kill people: Yes.

Do Stormtroopers actually hit people: Yes. Of the four main characters present who are worth shooting at (Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and R2-D2) two of them are hit by Stormtroopers that are firing from the hip at relatively long range. This once again demonstrates excellent marksmanship and skill in modern day point-shooting techniques. Its also worth noting that despite being ambushed by a significantly numerically superior indigenous race that knows the terrain, the Stormtroopers are able to relatively easily fight their way out of the initial ambush and push the Ewoks back into the woods. It is only after the Stormtroopers split up into smaller groups in order to chase down fleeing Ewoks that the battle turns against them. Admittedly pursuing the fleeing Ewoks was a terrible tactical decision, but that suggests severe overconfidence on the Stormtroopers part rather than poor marksmanship.

Overall, Imperial Stormtroopers consistently demonstrate excellent marksmanship when they are actually trying to shoot people. In addition, they demonstrate a willingness to, without hesitation, follow orders that put them at an extreme risk (deliberately not trying to shoot people who are shooting at you). The actions of the Stormtroopers in the movies (most of which were later fluffed to be part of the elite 501st Imperial Legion), is consistent with their description of being an elite, fanatically loyal fighting force.

Also: read this article from Cracked: http://www.cracked.com/article_18858_the-biggest-star-wars-plot-hole-explained-by-science.html

Spot on Desslok.

Play them as Keystone cops or as elite troops, whatever works for your game. That's the nice thing about RPGs is that you can take your inspiration from anywhere.

This.

They're mass-produced, disposable minions in our games. (The 'theme' of the Empire for us is that it has vast, incalculable amounts of low-quality cannon-fodder...) Basically biological droids, shooting them is kind of considered to be a mercy-kill and ultimately doing them a favour. Those few among the rebels who are 'Inglorious Bastard' types don't even count stormtrooper kills as being legitimate.

I like nuance, but that's what human Imperials are for.

You do realize there is room between suck and not as competent as the clone troopers right? It's not a dichotomy.

Well it's also easy to lump all stormtroopers together, when in reality, they have a lot of origin sources.

It's important to remember that at the end of the Clone Wars you had 2 separate sources of clones: Kamino-born (10-year training program including flash learning along with field training); Coruscant-born (secret Spaarti cylinders on a moon of Coruscant, clones grown to fruition within a couple months and all training was via memory flash). The latter being created so that Palpatine didn't have to completely depend on Kamino for new clones, and also explicitly to breed a huge army to be the backbone of the future Empire's military, as opposed to being bred to win the present war of secession.

The latter are far less competent than the former.

Following the Clone Wars and the Kaminoan rebellion, Palpatine decided to diversify the clone stock from just Jango Fett DNA. Multiple new clone templates were created from his favorite underlings, grown in Spaarti cylinders and given flash training. In addition, the Stormtrooper Corps took recruits and probably conscripts from many worlds, so that the original Kamino-born Fett clones who made up the core of the Corps at the end of the Clone Wars were a small minority in 0 BBY. In fact the only pure, original set of Fett clones was the 501st Legion, Darth Vader's personal command, and included clone troopers who didn't retire plus the original clone commandoes and Alpha-class ARC Troopers.

The "old guard" of Kamino-bred troops had extreme contempt for the stupider Fett-clones flash-bred in Spaarti cylinders, the additional gene-line clones, and especially volunteers/conscripts. I would expect facing a 501st detachment, as on Hoth, to be far more dangerous than a bunch of volunteers with basic training but not hardened by the Clone Wars.

I'm getting the impression that the new show is basically invalidating all of this. Stormtroopers appear to all be conscripts now.

I'm worried they are going to be watering them down a lot and giving them a ton of screen time with them getting pounced on by the good guys.

Actually, stormtroopers are deadly when allowed to be and Dave Filoni is wrong. Lets look at the time we see Stromtroopers in action (originally from Reddit):

Boarding of the Tantive IV:

Are Stormtroopers trying to kill people: Yes.

Do Stormtroopers actually hit people: Yes. Despite the rebels defending a natural chokepoint, the Stormtroopers are able to brush them aside while suffering only light casualties. Stormtroopers demonstrate an ability to easily land kill shots while advancing forward.

Jawa Sandcrawler:

Are Stormtroopers trying to kill people: Yes.

Do Stormtroopers actually hit people: Yes. Obi-Wan Kenobi even remarks upon their accuracy and precision.

Death Star:

Are Stormtroopers trying to kill people: No.

During the initial confrontation in the security room the imperial forces were likely trying to kill the protagonists, but were unsuccessful due to the good guys having both the element of surprise and a wookiee. After this point, Imperial forces are well aware of what is going on and are under orders to allow the good guys to escape while putting up enough of a fight to look convincing because a tracking device has been placed on the Millennium Falcon. Han and Luke fall for this ploy, but Leia remarks on how they were allowed to escape.

Do Stormtroopers actually hit people: No.

Battle of Hoth:

Are Stormtroopers trying to kill people: Yes.

Do Stormtroopers actually hit people: Yes. They are able to enter Echo base and overrun the remaining base defenders so rapidly that they almost succeed in capturing Leia and Han.

Cloud City:

Are Stormtroopers trying to kill people: No. They are under orders to prevent Luke from linking up with Lando, Leia, and Chewbacca and to herd Luke into the carbon freezing chamber.

Do Stormtroopers actually hit people: No. By scoring many near misses, they are able to use disciplined and accurate blaster fire to prevent Luke from linking up with his friends and instead pushing him into the carbon freezing chamber.

Endor:

Are Stormtroopers trying to kill people: Yes.

Do Stormtroopers actually hit people: Yes. Of the four main characters present who are worth shooting at (Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and R2-D2) two of them are hit by Stormtroopers that are firing from the hip at relatively long range. This once again demonstrates excellent marksmanship and skill in modern day point-shooting techniques. Its also worth noting that despite being ambushed by a significantly numerically superior indigenous race that knows the terrain, the Stormtroopers are able to relatively easily fight their way out of the initial ambush and push the Ewoks back into the woods. It is only after the Stormtroopers split up into smaller groups in order to chase down fleeing Ewoks that the battle turns against them. Admittedly pursuing the fleeing Ewoks was a terrible tactical decision, but that suggests severe overconfidence on the Stormtroopers part rather than poor marksmanship.

Overall, Imperial Stormtroopers consistently demonstrate excellent marksmanship when they are actually trying to shoot people. In addition, they demonstrate a willingness to, without hesitation, follow orders that put them at an extreme risk (deliberately not trying to shoot people who are shooting at you). The actions of the Stormtroopers in the movies (most of which were later fluffed to be part of the elite 501st Imperial Legion), is consistent with their description of being an elite, fanatically loyal fighting force.

Also: read this article from Cracked: http://www.cracked.com/article_18858_the-biggest-star-wars-plot-hole-explained-by-science.html

"Yeah, but, you know, Dave Filoni says... And the Empire sucks becau... And... You know... Just shut up!"

Well, the Empire sucks because it is a thinly veiled expy for Nazi Germany (or Soviet Russia or a whole bunch of other loathsome assholes with very few redeeming features). Mr. Filoni is speaking for the people who are going to make several hundred hours of television featuring the Empire getting their ass kicked over and over again. On top of all the other Star Wars media where they get their ass kicked over and over.

I really think you may have backed the wrong horse if cheering for loathsome assholes who always lose is not your thing.

You want to give your Stormtroopers a leg up? Add a new category of NPC - "Elite Minions"

They have skill 1 alone - and upgrade from there for numbers, rather than from skill 0, and further, add "Linked" with a rank equal to the upgrades. And get +1 Wound Threshold over normal minions.

Boom - there's your 501st or Kaminoan Fett-Clones. And your Rebel Elites, like Echo Group.

Comparing groups of 4 stormtroopers...

Normal: Soak 4, WT 5 Skill 3y, maximum one hit based upon damage 9

Elite: Soak 4, WT 6, Skill 3y 1g, Linked 3 damage 9... a few advantage quickly makes short work of even hardcases.

Well, the Empire sucks because it is a thinly veiled expy for Nazi Germany (or Soviet Russia or a whole bunch of other loathsome assholes with very few redeeming features). Mr. Filoni is speaking for the people who are going to make several hundred hours of television featuring the Empire getting their ass kicked over and over again. On top of all the other Star Wars media where they get their ass kicked over and over.

I really think you may have backed the wrong horse if cheering for loathsome assholes who always lose is not your thing.

Wow... Just wow...

Again, ignoring the complete list from Desslock on why Filoni is not really using a canonical stormtrooper and taking it as an excuse to go flying into hyperbole straight away are we, Erik?

No one is backing any horse you dumbshit, people are playing a game based on a fantasy series they enjoy and your authistic repeating of the same bs over and over again is getting tiresome. Really tiresome...

You do understand that your behaviour of allowing no dissent to your opinion and the negligence to take into consideration the facts that contradict your point, is a lot more reminiscent of the Imperial way of dealing with such things than it is with the Rebellion viewpoint, do you?

Ignoring for a moment that what most of the world 'knows' about stormtroopers is that they can't hit anything and get beaten up by Ewoks and all he is saying is the Official In Universe Explanation ^tm for why this is, going forwards Mr. Filoni is on this Story Group thingy that as I understand it exists to decide what Star Wars is. He makes canon.

Now that doesn't mean you have to like what they say, but I don't think they have a lot of wiggle room on this so you can learn to love less efficient stormtroopers or spend the next ten years complaining that they are doing Star Wars wrong.

So, have you considered the Rebel Alliance! It offers many advantages to the gamer.

-Relaxed dress code

-Camouflage

-Individuality

-Guilt free torture of Imperials (they deserve it!)

-Righteous Indignation

-Badass Starfighters

-Wins in the end

Well, the Empire sucks because it is a thinly veiled expy for Nazi Germany (or Soviet Russia or a whole bunch of other loathsome assholes with very few redeeming features). Mr. Filoni is speaking for the people who are going to make several hundred hours of television featuring the Empire getting their ass kicked over and over again. On top of all the other Star Wars media where they get their ass kicked over and over.

I really think you may have backed the wrong horse if cheering for loathsome assholes who always lose is not your thing.

Wow... Just wow...

Again, ignoring the complete list from Desslock on why Filoni is not really using a canonical stormtrooper and taking it as an excuse to go flying into hyperbole straight away are we, Erik?

No one is backing any horse you dumbshit, people are playing a game based on a fantasy series they enjoy and your authistic repeating of the same bs over and over again is getting tiresome. Really tiresome...

You do understand that your behaviour of allowing no dissent to your opinion and the negligence to take into consideration the facts that contradict your point, is a lot more reminiscent of the Imperial way of dealing with such things than it is with the Rebellion viewpoint, do you?

I love how ErikB has pretty much become the poster boy for the Empire by this point. By constantly bashing them at every opportunity, he makes people want to cast them in a positive light, if for no other reason than because it's what he seems to loathe; and by trying to enforce his opinions on people, whilst simultaneously ignoring their objections or opinions, he's one goose-step and a small army away from being a tyrannical, country invading nutcase.

Palpatine would be proud of you Erik. I'm sure he's saluting you right now, from beyond the grave.

Ignoring for a moment that what most of the world 'knows' about stormtroopers is that they can't hit anything and get beaten up by Ewoks and all he is saying is the Official In Universe Explanation ^tm for why this is, going forwards Mr. Filoni is on this Story Group thingy that as I understand it exists to decide what Star Wars is. He makes canon.

That didn't make a whole of a lot of sense. At all...

Again, there was an entire list proving Filoni wrong in so far as Stormtroopers have been portrayed. If they will be prtrayed as such going forward, why not? It's his show.

Now that doesn't mean you have to like what they say, but I don't think they have a lot of wiggle room on this so you can learn to love less efficient stormtroopers or spend the next ten years complaining that they are doing Star Wars wrong.

I have no idea why I would do that. As far as I can see you opened this topic, not someone else.

So, have you considered the Rebel Alliance! It offers many advantages to the gamer.

Do you ever read the replies you get? I have no interest in playing as an imperial but if people want to do that then i see no harm in it whatsoever.

Bla

bla

bla

Guilt free torture of Imperials (they deserve it!)

bla

bla

Yeah, you're with the good guys...

You are the most demented individual I have ever come across on any message board and that includes IMDB's politics board!

Oh, and I hate to be the one to break it to you, but Star Wars? Not real.

Yeah, you're with the good guys...

You will note that that is the version of the pitch for someone who might be choosing between Empire! ^tm and Alliance! ^tm

I tend to think that someone willing to cheer for the Empire despite the whole jackboots, intolerance and mass murder thing needs a special approach.

You wanna play a hard ass space warrior? You don't want those stormtrooper losers, with their poor training and cheapo equipment. You want the new and improved Rebel Commando!

Comes with Dedication! Professionalism! Camouflage!

Note - also willing to put their life on the line in the hope of creating a universe where all beings can live in peace

And again a post that is beyond surreal... You speak about people needing a special approach but are you aware that it is you who constantely needs to be approached in a special way?

Are you aware that you are being ridiculous?

Are you aware of the mockery you are making of yourself?

Are you aware that there is no Empire you have to oppose on these boards?

Are you aware that there is no Rebel Alliance you need to have people join?

Wait, let's back it up a bit... The more fitting questions seems to be, are you aware at all?

And again a post that is beyond surreal... You speak about people needing a special approach but are you aware that it is you who constantely needs to be approached in a special way?

Are you aware that you are being ridiculous?

Are you aware of the mockery you are making of yourself?

Are you aware that there is no Empire you have to oppose on these boards?

Are you aware that there is no Rebel Alliance you need to have people join?

Wait, let's back it up a bit... The more fitting questions seems to be, are you aware at all?

"He trolls, therefore he is".

I hope he's trolling, but I'm afraid he isn't really...

I hope he's trolling, but I'm afraid he isn't really...

He isn't. He did this to the 40k RPG as AluminumWolf before being banned. I've tried to point out to FFG that this account, therefore, is used to avoid a ban, and should therefore be banned, but nothing has been done.

Well, the Empire sucks because it is a thinly veiled expy for Nazi Germany (or Soviet Russia or a whole bunch of other loathsome assholes with very few redeeming features). Mr. Filoni is speaking for the people who are going to make several hundred hours of television featuring the Empire getting their ass kicked over and over again. On top of all the other Star Wars media where they get their ass kicked over and over.

I really think you may have backed the wrong horse if cheering for loathsome assholes who always lose is not your thing.

Bust this: Those movies are about how the white man keeps the brother man down, even in a galaxy far, far away. Check this: You got cracker farm boy Luke Skywalker, Nazi poster boy, blond hair, blue eyes. And then you got Darth Vader, the blackest brother in the galaxy, Nubian god!

Now... Vader, he's a spiritual brother, y'know, down with the force and all that good stuff. Then this cracker, Skywalker, gets his hands on a light saber and the boy decides he's gonna run the universe; gets a whole clan of whites together. And they go and bust up Vader's hood, the Death Star. Now what do you call that?

Gentrification! They gon' drive out the black element to make the galaxy quote, unquote, safe for white folks. And Jedi's the most insulting installment! Because Vader's beautiful black visage is sullied when he pulls off his mask to reveal a feeble, crusty, old white man! They tryin' to tell us that deep inside we all wants to be white!

Chasing Amy?

Well, the Empire sucks because it is a thinly veiled expy for Nazi Germany (or Soviet Russia or a whole bunch of other loathsome assholes with very few redeeming features). Mr. Filoni is speaking for the people who are going to make several hundred hours of television featuring the Empire getting their ass kicked over and over again. On top of all the other Star Wars media where they get their ass kicked over and over.

I really think you may have backed the wrong horse if cheering for loathsome assholes who always lose is not your thing.

Bust this: Those movies are about how the white man keeps the brother man down, even in a galaxy far, far away. Check this: You got cracker farm boy Luke Skywalker, Nazi poster boy, blond hair, blue eyes. And then you got Darth Vader, the blackest brother in the galaxy, Nubian god!

Now... Vader, he's a spiritual brother, y'know, down with the force and all that good stuff. Then this cracker, Skywalker, gets his hands on a light saber and the boy decides he's gonna run the universe; gets a whole clan of whites together. And they go and bust up Vader's hood, the Death Star. Now what do you call that?

Gentrification! They gon' drive out the black element to make the galaxy quote, unquote, safe for white folks. And Jedi's the most insulting installment! Because Vader's beautiful black visage is sullied when he pulls off his mask to reveal a feeble, crusty, old white man! They tryin' to tell us that deep inside we all wants to be white!

Gentrification! They gon' drive out the black element to make the galaxy quote, unquote, safe for white folks. And Jedi's the most insulting installment! Because Vader's beautiful black visage is sullied when he pulls off his mask to reveal a feeble, crusty, old white man! They tryin' to tell us that deep inside we all wants to be white!

#fist bump#, brotha!

Yes, HooperX's monologue, slightly censored for the forum, from Chasing Amy

I love how ErikB has pretty much become the poster boy for the Empire by this point. By constantly bashing them at every opportunity, he makes people want to cast them in a positive light, if for no other reason than because it's what he seems to loathe; and by trying to enforce his opinions on people, whilst simultaneously ignoring their objections or opinions, he's one goose-step and a small army away from being a tyrannical, country invading nutcase.

I'm beginning to think this as I said in another thread. I think it's so over-the-top now, it's deliberate.

These days people use 'trolling' to mean 'anything I disagree with on the internet'. But back in the day it had a specific meaning; deliberately stirring things up by taking a (fake) controversial stance.