The fact that survivability of TIE pilots was really low, and low survivability = lack of experienced pilots.

Well yeah, so given that you have a flight element full of replacements with less than 10 hours on ties, low chances of surviving an encounter at the best of times and even if you get back if you engaged and took heavy losses and the convoy escaped Vader will probably choke you to death.

Hence, your best option is to defect to the Rebels or at least try to avoid combat, shift the blame on to someone else and try to get yourself posted to a quiet sector.

Except that isn't something that is shown in the source material ever. In general, Imperial forces seem pretty well indoctrinated and ready to lay down their lives. For every "Rebel who used to be an Imperial" you see in the story, there are thousands of troops that seem perfectly willing to lay their life down for the Empire. And usually when an Imperial defects, its over MORAL grounds, not fear.

Find one point in the movies where any of the troops act in any way cowardly. Hell, find something in the EU that supports it. I'll wait.

Keep in mind that you make it sound like Darth Vader is out choking everybody. Empire's a big organization. You have to have already made a name for yourself to even be on Vader's radar.

It's like watching Karen Traviss talk about her faux-Gurkhas versus Jedi "slavers" in WWII propaganda form... and I'm more sympathetic to "cowards" because they come off more like actual people!

The "interesting" thing to me about the Armor 5 is that it's closer to capital ships inordinate and out of proportion to having 2 less Hull Threshold.

I'll take "Things that have no basis in the source fiction" for 500, Alex.

So what do you feel accounts for the Imperial starfighter corps notoriously poor combat record against their Rebel opponents?

You mean "notoriously poor combat record against their named-character Rebel opponents"? Because there are just as many Imperial star fighter aces as Rebel ones, and some are even named.

You mean "notoriously poor combat record against their named-character Rebel opponents"? Because there are just as many Imperial star fighter aces as Rebel ones, and some are even named.

Not to mention the fact that when faced with an Elite squadron (Black Squadron), even with the TIEs outnumbered (granted they had an advantage with the Death Star being right there, but honestly the gun emplacements seemed remarkably ineffective), the Alliance did not fair very well.

I suspect you will find it is closer to the intention of the source material to present the forces of the Empire as bullies who will enthusiastically massacre unarmed civilians but break and run at the first sign of real resistance than as misunderstood heroes.

There was pretty overtly a mix of Tarkin's unwillingness to lose face by acknowledging a threat and how the Navy had a capital ship-centric mindset, with the Lancer-class being a sort-of about-face... support of . I also only recall two pilots being solicited by Vader, which made for the TIEs being the outnumbered.

Then again, the more they're being slagged on, the more likely they are to be "misunderstood"...

I suspect you will find it is closer to the intention of the source material to present the forces of the Empire as bullies who will enthusiastically massacre unarmed civilians but break and run at the first sign of real resistance than as misunderstood heroes.

Not if you read the source material. Not that they are misunderstood heroes, just most imperials aren't cowards. There is no comic, book, or part of the film where the Imperials break and run at the first sign of real resistance. Look at the real events.

Hoth? Imperials attack a rebel fortress, and lose not one but 4 AT-AT's, each with dozens of troopers in it, and who knows how many men assulting the place along side the big guns and they didn't run. The Rebles ran. The battle of Yavin, after the Death Star? The Imperials meet heavy resistance and didn't flintch.

I'm not trying to glorfy the Empire, they're bad guys, but they were not cowards. They dig in their heel and fight. It's one of the reason they couldn't beat the Rebels, cause the Rebs ran and the Imps stayed when they took a world, they didn't just pull all their forces from a dozen other worlds (like Dressillia or Kasshik [the Wookiee world, however it's spelled]) and try and gut the rebels, they stayed and fought.

I suspect you will find it is closer to the intention of the source material to present the forces of the Empire as bullies who will enthusiastically massacre unarmed civilians but break and run at the first sign of real resistance than as misunderstood heroes.

Uh, that is not what I said. I said they were heavily indoctrinated. They show no real cowardly actions in the source material. I'm not sure what universe you live in in which discipline alone qualifies you to be a hero.

That was pretty overtly a mix of Tarkin's unwillingness to lose face by acknowledging a threat and how the Navy had a capital ship-centric mindset, with the Lancer-class being a sort-of about-face... support of .

I also only recall two pilots being solicited by Vader...

Tarkin's hubris lost them that battle. There was no way that the Rebel Alliance fighters could have repelled the full compliment of TIE Fighters the Death Star carried.

Also, Vader addresses Black 2 and 3 of his personal squadron. The other fighters that launch are all Black squadron TIEs, the ones that were directly under Vader's command. More than likely they were all standing by and as soon as Vader arrived in the hanger they all launched, it wasn't shown but those were all his men.

The funny thing about Hoth is that it's overtly a fighting withdrawal in the face of what the Rebels realized would be a dragnet, one botched by the infamous early exit from hyperspace, and the ion cannon was to punch a hole to secure VIP escape... but before long it's clearly the Rebels on the run after having done as much damage and stalled for as much time as they could manage.

So people would feel it was more in character for Imperial pilots to ignore the convoy and go for the glory of engaging the X-Wing squadron in fighter to fighter combat, and then die under the guns of our heroes, squandering their lives and their fighters and allowing the crucial supplies to escape?

So people would feel it was more in character for Imperial pilots to ignore the convoy and go for the glory of engaging the X-Wing squadron in fighter to fighter combat, and then die under the guns of our heroes, squandering their lives and their fighters and allowing the crucial supplies to escape?

In general, they would do what they were ordered to do, and if they were lacking someone around to give those orders, they would attempt to accomplish the existing mission objectives. If those objectives are "take that freighter" they would do their best to take that freighter.

The Empire is a disciplined military. They look at the objectives, they try to meet those objectives.

It's "die under the guns of our heroes" or be cowards... it's a no-win scenario by what passes for his "logic".

Honestly, this whole scenario needs way more information before we could come up with a proper response.

How many X-Wings? How many Z-95s? What is the strength and firepower of the freighter?

How many TIE Fighters are there? What backup do they have (they have no hyperdrives, they obviously were deployed from something, granted the answer could still be none if they were launched from a planetary or moon base)?

What are the objectives of the mission? What are the X-Wings breaking off from the main force for? Are they moving to intercept? Are they angling to exit the system in a separate direction and out of our way?

The Empire is a disciplined military. They look at the objectives, they try to meet those objectives.

Then how come they always lose?

Then how come they always lose?

They don't.

They don't.

So what factors do you feel contributed to the victory of the Rebel Alliance over the Empire in the Galactic Civil War?

They don't.

So what factors do you feel contributed to the victory of the Rebel Alliance over the Empire in the Galactic Civil War?

Vader's turn got the Emperor killed, while the shield generator did go down, then the sheer dumb luck of that A-wing crash into the Executor 's bridge, plunging it into the second Death Star, thanks to the Rebel fleet focus-firing on it first.

Besides straight old Designated Heroes (emphasis on Designated), Plot Armor and good old what-you-call-heroics-I-call- propagandized -luck?

Do you really find that more satisfying than the idea that the Rebels might in some way be good at what they do, while the Empire are in some way bad at what they do?

So what factors do you feel contributed to the victory of the Rebel Alliance over the Empire in the Galactic Civil War?

In the long run? The Empire was its own worst enemy. Between Human High Culture and the Tarkin Doctrine they created their opposition and strengthened them.

On top of that, the Rebellion had the advantage of mobility. That Rebel fleet in Return of the Jedi? That was most of the ships the Rebellion had access to. The Imperial fleet? Nowhere near. They couldn't pull their fleets away from the defense of the enumerable member worlds and leave them open to Rebel attack.

I would also say that its likely that the Rebellion had some very skilled tacticians in charge. Dodonna and Ackbar are both depicted as skilled military leaders.

The Empire also suffered from quite a bit of arrogance. Tarkin's arrogance screwed them in A New Hope and Palpatine's arrogance screwed them in Return of the Jedi.

I'm not sure why you think the Empire being cowards supports the Rebellion being good at anything. The Empire being COMPETENT makes the Rebellion have to have been even more obviously skilled.

The Empire was doomed to fail due to the groundwork they layed out as a government.

Conscripted soldiers vs passionate rebels. The stormtroopers were better equipped and even possibly better trained, but they had no desire for combat. They weren't defending their ideals. They were fighting because they were forced to. They weren't cared much for either. Tie fighters are a great example of this. Cheap, replaceable, effective en masse. No real concern for the safety of the pilots.

Punishing failure instead of rewarding experience. Any mistake, no matter how honest or minor it may have been, usually resulted in the death or demotion of a Imperial leader. It didn't even matter if the failure was a direct result of their actions or completely out of their control, the end result was the same. While the Rebels saw any failure or success as potential experience that would help and individual grow into a more competant soldier, or even a potential leader. The Empire lost many capable people through this system. Many skilled leaders were killed for minor setbacks, and many other simply left the Empire to join the Rebellion.

Xenophobia vs tolerance. The Empire began a culture of human superiority that ostrichized all other races. This meant fewer races to call on as soldier, as technicians, as researchers, etc. The Rebels accepted all species that were willing to join in their fight against the Empire. This gave them a wide array of support. It meant new weapons, new soldiers, new strategies, etc, etc. The Empire created it's own enemy and then continued to reinforce it....where a slightly more open and tolerant Empire would have been able to cut all suppor to the Rebels much easier.

Not only that, but the Empire was amazingly sexist also. Women had less power than men in the Empire, and few were allowed to serve in the Imperial military.

On top of all that, you have the deep culture of corruption in the Empire. Planetary govenors, and Imperial leaders would outright steal from the Empire itself to increase their own power and wealth.

Basically, those in control of the Empire seemingly did everything in their power to make sure the Empire would fail.

I'd blame the loss of the Empire to the Rebels on the overall incompetance of the Empire.

The killing of military leaders for failures was pretty much just a Vader thing. That isn't something anyone could get away with, Vader did it because Vader didn't answer to anyone but the Emperor, and we never see anyone else do it. During the height of the Empire it was 69 million inhabited systems strong. Vader wasn't everywhere.

And while conscription certainly existed, there was a lot of volunteers as well. Imperial troops were indoctrinated. We see no evidence in the source material that they were anything but loyal and willing to fight for the Empire.

Corruption surely existed, but not on the wide scale you are insisting on. When you have 10s of millions of systems, corruption is inevitable in parts, but I saw no real evidence that they were any more corrupt than any other large government body.

The speciesist and sexist stuff IS actually supported by the source material, and I already pointed out was a problem.

I'm really not sure what source material people are pulling from to support the idea that the Empire was incompetent.

I would actually posit that the real reason the Empire fell was because there was no clear line of succession once the Emperor died. His arrogance caused his death, and then the Empire fractured into a bunch of Admirals/Warlords who all saw themselves as being the next Emperor. The fracturing of the Empire did more to stop it than anything else.

The Empire was doomed to fail due to the groundwork they layed out as a government.

Conscripted soldiers vs passionate rebels. The stormtroopers were better equipped and even possibly better trained, but they had no desire for combat. They weren't defending their ideals. They were fighting because they were forced to. They weren't cared much for either. Tie fighters are a great example of this. Cheap, replaceable, effective en masse. No real concern for the safety of the pilots.

Incorrect. Not all stormtroopers were conscripted, there isn't any obvious lack of "desire for combat", and some were fighting for their ideals, they did believe in the Empire. Yes, some, perhaps many, we conscripted, but there were those who believed in what the Empire stood for, and were willing to fight for it.

Punishing failure instead of rewarding experience. Any mistake, no matter how honest or minor it may have been, usually resulted in the death or demotion of a Imperial leader. It didn't even matter if the failure was a direct result of their actions or completely out of their control, the end result was the same. While the Rebels saw any failure or success as potential experience that would help and individual grow into a more competant soldier, or even a potential leader. The Empire lost many capable people through this system. Many skilled leaders were killed for minor setbacks, and many other simply left the Empire to join the Rebellion.

Only if you ignore the setting other than the movies. In the novels, success is heavily rewarded, see Thrawn, the Fel Dynasty, etc.

Xenophobia vs tolerance. The Empire began a culture of human superiority that ostrichized all other races. This meant fewer races to call on as soldier, as technicians, as researchers, etc. The Rebels accepted all species that were willing to join in their fight against the Empire. This gave them a wide array of support. It meant new weapons, new soldiers, new strategies, etc, etc. The Empire created it's own enemy and then continued to reinforce it....where a slightly more open and tolerant Empire would have been able to cut all suppor to the Rebels much easier.

Not only that, but the Empire was amazingly sexist also. Women had less power than men in the Empire, and few were allowed to serve in the Imperial military.

This bit, at least, is accurate, and the main reason why the Empire lost. When the other races of the galaxy outnumber you, and many are fairly militarised, then yes, it was stupid to alienate them (pun not intended). From the prequels, though, it's not immediately obvious why there was xenophobia, since Palpatine had several close alien supporters. I think that's more of a thing from the original trilogy that perhaps might not be kept if they were made nowadays.

Yes, there is corruption, but that's not because of it being the Empire, but because that is the way of things. The same corruption ends up taking place in the New Republic, Galactic Alliance, etc.

Basically, those in control of the Empire seemingly did everything in their power to make sure the Empire would fail.

I'd blame the loss of the Empire to the Rebels on the overall incompetance of the Empire.

I'd say the only one of those things that we can conclusively say the Empire did to weaken itself is the xenophobia. Otherwise, it's just people being corrupt regardless of the regime, and a lot of luck on the part of the Rebels.

I would actually posit that the real reason the Empire fell was because there was no clear line of succession once the Emperor died. His arrogance caused his death, and then the Empire fractured into a bunch of Admirals/Warlords who all saw themselves as being the next Emperor. The fracturing of the Empire did more to stop it than anything else.

I support this, 100%. This is born out by the fact that the Empire began to do well once Grand Admiral Gilad Pellaeon took over, as he could keep the factionalisation of the Remnent to a minimum, and then Jaggard Fel became the new Emperor, and took over the galaxy once again, indicating that the Imperials were more than capable of fighting and winning.

You guys just let ErikB take a good thread about the X-Wing in AoR and turn it into his usual You-Must-Believe-My-Viewpoint-of-the-Empire thread.

I'm sure we'll get spammed by what he thinks are relevant realworld pics and video clips soon.