I strongly suspect a liberal Jew in Hollywood working for Disney (CEO Bob Iger, also Jewish and holder of the highest award of the USC Shoah Foundation Institute for Visual History and Education) isn't going to treat the Empire as anything other than the villains they were intended to be, so if you want something else I suspect you are not going to get it from the mainstream of Star Wars material.

Just something to keep in mind as Star Wars moves in to its new era.

So you are implying they'll make the Empire evil, etc, because they're all Jewish?

Reported for racism.

Reported for racism.

Probably fair (I mean, it is supposed to point out that while the Nazi overtones of the Empire and why that makes them bad people may be lost on wargamers, they almost certainly aren't lost on guys like JJ Abrams and Bob Iger, but yknow), but if people think they are getting the kind of hero worship Michael Wittmann gets in Flames of War for the Empire out of Disney, they are kidding themselves.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, the Y-Wings that we see in the Original Trilogy have had the bulk of their armor stripped off, leaving a lot of the more vulnerable parts exposed. I'd imagine with the armor put back on, the Y-Wing would have an Armor of at least 4. The A-10 Thunderbolt is noted as being a fairly rough and rugged plane, but how tough would it be if you stripped away most of the outer body and left all the innards exposed to enemy fire?

"Toughness" of a ship in EotE and AoR it seems is more a blend of Armor, Hull Threshold, and Strain Threshold. I honestly don't think the X-Wing's Armor is "way too high." As said before, I think a reduction to 4 is both sufficient and reasonable, making it a bit more able to shake off a hit, but a bit more vulnerable once a hit gets past that armor.

I was wondering this, is the EotE Y-wing stats with the armor gone? If it is then it should be simple to say you put the armor back on it goes up to what? 4, 5 maybe? And then you have to take it off to do repairs, adding to the time, or just up the diffculty of reapairs or something. Thoughts?

I would actually posit that the real reason the Empire fell was because there was no clear line of succession once the Emperor died. His arrogance caused his death, and then the Empire fractured into a bunch of Admirals/Warlords who all saw themselves as being the next Emperor. The fracturing of the Empire did more to stop it than anything else.

I support this, 100%. This is born out by the fact that the Empire began to do well once Grand Admiral Gilad Pellaeon took over, as he could keep the factionalisation of the Remnent to a minimum, and then Jaggard Fel became the new Emperor, and took over the galaxy once again, indicating that the Imperials were more than capable of fighting and winning.

well actually the Empire did have a clear line of succession (the Emperor, Darth Vader, Vader's Apprentice) what you forget is the whole point of the empire it to fulfill Darth Banes plan to destroy the Jedi and Take over the Republican (with the rule of 2). The problem is that Vader kills the Emperor but dies without a Sith Apprentice. So long story short the Empire was not prepared for Luke Skywalker.

I would prefer that the X-wing have Armor 3, but Armor 4 would be tolerable. Armor 5 is simply too high for any fighter that isn't specifically renowned for having such heavy plating.

Gonna agree with EldritchFire that I can buy into Armor 2, as well as the others who say Armor 3 appropriate or at most... even at Armor 4 it's then not vulnerable enough (in the sense of Hull Trauma Threshold of 10 not low enough ).

I was wondering this, is the EotE Y-wing stats with the armor gone? If it is then it should be simple to say you put the armor back on it goes up to what? 4, 5 maybe? And then you have to take it off to do repairs, adding to the time, or just up the diffculty of reapairs or something. Thoughts?

Given the RPG line has been sticking predominantly to the Original Trilogy versions of things, I'd say yes.

Compare these three versions:

Clone Wars: http://starwarsblog.starwars.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/y_art.jpg

With Plating: http://tacticalentertainment.tv/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/ywingschem.jpg

ANH version: http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110824161615/battlefront/images/b/bb/Y-Wing_Bomber.png

Those are some pretty big differences in terms of how much protection is provided. Since the EotE Y-Wing certainly looks to be based upon the ANH version (the iconic version of the craft), I'd say Armor 3 is with plating removed, and that Armor 4 is with the plating put back in place.

As for any mechanical perks for repairing the craft, that's more a case of story/gameplay segregation, with the EU coming up with an explanation to justify why the Y-Wings in the films had so little covering in contrast to the every other starship we saw in the films.

Gonna agree with EldritchFire that I can buy into Armor 2, as well as the others who say Armor 3 appropriate or at most... even at Armor 4 it's then not vulnerable enough (in the sense of Hull Trauma Threshold of 10 not low enough ).

The problem with Armor 2 is that's pretty flimsy for a starfighter, and flimsy is a word generally not applied to an X-Wing. It's been constantly noted in the EU as being able to take a hit. Maybe not as well as a fully-shielded B-Wing or Y-Wing, but it's far more durable than your typical TIE fighter. Armor 2 for the A-Wing is fine because that craft has been noted as not being that sturdy, using lighter armor to allow for much greater speeds than most other starfighters. It also works for TIEs because a TIE fighter is designed to be cheap to produce and easy to replace; they don't even have life-support in them.

Yeah, I think the X-Wing having Armor 2 would be too low.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone else feel that there might be a bit too much stacking of defensive shortcomings with some ships?

I mean, I don't know what the countermeasures thing does (I'm hoping it makes it harder to hit), but as it stands with the A-Wing right now, with significantly less hull, and less armor, and less shields, it looks like its going to get blown away pretty easily.

I mean, it can only toss 1 setback die for shields, and only subtracts 2 from damage. Right now a hit that would hole an A-wing wouldn't even take half of a Y-Wing's hull, and the A-Wing would be easier to hit. An X-Wing as written (5 armor) would be able to take FOUR of those hits before being destroyed. (Granted I think the 5 armor is bonkers)

And while an A-Wing would have an easier time with Gain the Advantage, but its not like Evasive Maneuvers makes them any more difficult to hit than it does any other ship. It would probably be best just to take the shot even with the evasive m upgrade.

The thing is, it just feels like stacking the downsides to survivability on all 3 things: shields, armor, and hull, it feels like you are becoming REALLY fragile.

Gonna agree with EldritchFire that I can buy into Armor 2, as well as the others who say Armor 3 appropriate or at most... even at Armor 4 it's then not vulnerable enough (in the sense of Hull Trauma Threshold of 10 not low enough ).

The problem with Armor 2 is that's pretty flimsy for a starfighter, and flimsy is a word generally not applied to an X-Wing. It's been constantly noted in the EU as being able to take a hit. Maybe not as well as a fully-shielded B-Wing or Y-Wing, but it's far more durable than your typical TIE fighter. Armor 2 for the A-Wing is fine because that craft has been noted as not being that sturdy, using lighter armor to allow for much greater speeds than most other starfighters. It also works for TIEs because a TIE fighter is designed to be cheap to produce and easy to replace; they don't even have life-support in them.

Keep in mind that there is more to toughness than armour. The X-wing has a HTT of 10, almost twice that of the TIE/LN. However, looking further at the other starfighters, I'd be content with armour of 3. That puts the X-wing and TIE Defender pretty even. The TIE/D is slower (speed 4 instead of 5), but is more maneuverable (handling of 2 as opposed to 1). They both have HTT and ST of 10.

Knocking the armour down to 3, or even 2 with a slightly higher HTT and I think it we can call it a day.

Yeah, I think the X-Wing having Armor 2 would be too low.Just out of curiosity, does anyone else feel that there might be a bit too much stacking of defensive shortcomings with some ships?I mean, I don't know what the countermeasures thing does (I'm hoping it makes it harder to hit), but as it stands with the A-Wing right now, with significantly less hull, and less armor, and less shields, it looks like its going to get blown away pretty easily.I mean, it can only toss 1 setback die for shields, and only subtracts 2 from damage. Right now a hit that would hole an A-wing wouldn't even take half of a Y-Wing's hull, and the A-Wing would be easier to hit. An X-Wing as written (5 armor) would be able to take FOUR of those hits before being destroyed. (Granted I think the 5 armor is bonkers)And while an A-Wing would have an easier time with Gain the Advantage, but its not like Evasive Maneuvers makes them any more difficult to hit than it does any other ship. It would probably be best just to take the shot even with the evasive m upgrade.The thing is, it just feels like stacking the downsides to survivability on all 3 things: shields, armor, and hull, it feels like you are becoming REALLY fragile.

The countermeasures thing for the A-wing makes it count as 1 silhouette smaller when being shot at, so it's considered a sil 2 ship when being fired on, but a sil 3 when doing the shooting. That's not going to make one bit of difference when being shot at by other starfighters, but when out-maneuvering shuttles, gunships, frigates, etc it means one more difficulty die.

Also, the A-wing isn't exactly built for extended combat. It's a scout/interceptor. It gets in, shoots its target, and gets out again. Heck, with a sensor range of MEDIUM (opposed to Close range of every other starfighter), it can easily track and surprise any lone starfighter, shuttle, or transport with the target none the wiser.

-EF

The thing is, even for a scout/interceptor, it feels pretty much like a deathtrap.

Also, wow on the less Strain threshold than a TIE Fighter. Hard to take advantage of that high speed when you have hardly any strain and can't get to speed.

I mean just trying to accelerate to full speed from a stop is going to be an exercise in futility. I'm really not sure they thought through some of the starship rules. I'm not liking the accelerate/decelerate being 1 per maneuver regardless of max speed. And punch it is going to be more expensive the higher your max speed is. And because of how they did strain threshold, the higher your max speed is, the lower your strain threshold is! (smaller ships have higher speeds, lower thresholds).

Keep in mind that there is more to toughness than armour. The X-wing has a HTT of 10, almost twice that of the TIE/LN. However, looking further at the other starfighters, I'd be content with armour of 3. That puts the X-wing and TIE Defender pretty even. The TIE/D is slower (speed 4 instead of 5 ), but is more maneuverable ( handling of 2 as opposed to 1). They both have HTT and ST of 10.

Knocking the armour down to 3, or even 2 with a slightly higher HTT and I think it we can call it a day.

This feels just as off as the X-wing's RAW Armor of 5, then again I had statted up the Defender as a straight upgrade over the X-wing and the A-wing/TIE Interceptor.

The bit about just how the A-wing's "countermeasures" were statted is interesting, considering that when I gave it a go I simply determined that the Electronic Countermeasures Suite "attachment" was part of the standard A-wing design.

The Y wings plating is described as'largely cosmetic' so I dont think this qualifies as armor, I think that this more refers to the physical shielding for the ships systems rather than hull plating, It definitely seems to go against canon in which the Y wings were considered tanks with B wings occupying a space between X wings and Y wings when it comes to endurance.

Honestly, this whole scenario needs way more information before we could come up with a proper response.

How many X-Wings? How many Z-95s? What is the strength and firepower of the freighter?

How many TIE Fighters are there? What backup do they have (they have no hyperdrives, they obviously were deployed from something, granted the answer could still be none if they were launched from a planetary or moon base)?

What are the objectives of the mission? What are the X-Wings breaking off from the main force for? Are they moving to intercept? Are they angling to exit the system in a separate direction and out of our way?

Okay my original query was to try and emphasize which ships would merit Imperial attention since the X-Wing is more or less only a Rebel used craft I figured the Rebel Alliance would only have a limited number of these forcing their reliance on the Y-Wing for example.

For an actual example lets say the freighter is a modified Lantillian Short Hauler designed to be able to attach 3 Z-95 Headhunter fighters to its exterior which can be launched once it returns to normal space.

The ship is bound for an remote world only known for being where some of the bloodiest battles near the end of the Clone Wars were waged however a Victory star destroyer jumps insystem and decides to investigate discovering the Short Hauler has launched its three Z-95 fighters as it heads to land on the world below as the Imperial ship's sensors pick up the presence of 3 X-Wings that seem to have been on a similar heading before they changed direction rapidly suggesting either the Short Hauler launched its fighters in reaction to the presence of the rebel fighters' or possibly in support.

The star destroyer launches a squadron of TIEs to investigate even as it sends a communication to both the Short Hauler and the Garrison on the planet below to confirm exactly what's going on.

The initial reply is that the Short Hauler is making an annual trip to a site on the desolate and largely uninhabited side of the world below to honour the memories of the founders of their unit something the Garrison Commander below confirms however it doesn't explain the presence of the X-Wings.

You are playing the Imperials what would you do ?

I think this is the wrong thread and section for my query, still the querying the exact capabilities of the X-Wing with other fighter craft still make interesting reading.

You are playing the Imperials what would you do ?

Capture all of the craft and crews if possible, destroy them if not. Commence an investigation afterwards with whatever is remaining.

The garrison must be Rebel sympathisers. Turbolaser the entire site from orbit - it's the only way to be sure.

Note I bolded, "Imperials", stressing it is what I think the Imperials would do, not necessarily the wisest route.

You are playing the Imperials what would you do ?

Capture all of the craft and crews if possible, destroy them if not. Commence an investigation afterwards with whatever is remaining.

The garrison must be Rebel sympathisers. Turbolaser the entire site from orbit - it's the only way to be sure.

Note I bolded, "Imperials", stressing it is what I think the Imperials would do, not necessarily the wisest route.

Well the adventure I thought up using that example was apparently better thought out than I realised!

...And Space Monkey raised the X-Wing up on high, saying, "O FFG, bless this Thy X-Wing that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy." And FFG did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals , and fruit bats and large chu... [ At this point, Space Monkey is urged by everyone to "skip a bit" ]... And FFG spake, saying, "First shalt thou take the current AoR X-Wing Armor rules, then shalt thou change it to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt use, and the number of the using shall be three. Four shalt thou not use, neither use thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be used, then fly thou thy X-Wing towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."

The Y wings plating is described as'largely cosmetic' so I dont think this qualifies as armor, I think that this more refers to the physical shielding for the ships systems rather than hull plating, It definitely seems to go against canon in which the Y wings were considered tanks with B wings occupying a space between X wings and Y wings when it comes to endurance.

Depends on the level of canon. As I've said in other threads, just because WEG initially said something was a certain way doesn't mean that FFG is automatically bound to adhere to that same statement, particularly if there's more recent information to suggest otherwise.

FFG's certainly gone against 'established canon' before (size of the HWK-290 being closer to that of a starfighter, stock YT-1300 having an extra laser cannon, and YT-2400 having much less cargo capacity than the YT-1300, "Star Destroyer" being a class of starships rather than a specific model for starters), plus that as a 20+ year old design, the Y-Wing's no longer as "tough" as it used to be against fighters of that time. Technically, they're already "tougher" than the X-Wing by virtue of having a higher Hull Trauma Threshold. An X-Wing is a more modern fighter craft, making use of technological improvements in the intervening 20+ years. Removal of the "superficial" hull plating might not have an impact on the super-structure of the craft (Hull Trauma), but I highly doubt that plating was purely decorative, and likely plays into why the Y-Wing's Armor rating isn't as good as the fully-covered X-Wing.

Removal of the "superficial" hull plating might not have an impact on the super-structure of the craft (Hull Trauma), but I highly doubt that plating was purely decorative, and likely plays into why the Y-Wing's Armor rating isn't as good as the fully-covered X-Wing.

Actually im quoting FFG here on this point page 257 of the EOTE corebook under the Btl-A4 and BTL-S3 Y-Wing attack starfighter entry.

​Despite their reputation for reliability, Y-wings possess some quirks that made them relatively high maintenance. This led to frustrated crews and technicians permanantly removing the largely cosmetic hull plating for ease of constant access to the fighters internal system; it's a rare Y-wing that flies with its hull plates intact.

If the plating provided that level of increased armor , if I were flying it I would insist that they put it back on.

With regards to the other Ffg source of stats for an x wing and a y wing they have the following stats in miniatures

Xwing shields 2/hull 3. Ywing shields 3 hull 5. The Y wing requires 8 dmg to kill compared with the xwings 5. This does not compare at all with the stats in AoR. I think that the AoR xwing stats are definitely out of skew. To consider the armor level to be on par with capital ships is IMO wrong.

In fact in the same section on Ywings in the core book it even states 'Ywings have thick armor and heavy shields to protect them while they close with targets. I personally think that removing something as essential as armor from a 'ship killer' would be stupid and suicidal.

Just ask yourself this , you and your 11 other ywing buddies are tasked to destroy a corvette/star destroyer , would you leave anything behind that could provide you any form of additional protection when you are going to have more maneuverable and numerous TIE fighters and a heavily armored, heavily shielded capital ship that outguns you. I know id refuse to move until the plating was put back on, or put it on myself.

For info, I have not read the WEG material, just EOTE and X Wing Miniatures.

EDIT I would also like to point out that the majority of material refer to the Y wing as a bomber , which is another major distinction, whereas the xwing was a fighter or fighter/bomber by comparison

Another problem is that of ship speed x wings should also be faster to fit with the role they play in comparison with y wings. I think that the speed ratings should be graduated more to account for the differences.

I don't have the book, but does it reference the Y-Wing from the EotE book or give the same stat block?

I can see the EotE book having the standard Y-wing you can purchase throughout the galaxy,

Perhaps the final version of AoR will have a Rebel version of the Y-wing? Bump the Armor to a 4 to be more inline with the other fighters in the book. Give it an extra hard point so it can absorb a nice upgrade.

Perhaps the the AoR book does have an error on the armor. They could be dropping all the ships armor by one in the final product.

I'll be interested to see the first beta updates for AoR in the support section.

Honestly, this whole scenario needs way more information before we could come up with a proper response.

How many X-Wings? How many Z-95s? What is the strength and firepower of the freighter?

How many TIE Fighters are there? What backup do they have (they have no hyperdrives, they obviously were deployed from something, granted the answer could still be none if they were launched from a planetary or moon base)?

What are the objectives of the mission? What are the X-Wings breaking off from the main force for? Are they moving to intercept? Are they angling to exit the system in a separate direction and out of our way?

Okay my original query was to try and emphasize which ships would merit Imperial attention since the X-Wing is more or less only a Rebel used craft I figured the Rebel Alliance would only have a limited number of these forcing their reliance on the Y-Wing for example.

For an actual example lets say the freighter is a modified Lantillian Short Hauler designed to be able to attach 3 Z-95 Headhunter fighters to its exterior which can be launched once it returns to normal space.

The ship is bound for an remote world only known for being where some of the bloodiest battles near the end of the Clone Wars were waged however a Victory star destroyer jumps in system and decides to investigate discovering the Short Hauler has launched its three Z-95 fighters as it heads to land on the world below as the Imperial ship's sensors pick up the presence of 3 X-Wings that seem to have been on a similar heading before they changed direction rapidly suggesting either the Short Hauler launched its fighters in reaction to the presence of the rebel fighters' or possibly in support.

The star destroyer launches a squadron of TIEs to investigate even as it sends a communication to both the Short Hauler and the Garrison on the planet below to confirm exactly what's going on.

The initial reply is that the Short Hauler is making an annual trip to a site on the desolate and largely uninhabited side of the world below to honour the memories of the founders of their unit something the Garrison Commander below confirms however it doesn't explain the presence of the X-Wings.

You are playing the Imperials what would you do ?

I think this is the wrong thread and section for my query, still the querying the exact capabilities of the X-Wing with other fighter craft still make interesting reading.

Victory star destroyer, that should mean, if I'm remembering right, that I have 9 TIE/fighters and am able to call in 6 bombers as well. I’d split my force, I’d lead a squad of 6 fighters and 3 bombers against the X-wings (if they didn’t surrender and prepare to be tractor-beamed into our Star Destroyer for inspection; they might not be rebels after all… unless they have rebel marking which I always thought was dumb, but then no warning from my squadron if we are sure they are rebels) and then I would send the rest of my fighters and bombers to order the Z-95’s and their hauler to hold position and prepare for inspection, which the Victory (being slower than our fighters) will conduct when they reach them. The X-wings ought to run, because having them outnumbered 3-1 should cause them to think better than to attack. Once they run or are destroyed, we’d either let the Hauler go (if everything checked out) or impound it and the other ships and put the pilots and crew of the hauler and Z-95s under arrest. After that we do a planet wide search for any hidden rebel base, with our standard issue probe-droids, then request the garrison be reinforced in case the X-wings were just a scouting force.

Many people think the Empire is stupid. It was neither stupid nor cowardly. This would be the most likely operating procedure when encountering this kind of scenario. If the Z-95’s are there with the X-wings then sending the smaller squad (3 TIEs and 3 bombers) should be able to intercept them and keep them from joining the fight against the much more dangerous X-wings. While out numbering the X-wings still with my main squad should cause the Rebels to run (as the rebels rarely fought suicide missions and always lived by the, “live to fight another day,” motto whenever able; which was a sound strategy for them to have) or if they did stand and fight we ought to win (I’ve won in the X-wing game with 6 TIEs against 3 X-wings on many occasions; let alone that in this hypothetical I have 3 bombers to boot). I’m no longer worried about the Hauler as it is slow and ungainly and I have a Star Destroy tugging along at my back that should be around the same speed if not faster than the transport and it has enough firepower to destroy the hauler in short order if it takes part in the fight. Even if the bombers for some reason don’t, which they should because bombers are built to fight larger ships than fighters even though they are able to engage in fighter battles.

"Star Destroyer" being a class of starships rather than a specific model for starters

Well... unfortunately that has been official canon for a couple of years now. The current stuff is that a "star destroyer" is actually a "star" destroyer, an actually quite small ship in the Imperial navy, alongside the "star" cruisers", "star" battleships and "star" dreadnoughts (the Executor class Super Star Destroyer being the best known of them). They are very common, and in Imperial terms quite weak vessels.

To explain the fact that a "destroyer" is so much bigger than a frigate (rather than just a little bit bigger), and bigger than heavy cruisers (the old Dreadnought class), this is because they are on a separate "star" scale which outscales almost all ships on the older scale. Certainly George Lucas seems to have come to use the term to refer to almost any ship roughly of that size, based on the Revenge of the Sith commentary.

Frankly, I personally think this is all crock, somehow pushed into the background by the stardestroyer.net crowd etc, and to me the Star Destroyer is the "Star Destroyer" a ship capable of cowing entire star systems into line if they are not sufficiently well defended to fight it off. A ship that even the presence of one of makes the Rebellion nervous, and likely to leave as soon as possible. The true "dreadnought" of its day.

Of course other EU stuff then has "Imperial Battlecruisers" which are smaller

Many people think the Empire is stupid. It was neither stupid nor cowardly.

Then how do you set it up so a typical bunch of PCs can beat them every week?

You have to give the players something to work with. So what advantages do the PCs have over their enemies that they can exploit?

"Star Destroyer" being a class of starships rather than a specific model for starters

Well... unfortunately that has been official canon for a couple of years now. The current stuff is that a "star destroyer" is actually a "star" destroyer, an actually quite small ship in the Imperial navy, alongside the "star" cruisers", "star" battleships and "star" dreadnoughts (the Executor class Super Star Destroyer being the best known of them). They are very common, and in Imperial terms quite weak vessels.

My point being that holding to older bits of EU (particularly the stuff from the WEG days) isn't a good idea, as the EU changes, as noted with the bit about Star Destroyers. Back in WEG days, a Star Destroyer was a pretty specific class of vessel, but that's almost two decades ago, where as you noted the recent EU has used the term "Star Destroyer" now applies to a whole range of vessels instead of one or two models.

A lot of the stuff on Y-Wings being all-around tougher than an X-Wing was an EU bit from long ago, likely an attempt to explain why the Alliance even used anything other than X-Wings during the Death Star run as well as an assumption based on real-world designs that most dedicated bombers are designed to be able to withstand more punishment than a dedicated attack fighter.

As for that one poster's remark of "well I'd demand they put that hull plating back on!" it could very well be that hull plating that got removed has long since been recycled for the Alliance war effort. Hard to put something back on that doesn't exist anymore, or may not even be in the same system. But hey, if your pilot wants to go sulk in their bunk while pilots who are willing to take risks for a cause they believe in fly the mission instead, go right ahead.