For us poor students on the other side of the Atlantic it would be really, really sad if someone broke copyright laws and posted the beta on the internet. That would be so sad.

I'd rather you didn't barefacedly ask for pirated copies on the forum. It's disrespectful to the people who worked on it.

Agreed but it does shown insight into how the modern consumer works. With the book being in the wild for any extended time without people being able to make legit pre-orders it pushes people towards these bad options.

Nah, it doesn't "push" anyone. People just have to get over their "I want it now!" freeloader mentality. If you can't wait for the actual book and *pay for it*, you don't deserve a copy of anything.

For us poor students on the other side of the Atlantic it would be really, really sad if someone broke copyright laws and posted the beta on the internet. That would be so sad.

I'd rather you didn't barefacedly ask for pirated copies on the forum. It's disrespectful to the people who worked on it.

Agreed but it does shown insight into how the modern consumer works. With the book being in the wild for any extended time without people being able to make legit pre-orders it pushes people towards these bad options.

Nah, it doesn't "push" anyone. People just have to get over their "I want it now!" freeloader mentality. If you can't wait for the actual book and *pay for it*, you don't deserve a copy of anything.

Morally you're totally correct, but its a reality of doing business nowadays. I like FFG's products and I want them to succeed. It's frustrating when you see them shoot themselves in the foot over these things.

I would like to start my reply saying that I dislike piracy and find it fair to the people who work so hard on these games to pay the correct amount for them.

But, why a limited Beta that only a few people can participate? Anyone could test Green Ronin's Dragon Age or Wotc's D&D Next and they did not even have to pay for it. So, although it is immoral, I do not see any other way out for people who miss the Beta to at least be able to "check" on the rules than if there is a scan.

My point is that there would be almost no one hoping for a scan to surface if anybody who wished to pay for it, could obtain those rules. like it is so with Dark Heresy, for instance.

I know the costs for printing are high, but some people, like myself, have paid several hundreds of dollars for the Eote Beta on Ebay and I doubt it they would not sell these copies. Point being that, from what I read, some people could favor the more cohese version of these rules.

I do not think piracy is justifiable, but, in this case, I would not be so quick to condemn this guy, because, with feedback extended to November, who knows when we will get the Core Book, next year?

For us poor students on the other side of the Atlantic it would be really, really sad if someone broke copyright laws and posted the beta on the internet. That would be so sad.

four nights of drinking money and the book is yours! all students have drinking money. ;D

Shipment to Sweden and with Swedish taxation on alcohol those 30 bucks is maybe 1 night out, and forget about going out to dance or someplace else to drink.

And btw no not all students have drinking money, last time I spent money on alcohol was midsummer eve. Without income and rent and other bills to pay, that is money you don't have as a student.

"Always with you what can't be done...you must unleeeeeearn what you have leeeeearned." -- Yoda

I would like to start my reply saying that I dislike piracy and find it fair to the people who work so hard on these games to pay the correct amount for them.

But, why a limited Beta that only a few people can participate? Anyone could test Green Ronin's Dragon Age or Wotc's D&D Next and they did not even have to pay for it. So, although it is immoral, I do not see any other way out for people who miss the Beta to at least be able to "check" on the rules than if there is a scan.

My point is that there would be almost no one hoping for a scan to surface if anybody who wished to pay for it, could obtain those rules. like it is so with Dark Heresy, for instance.

I know the costs for printing are high, but some people, like myself, have paid several hundreds of dollars for the Eote Beta on Ebay and I doubt it they would not sell these copies. Point being that, from what I read, some people could favor the more cohese version of these rules.

I do not think piracy is justifiable, but, in this case, I would not be so quick to condemn this guy, because, with feedback extended to November, who knows when we will get the Core Book, next year?

I'm also heavily on the side of anti-piracy, but I also can't count on the community to vote with their wallet, not purchase the Beta, and send a message to LFL that digital products would alleviate a lot of the tension in this area. And that's coming from someone who prefers and collects dead tree editions.

Morally you're totally correct, but its a reality of doing business nowadays. I like FFG's products and I want them to succeed. It's frustrating when you see them shoot themselves in the foot over these things.

I guess I don't see how FFG have shot themselves in the foot. For other games I play, there are frequent posts by people looking for a freebie, and not just ripping off people who made the work in the first place, but feeding off the people who actually bought the thing and take the time to do the scanning. And it's always "poor me, I have no money". Well, you're eating and you obviously have a computer, anything more is your own responsibility. If you can't afford it, you can't have it, period. It's weird: the luxury to whine over things you don't have that aren't essential to your well-being. The mind boggles.

I would like to start my reply saying that I dislike piracy and find it fair to the people who work so hard on these games to pay the correct amount for them.

But, why a limited Beta that only a few people can participate? Anyone could test Green Ronin's Dragon Age or Wotc's D&D Next and they did not even have to pay for it. So, although it is immoral, I do not see any other way out for people who miss the Beta to at least be able to "check" on the rules than if there is a scan.

My point is that there would be almost no one hoping for a scan to surface if anybody who wished to pay for it, could obtain those rules. like it is so with Dark Heresy, for instance.

I know the costs for printing are high, but some people, like myself, have paid several hundreds of dollars for the Eote Beta on Ebay and I doubt it they would not sell these copies. Point being that, from what I read, some people could favor the more cohese version of these rules.

I do not think piracy is justifiable, but, in this case, I would not be so quick to condemn this guy, because, with feedback extended to November, who knows when we will get the Core Book, next year?

I'm also heavily on the side of anti-piracy, but I also can't count on the community to vote with their wallet, not purchase the Beta, and send a message to LFL that digital products would alleviate a lot of the tension in this area. And that's coming from someone who prefers and collects dead tree editions.

Yep, I know it has been discussed over and over again, but the non-PDF issue is a bother, especially for those of us who are not from the US =)

Exactly. I have to believe it went something like this:

FFG: Sooo, Lucasfilm/Disney, thanks for granting us a license to make awesome new SWgames. Can we sell PDFs of our SW products?

Lucasfilm/Disney: No.

FFG: Got it, thanks. Moving on...

Not seeing how FFG shot themselves in the foot, either. I have to think it's the IP holder calling the bulk of the shots here.

Morally you're totally correct, but its a reality of doing business nowadays. I like FFG's products and I want them to succeed. It's frustrating when you see them shoot themselves in the foot over these things.

I guess I don't see how FFG have shot themselves in the foot. For other games I play, there are frequent posts by people looking for a freebie, and not just ripping off people who made the work in the first place, but feeding off the people who actually bought the thing and take the time to do the scanning. And it's always "poor me, I have no money". Well, you're eating and you obviously have a computer, anything more is your own responsibility. If you can't afford it, you can't have it, period. It's weird: the luxury to whine over things you don't have that aren't essential to your well-being. The mind boggles.

I don't think you read my posts to be candid, I also certainly don't appreciate you having a straw-man conversation with yourself and making out you're addressing me. I'll buy the beta if/when FFG decided they want to sell it to the majority of their customers. What I'm talking about is a lackluster marketing strategy that limits FFGs success, nothing more.

This isn't a PDF conversation from my perspective. This is about creating buzz around a limited run product, not having any pre-order numbers to generate a realistic number for that run. Then allowing a massive gap for legit customers to support the product.

It's going to be 2 weeks before product appears in stores, based on updates from the D20 Radio guys. I can't see many FLGS distributors picking the beta up already so that (and I appreciate I'm speculating here) but it will be 2 weeks before we see it on the FFG store, now we have a weird scenario where our community is split.

Instead they could have announced it like they did a couple of weeks ago and immediately opened their online store for pre-orders. People would have pre-ordered and then copies could have been shipping this weekend as people were picking up their Gencon copies. Now we have a unified community who could have beta tested together and gotten the feedback in by October.

Instead they already know they're behind and have pushed feedback into November which will either hinder their ability to incorporate late beta feedback or delays the retail release of the book.

Morally you're totally correct, but its a reality of doing business nowadays. I like FFG's products and I want them to succeed. It's frustrating when you see them shoot themselves in the foot over these things.

I guess I don't see how FFG have shot themselves in the foot. For other games I play, there are frequent posts by people looking for a freebie, and not just ripping off people who made the work in the first place, but feeding off the people who actually bought the thing and take the time to do the scanning. And it's always "poor me, I have no money". Well, you're eating and you obviously have a computer, anything more is your own responsibility. If you can't afford it, you can't have it, period. It's weird: the luxury to whine over things you don't have that aren't essential to your well-being. The mind boggles.

I don't think you read my posts to be candid, I also certainly don't appreciate you having a straw-man conversation with yourself and making out you're addressing me. I'll buy the beta if/when FFG decided they want to sell it to the majority of their customers. What I'm talking about is a lackluster marketing strategy that limits FFGs success, nothing more.

Hang on...the "you" in my post wasn't *you*, it was the people begging PDFs. Sorry for the confusion.

I still don't see what FFG has done poorly, that's my only point of difference with you...the real you You said people are pushed towards bad options basically because something exists that they can't have, and suggest this is FFG's fault, that it's lackluster marketing. But this game is getting a LOT of attention, and is being marketed quite well. The oddball dice are a barrier, and they seem to be getting past that. So there is no "pushing", just people wanting beyond their means.

Instead they could have announced it like they did a couple of weeks ago and immediately opened their online store for pre-orders. People would have pre-ordered and then copies could have been shipping this weekend as people were picking up their Gencon copies. Now we have a unified community who could have beta tested together and gotten the feedback in by October.

Instead they already know they're behind and have pushed feedback into November which will either hinder their ability to incorporate late beta feedback or delays the retail release of the book.

I think I'm going to agree with Whafrog on this. What you suggest would be a good strategy if their intent is to sell as many copies of the Beta as possible, but I'm not sure that's what they really want. I think that the Beta has two purposes: to get broader testing and feedback than they can from their regular playtesters, and to generate buzz (and therefore sales) for the full game when it comes out next year.

The testing/feedback stuff is necessarily limited - while the beta allows them to have a far greater number of people look at the game, I suspect that the average quality of feedback from beta purchasers is a lot less than the average quality of feedback from their regular playtesters. I'm sure that many beta purchasers don't give any feedback at all, and many more give feedback that isn't particularly helpful ("I think your book should have more Jedi in it"). I'm sure that the beta feedback is useful overall, but I doubt that it's vital to the game's success.

I think that generating buzz is a more important aspect to the beta than most people seem to think. To do that, you want enough people out there talking about The game (and loving it) but you want to leave lots of people hungry for the product without being too pissed off about it. It makes sense to sell primarily to people who are going to be really into your game, and that probably means people who make the effort to go to events like GenCon and people who go to really successful gaming stores. Charging for the beta makes sense too, especially if license issues mean you can't just release a free PDF like they're doing with Dark Heresy.

Instead they could have announced it like they did a couple of weeks ago and immediately opened their online store for pre-orders. People would have pre-ordered and then copies could have been shipping this weekend as people were picking up their Gencon copies. Now we have a unified community who could have beta tested together and gotten the feedback in by October.

Instead they already know they're behind and have pushed feedback into November which will either hinder their ability to incorporate late beta feedback or delays the retail release of the book.

I think I'm going to agree with Whafrog on this. What you suggest would be a good strategy if their intent is to sell as many copies of the Beta as possible, but I'm not sure that's what they really want. I think that the Beta has two purposes: to get broader testing and feedback than they can from their regular playtesters, and to generate buzz (and therefore sales) for the full game when it comes out next year.

The testing/feedback stuff is necessarily limited - while the beta allows them to have a far greater number of people look at the game, I suspect that the average quality of feedback from beta purchasers is a lot less than the average quality of feedback from their regular playtesters. I'm sure that many beta purchasers don't give any feedback at all, and many more give feedback that isn't particularly helpful ("I think your book should have more Jedi in it"). I'm sure that the beta feedback is useful overall, but I doubt that it's vital to the game's success.

I think that generating buzz is a more important aspect to the beta than most people seem to think. To do that, you want enough people out there talking about The game (and loving it) but you want to leave lots of people hungry for the product without being too pissed off about it. It makes sense to sell primarily to people who are going to be really into your game, and that probably means people who make the effort to go to events like GenCon and people who go to really successful gaming stores. Charging for the beta makes sense too, especially if license issues mean you can't just release a free PDF like they're doing with Dark Heresy.

I find your points contradictory though. You say that most of the feedback will be poor/testers will not give feedback, which implies you need a larger testing pool not smaller. Also I have no idea how many beta books they sold at Gencon, I'd be willing to make a bet that it will be a smaller number that is eventually sold through their online store.

I mean we're talking about the Beta book but FFG seem to be doing this with all their products. Just look at the Specialization deck, there isn't even a direct link to where you can purchase them in the announcement copy.

Anyway I'll bow out of this topic at this stage, I was originally responding to the person who was frustrated at the lack of communication/release structure around the Beta book and I felt myself it points to wider issue in FFG's approach. I don't have any expectations anyone at FFG to make changes (do they even read these boards?), lets hope it's on the store early next week.

I find your points contradictory though. You say that most of the feedback will be poor/testers will not give feedback, which implies you need a larger testing pool not smaller. Also I have no idea how many beta books they sold at Gencon, I'd be willing to make a bet that it will be a smaller number that is eventually sold through their online store.

I was saying that the signal-to-noise ratio of an open beta is a lot worse than in closed testing. Having more testers wouldn't solve this problem. In fact, it can make it worse, because the game designers only have so much time to go through the feedback.

I'm sure that they will sell plenty of books online, but my point was that they aren't necessarily trying to sell lots of books. They probably expect the print run to sell out, and they want to get as many copies into the hands of people who will be good promoters as possible.

I'm saying that, on average, someone who goes to GenCon is going to sell more people on the final game than someone who shops the online store. If that's part of their plan, it makes sense to do it the way they are doing it.

It has already surfaced on Ebay... For an initial bid of US$ 100 ouch!

grumble grumble...gencon grumble...

I keep repeating to myself "Patience is a Virtue" but it isn't helping much...

Sigh.

It has already surfaced on Ebay... For an initial bid of US$ 100 ouch!

I was shocked to see the dice set WotCis handing out sold for $50 yesterday.

grumble grumble...gencon grumble...

I keep repeating to myself "Patience is a Virtue" but it isn't helping much...

Sigh.

I know. The image of P. J. Fry keeps popping in my head with his wise words:

'SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!'

grumble grumble...gencon grumble...

I keep repeating to myself "Patience is a Virtue" but it isn't helping much...

Sigh.

I was planning to go this year but it didn't work out. Next year I will go. Probably the release of the FaD beta and 5th edition D&D.

Wait $50 for a set of dice given out free?

Or did I get that mixed up?

So $100 for a copy of the Beta which should be widely available in a couple of weeks hopefully...

Need a smiley with both hands held together as if praying because they are!

a fool and his money are soon ebay'd

Why doesn't FFG want my money right now?

I thought they wanted to sell copies of this beta book... I'm so confused.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330993866040?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

$100 isn't too bad, considering it's the only one on Ebay and there aren't any on Amazon. I guess its the only option.

Why doesn't FFG want my money right now?

I thought they wanted to sell copies of this beta book... I'm so confused

they must have taken the Dungeon World 101 course dealing with cons, marketing, and hardcover availability

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330993866040?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

$100 isn't too bad, considering it's the only one on Ebay and there aren't any on Amazon. I guess its the only option.

nice try, turbincowboy! (maybe a joke? maybe not?)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330993866040?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

$100 isn't too bad, considering it's the only one on Ebay and there aren't any on Amazon. I guess its the only option.

Im sorry this is just stupid lol. Give it a week or 2 and it will be on ebay for like 50 bucks.