To make things interesting for t

I make the pilot roll for piloting maneuvers. This allows the better pilots to be better and adds ATTD into the mix.

Let me explain this a little more. To make things interesting for the pilot during combat I have required that the pilot maneuvers for silhouette 4 ships require an action and a successful piloting check. Silhouette 3 and below ships will be run btb.

It has made combat more exciting for the pilot. Not sure if I will keep this in the long run but it is working for now.

Adding a check to accelerating and flying straight in a freighter makes it more exciting? I don't think we would enjoy the same things.

People enjoy games in different ways. Imagine that.

I'm thinking that requiring a check for Evasive Maneuvers and some of the other Manoeuvres could make sense in some cases, although I wouldn't upgrade it to an Action every time. For instance I'd let the pilot move/fly/drive (which is a manoeuvre) closer to a target while in an asteroid field, which would require a pilot check and then also let him make a Gain the Advantage action (of course these two checks could easily be merged into one really), or attack with pilot controlled weapons after the move.

Questions: "evasive maneuvers" can be done against any attack at any range, same with "stay on target" I assume (pointless of course if too far away sure). What about Gain the Advantage? The general feeling about it screams dogfight, which is the close range band, but what if you have short range weapons? could you gain the advantage then? I'd think so. Hm. Don't know why I started to think about this.

Use a ship hardpoint to stick some forward arc laser cannon on the ship that is controlled by the pilot. Then they can choose to attack if they want.

Also, cut the meta gaming table talk.

My group has a bad habit of not thinking things through. They don't plan things out, they don't think ahead. So when the you-know-what hits the fan, they basically pause gameplay and work out a plan.

I let this go for about 3 seconds before I force action. You didn't plan ahead. Did you bust down the door firing away, or did you walk in planning to talk to the target? Then a guard comes up behind and starts combat. Guess you should have discussed this earlier.

How does this help your situation? Don't let the others tell the pilot what to do. The pilot should be forming a relationship with the ship. It should be an extension of themselves. They decide how to fly. No one tells Han what to do, at least not without getting snapped at.

Sure, they can yell "keep 'er steady" into the comms in hopes of taking a better shot, but if the pilot is worried the ship is going to get hit, she should be making the second by second descisions on how to fly.

To make things interesting for t

I make the pilot roll for piloting maneuvers. This allows the better pilots to be better and adds ATTD into the mix.

Let me explain this a little more. To make things interesting for the pilot during combat I have required that the pilot maneuvers for silhouette 4 ships require an action and a successful piloting check. Silhouette 3 and below ships will be run btb.

It has made combat more exciting for the pilot. Not sure if I will keep this in the long run but it is working for now.

Adding a check to accelerating and flying straight in a freighter makes it more exciting? I don't think we would enjoy the same things.

Well, yes. Adding a check (even if it's a Simple one) give the pilot the opportunity (as mentioned above) to accrue Advantage, Triumph, Threat, and Despair. These things all add variety to the scene, thus they make the scene more exciting.

It's not that rolling a small handful of dice is exciting. (No more so than that act is exciting for the scoundrel on the ground shooting his blaster.) It's not that the success/failure axis of that roll can add excitement, since if you can't actually *fail* because there was no roll required, dealing with the resulting Advantage, Triumph, Threat & Despair can.

And who says the freighter is "flying straight"? It might not be terribly maneuverable, but the bloody thing can certainly do more than fly in a straight line.

To make things interesting for t

I make the pilot roll for piloting maneuvers. This allows the better pilots to be better and adds ATTD into the mix.

Let me explain this a little more. To make things interesting for the pilot during combat I have required that the pilot maneuvers for silhouette 4 ships require an action and a successful piloting check. Silhouette 3 and below ships will be run btb.

It has made combat more exciting for the pilot. Not sure if I will keep this in the long run but it is working for now.

Adding a check to accelerating and flying straight in a freighter makes it more exciting? I don't think we would enjoy the same things.

Well, yes. Adding a check (even if it's a Simple one) give the pilot the opportunity (as mentioned above) to accrue Advantage, Triumph, Threat, and Despair. These things all add variety to the scene, thus they make the scene more exciting.

It's not that rolling a small handful of dice is exciting. (No more so than that act is exciting for the scoundrel on the ground shooting his blaster.) It's not that the success/failure axis of that roll can add excitement, since if you can't actually *fail* because there was no roll required, dealing with the resulting Advantage, Triumph, Threat & Despair can.

And who says the freighter is "flying straight"? It might not be terribly maneuverable, but the bloody thing can certainly do more than fly in a straight line.

There are certain things that just shouldn't require a roll. Walking in a straight line shouldn't require a roll, nor should simply accelerating or flying a ship in a straight path. Adding in the possibility of wild dice results just to make something mundane into something more interesting loses the fact that those mundane activities should not be the focus of the scene and should be accompanied by actions that actually matter (and are rolled).

To make things interesting for t

I make the pilot roll for piloting maneuvers. This allows the better pilots to be better and adds ATTD into the mix.

Let me explain this a little more. To make things interesting for the pilot during combat I have required that the pilot maneuvers for silhouette 4 ships require an action and a successful piloting check. Silhouette 3 and below ships will be run btb.

It has made combat more exciting for the pilot. Not sure if I will keep this in the long run but it is working for now.

Adding a check to accelerating and flying straight in a freighter makes it more exciting? I don't think we would enjoy the same things.

Well, yes. Adding a check (even if it's a Simple one) give the pilot the opportunity (as mentioned above) to accrue Advantage, Triumph, Threat, and Despair. These things all add variety to the scene, thus they make the scene more exciting.

It's not that rolling a small handful of dice is exciting. (No more so than that act is exciting for the scoundrel on the ground shooting his blaster.) It's not that the success/failure axis of that roll can add excitement, since if you can't actually *fail* because there was no roll required, dealing with the resulting Advantage, Triumph, Threat & Despair can.

And who says the freighter is "flying straight"? It might not be terribly maneuverable, but the bloody thing can certainly do more than fly in a straight line.

There are certain things that just shouldn't require a roll. Walking in a straight line shouldn't require a roll, nor should simply accelerating or flying a ship in a straight path. Adding in the possibility of wild dice results just to make something mundane into something more interesting loses the fact that those mundane activities should not be the focus of the scene and should be accompanied by actions that actually matter (and are rolled).

There is absolutely *nothing* in the universe that remains a mundane action when you're doing it while dealing with incoming fire. The whole thread is about how to make sure that Piloting the ship during combat isn't a boring matter of saying, "I fly the ship.", round after round. Insisting that that's the only thing the pilot can do, even to the point of repeatedly claiming that the pilot is flying "in a straight line" or on "a straight path", is utterly contrary to the topic of the thread.

To make things interesting for t

I make the pilot roll for piloting maneuvers. This allows the better pilots to be better and adds ATTD into the mix.

Let me explain this a little more. To make things interesting for the pilot during combat I have required that the pilot maneuvers for silhouette 4 ships require an action and a successful piloting check. Silhouette 3 and below ships will be run btb.

It has made combat more exciting for the pilot. Not sure if I will keep this in the long run but it is working for now.

Adding a check to accelerating and flying straight in a freighter makes it more exciting? I don't think we would enjoy the same things.

Well, yes. Adding a check (even if it's a Simple one) give the pilot the opportunity (as mentioned above) to accrue Advantage, Triumph, Threat, and Despair. These things all add variety to the scene, thus they make the scene more exciting.

It's not that rolling a small handful of dice is exciting. (No more so than that act is exciting for the scoundrel on the ground shooting his blaster.) It's not that the success/failure axis of that roll can add excitement, since if you can't actually *fail* because there was no roll required, dealing with the resulting Advantage, Triumph, Threat & Despair can.

And who says the freighter is "flying straight"? It might not be terribly maneuverable, but the bloody thing can certainly do more than fly in a straight line.

There are certain things that just shouldn't require a roll. Walking in a straight line shouldn't require a roll, nor should simply accelerating or flying a ship in a straight path. Adding in the possibility of wild dice results just to make something mundane into something more interesting loses the fact that those mundane activities should not be the focus of the scene and should be accompanied by actions that actually matter (and are rolled).

There is absolutely *nothing* in the universe that remains a mundane action when you're doing it while dealing with incoming fire.

And, again, you're making the assumption that, even while the ship is being shot at, the pilot is flying in a "straight path".

The rules pretty clearly disagree with you.

Flying = Walking/Running

Neither requires a roll, whether straight-line or not. Neither does conversation or carrying items within your encumbrance limits.

To make things interesting for t

I make the pilot roll for piloting maneuvers. This allows the better pilots to be better and adds ATTD into the mix.

Let me explain this a little more. To make things interesting for the pilot during combat I have required that the pilot maneuvers for silhouette 4 ships require an action and a successful piloting check. Silhouette 3 and below ships will be run btb.

It has made combat more exciting for the pilot. Not sure if I will keep this in the long run but it is working for now.

Adding a check to accelerating and flying straight in a freighter makes it more exciting? I don't think we would enjoy the same things.

Well, yes. Adding a check (even if it's a Simple one) give the pilot the opportunity (as mentioned above) to accrue Advantage, Triumph, Threat, and Despair. These things all add variety to the scene, thus they make the scene more exciting.

It's not that rolling a small handful of dice is exciting. (No more so than that act is exciting for the scoundrel on the ground shooting his blaster.) It's not that the success/failure axis of that roll can add excitement, since if you can't actually *fail* because there was no roll required, dealing with the resulting Advantage, Triumph, Threat & Despair can.

And who says the freighter is "flying straight"? It might not be terribly maneuverable, but the bloody thing can certainly do more than fly in a straight line.

There are certain things that just shouldn't require a roll. Walking in a straight line shouldn't require a roll, nor should simply accelerating or flying a ship in a straight path. Adding in the possibility of wild dice results just to make something mundane into something more interesting loses the fact that those mundane activities should not be the focus of the scene and should be accompanied by actions that actually matter (and are rolled).

I don't want piloting during combat to be a mundane thing. But to each his own.

To make things interesting for t

I make the pilot roll for piloting maneuvers. This allows the better pilots to be better and adds ATTD into the mix.

Let me explain this a little more. To make things interesting for the pilot during combat I have required that the pilot maneuvers for silhouette 4 ships require an action and a successful piloting check. Silhouette 3 and below ships will be run btb.

It has made combat more exciting for the pilot. Not sure if I will keep this in the long run but it is working for now.

Adding a check to accelerating and flying straight in a freighter makes it more exciting? I don't think we would enjoy the same things.

Well, yes. Adding a check (even if it's a Simple one) give the pilot the opportunity (as mentioned above) to accrue Advantage, Triumph, Threat, and Despair. These things all add variety to the scene, thus they make the scene more exciting.

It's not that rolling a small handful of dice is exciting. (No more so than that act is exciting for the scoundrel on the ground shooting his blaster.) It's not that the success/failure axis of that roll can add excitement, since if you can't actually *fail* because there was no roll required, dealing with the resulting Advantage, Triumph, Threat & Despair can.

And who says the freighter is "flying straight"? It might not be terribly maneuverable, but the bloody thing can certainly do more than fly in a straight line.

There are certain things that just shouldn't require a roll. Walking in a straight line shouldn't require a roll, nor should simply accelerating or flying a ship in a straight path. Adding in the possibility of wild dice results just to make something mundane into something more interesting loses the fact that those mundane activities should not be the focus of the scene and should be accompanied by actions that actually matter (and are rolled).

I don't want piloting during combat to be a mundane thing. But to each his own.

Will you require Athletics and/or Coordination checks to move in personal combat?

Will you require Athletics and/or Coordination checks to move in personal combat?

If they were trying a special maneuver like jumping over tables or something sure. Normal movement during combat no.

In space combat normal movement like flying from point A to point B does not require a roll. Trying evasive maneuvers or keeping the ship steady under fire requires rolls.

Accelerating doesn't require a roll since I don't track speed and ships are assumed to be accelerating and decelerating constantly. On any turn you can fly whatever speed you are capable of to do whatever you are trying do that turn.

The rules pretty clearly disagree with you.

Flying = Walking/Running

Neither requires a roll, whether straight-line or not. Neither does conversation or carrying items within your encumbrance limits.

Strangely enough, the rules *include* scenarios where walking or running requires a roll. Analogous scenarios during space flight would, likewise, require rolls.

Of course, now you're claiming that conversation doesn't require rolls. So I guess Charm, Coercion, Deception, and Negotiation are utterly useless skills, especially since they're primarily *about* conversing with others. You're mixing up 'not every conversation/piloting scenario requires a roll' with 'you cannot make a roll when talking/flying a ship'.

There's certainly nothing in the rules that *prohibits* a GM from requiring or allowing a roll, even when one isn't *normally* required. Just as there's no rule that prohibits a GM from *not* requiring or allowing a roll, even when one *is* normally required. And drop the whole 'straight line' BS, you're the only one who insists that flying a transport in combat is the same as flying in a straight line.

Will you require Athletics and/or Coordination checks to move in personal combat?

If they were trying a special maneuver like jumping over tables or something sure. Normal movement during combat no.

In space combat normal movement like flying from point A to point B does not require a roll. Trying evasive maneuvers or keeping the ship steady under fire requires rolls.

Accelerating doesn't require a roll since I don't track speed and ships are assumed to be accelerating and decelerating constantly. On any turn you can fly whatever speed you are capable of to do whatever you are trying do that turn.

Exactly.

Dupe post.

In the case of starship combat, I'd be encouraging dice rolls. Driving down the highway require's one's full attention, but doesn't really need a roll. However, texting and driving is illegal in a number of provinces and states for good reasons, as one is distracted by other things. The more distractions, the more difficult it is to keep an eye on the road.

Now imagine driving down the highway with someone with serious road rage somewhere near you, who is either trying to run you off the road, or who has produced a firearm. In this case, the distraction is very real, and the person driving the car has to concentrate very hard to not lose control of the vehicle while the firefight is going on.

At minimum, I'd be using the chase mechanic.

This next part is more metagaming, but truthfully as a GM I want my players entertained. This thread started out with the problem with one of the players, who should be playing a central role, feeling like a 5th wheel because they weren't able to do what they designed their character to do. The best tool beyond personal imagination in this game for helping to generating narrative are the dice... generating success, failure, advantage, threat, triumph, and despair can give both players and GM a way to narrate how the space combat goes.

Part of the problem is the pilot him/herself. If all he is doing is flying in a straight line, that is pretty boring. Nothing the game can do to solve that. However, how many dog fights or chase scenes for that matter involve 2 objects flying in a straight continuous line??

The pilot should come up with some fun maneuvers, ask the GM and with approval assemble a dice pool. Like "I cut power to the engines suddenly for several seconds, and as he flys by, then punch it to maneuver behind him for a better firing solution"

This is the beauty of the narrative system, it's not all on the GM's shoulders alone to describe the scene, players can have a dramatic effect, given the right rolls.

Part of the problem is the pilot him/herself. If all he is doing is flying in a straight line, that is pretty boring. Nothing the game can do to solve that. However, how many dog fights or chase scenes for that matter involve 2 objects flying in a straight continuous line??

The pilot should come up with some fun maneuvers, ask the GM and with approval assemble a dice pool. Like "I cut power to the engines suddenly for several seconds, and as he flys by, then punch it to maneuver behind him for a better firing solution"

This is the beauty of the narrative system, it's not all on the GM's shoulders alone to describe the scene, players can have a dramatic effect, given the right rolls.

I think that's basically what "Gain the Advantage" is supposed to simulate. That said, I tend to agree. If they can spell out something clever, let them make a roll and give a minor boost or setback to allies and/or enemies.

When it gets down to it, you can equate starship combat to regular personal scale combat. The pilot is the legs, the gunners are your arms, and your mechanic is the guy next to you madly stabbing you in the butt with stimpacks. Being the legs can be kind of boring. Especially when you consider a stock starting freighter is basically a portly, slightly drunk, over the hill teamster, who somehow pissed off a squad of stormtroopers. That said, with some creativity I'm sure you can still make him dance.

Well that could be a variation of an existing Action, the Gain the Advantage still that is a way to go for narration and cinematics.

I mean one could allow a pilot to "upgrade" a Maneouvre into an Action (of one feels that its necessary that is) - for instance Evasive Maneuvers upgraded to Evasive Action (!!!) which in turn means that if the player rolls well, the manoeuvre is boosted, which provides either a second upgrade to opponents attack check, or a downgrade of the opponents attack dice pool, an extra setback die (i.e. +1 "general" defence - from cover and terrain and tricky flying) as the pilot evades behind a larger ship, quickly turn a few corners as they chase through the Nar Shaddaa skyscraper terrain.

As long as these effects do not replicate talents or the like, I'm open for this. Once the players have the basics of space combat figured out and understand it fairly well. Too many options can bog down play and make it boring, even as boring as only flying straight

Gain the advantage requires speed 4+ ?... I'm AFB right now, but that seems a bit silly. Personally I'd house rule that particular facet out of the game, if for no other reason than to prevent the OP's scenario from ever happening.

When it gets down to it, you can equate starship combat to regular personal scale combat. The pilot is the legs, the gunners are your arms, and your mechanic is the guy next to you madly stabbing you in the butt with stimpacks. Being the legs can be kind of boring. Especially when you consider a stock starting freighter is basically a portly, slightly drunk, over the hill teamster, who somehow pissed off a squad of stormtroopers. That said, with some creativity I'm sure you can still make him dance.

Now that's an image that won't easily leave my head.

It's a great analogy.

Gain the advantage requires speed 4+ ?... I'm AFB right now, but that seems a bit silly. Personally I'd house rule that particular facet out of the game, if for no other reason than to prevent the OP's scenario from ever happening.

You are correct, it requires a speed of 4+. This action is intended to simulate starfighter dogfights, which is why that speed requirement exists.

Gain the advantage requires speed 4+ ?... I'm AFB right now, but that seems a bit silly. Personally I'd house rule that particular facet out of the game, if for no other reason than to prevent the OP's scenario from ever happening.

It makes sense, because gain the advantage is primarily a dogfighting maneuver, and freighters aren't built for dogfighting. The Firespray is, (Speed 4), but the other two ships will have drawbacks. That having been said, I would still allow for the pilot to be making piloting action checks each round, putting them in the driver's seat in terms of what they want to do when hauling their big craft around. We can get creative as to what dice we pull out, but knowing full well that even a heavily modified YT-1300 can't outrun TIE Fighters... and only a really great pilot can out maneuver them.

Well think of it, you're in a space freighter, it is meant to haul cargo from point A to B. You're not flying a tweaked out, modded like crazy Millennium Falcon. Do you really expect to be doing crazy aerial maneuvers? It is not a ship meant for dog fighting. If that is what you want then as someone suggested, purchase an escort starfighter and have a PC pilot that.

You essentially driving a tractor trailer with some turrets mounted on it for self defense. Would you expect to be able to out manouver a cop car chasing you down the highway? No.

One house-rule (that I'm now picking from a thread on the d20radio forum, and adding from memory probably) on this is that slower ships and larger ships (like a silhouette 5) could also perform this Action (and some of the manoeuvres) as long as the opposing ship is at least of equal size, and in the case of silhouette 3 and lower (and perhaps a slow silhouette 4 starship) no faster. So an unmodified YT-1300 could perform a Gain the Advantage against a Silhouette 5, and other silhouette 4 ships, as long as these other silhouette 4 starship were no faster than speed 3. But not against a silhouette 3 starship.

There's one thing that struck me while I was reading this thread: If you require the pilot to make a roll for flying the ship, what then about single-person starfighters? In a chase situation (or any space battle, for that matter) X-Wings and TIE fighters would be forced to choose between flying their ships or shooting, since you can only take one action per round.

One house-rule (that I'm now picking from a thread on the d20radio forum, and adding from memory probably) on this is that slower ships and larger ships (like a silhouette 5) could also perform this Action (and some of the manoeuvres) as long as the opposing ship is at least of equal size, and in the case of silhouette 3 and lower (and perhaps a slow silhouette 4 starship) no faster. So an unmodified YT-1300 could perform a Gain the Advantage against a Silhouette 5, and other silhouette 4 ships, as long as these other silhouette 4 starship were no faster than speed 3. But not against a silhouette 3 starship.

That's probably how it should have been written in the first place.

Of course, I wouldn't add such a house rule, I want my players to suffer and realise they have to spend their hard earned cash on their starship too, make it faster and stronger.

I have also made an attachment for Silhouette 5 starships that allows them to perform some silhouette 1-4 manoeuvres and actions in exchange for system strain - of course they also need the speed.