Hey Tibs, if I deal 3 investigator sheets to each player and everyone chooses out of those 3, does it still count as chosen before/after AO? Or is it random since we're dealing them?

Honestly, Dam... I believe all the spreadsheets are interconnected. When a submission is added all the sheets are updated. You can continue using the old one. However, I removed the color-coding because I had to update it each time I updated the page. It would not automatically update, unfortunately.

Knuckles Eki said:

Good question! I would say if it's 3 or more, you're choosing. Two or less, it's random. But you should use your own judgment.

• Stats report for September 1, 2009:

(Deleted: obsolete)

Tibs said:

Egad! I'm 2-1-0 so far vs Zhar ! Is he going do be IH's Shudde M'ell for me (5-1-0 against Shudde so far)?

Tibs said:

This is also quite surprising. I mean, yeah, his slumber party is pretty minor in most games, but both 13 doomers from IH are above him and Bokrug is at 65% restlessness with same 12 doom track.

Also, shameful month for me, just 3 games of AH .

I'd like to point out the fact that even though everyone seems to agree that Daisy is broken, she doesn't seem to help win games, as she's closer to the bottom of the list. Patrice on the other hand, the other character everyone seems to agree is broken, really does help in winning the game.

Daisy either isn't as broken as people say, or people don't know how to use her.

johnwatersfan said:

She's broken in the hands of a veteran. If you don't already know your spells, picking out one is daunting. Plus many players don't like spells. I've put her back into the mix just to see what folks will do with her. I refuse to give advice about her, however. On the other hand, Patrice's charms are clear and abundant. If the Patrice player doesn't offer her clues to them, other players will certainly remind her of their need for them. Even Wendy's advantages aren't perfectly clear to the novice, though once they're ascertained, players adapt rather quickly, though many players want to kill even if they are a little girl.

Daisy comes in Kingsport, and Kingsport was a hard expansion. If Daisy was in the base game, she'd be much higher up the list, because players would be winning more games with her due to how easy the base game is.

Patrice, on the other hand, comes in Innsmouth, the hardest expansion. Note how far up the list she is, especially compared to the other Innsmouth investigators. Patrice's broken-ness dwarfs Daisy's.

As for Chaugnar Faugn, Zhar, and Quachil Uttaus's final combat, it's just a matter of time. As the months go on, the stats will level off. I'll bet Zhar doesn't wind up being hardest. I'll bet that people will start beating Chaugnar Faugn in combat here and there. I just noticed today that there was only one submission, ever, of a victory against Tsathoggua in final combat. There was one reported victory against QU in final combat too. But there were a lot more games with Tsathoggua because he came in Dunwich. Plus the one QU combat win was with one investigator, Joe Diamond, probably not playing with Kevin's final combat limit rule. My money's on QU climbing to the top of the combat chart (under Azathoth) as time goes on, with Tsathoggua right under him. Atlach-Nacha may not remain #1 forever, but he will probably be #2 or 3.

Tibs said:

Forgot to bitc..., err, comment about this. When will you people stop ragging on the poor BGotW Herald and start the anti-Ghroth campaign ? Almost 10% more difficult than BGotW. I know in my games, BGotW wouldn't normally add 2 doomers that Ghroth adds automatically. 1 doomer in most cases, 2+ monster surges doesn't happen every game (and there are those 17 Mythos card games with 0 monster surges).

Kingsport is a harder expansion than Black Goat. That's likely why the difference is so large. But yeah, two doom tokens to boot is significant. Almost as significant as one per surge, but I still believe that Black Goat's penalty is worse overall.

Not every game using Ghroth features KH (though checking the stats, many do). Unless you mean KH = KH GOOs.

And it looks like Morgaln is to "blame", there was a stretch in the stats where he lost 11of 14 games to any GOO + Ghroth .

Dilution (again). Adding Dunwich and Innsmouth to the mix increases the number of gates and decreases the number of monster surges. Black Goat was tested with only the base game, so there would have been more surges in the play testing. Play it as intended with only the base game and the expansion and I think you'll have more respect for the Black Goat.

Also NOT using Kingsport in an "all-in" game also decreases the number of surges because it decreases the number of gates appearing in Arkham proper.

Ghroth on the other hand always adds two doom tokens and might add another one (or more). So he doesn't suffer from dilution.

mageith said:

Does Tibs only play base + BGotW? I doubt it, yet he has always been one of the most vocal opponents of BGotW Herald.

Dam said:

Only a fool would play base game plus BGotW. That was kind of my point.

But Tibs does play with Kingsport Horror which means he'll have about 15% more matching gates (27/180 mythos cards) since nearly all of Kingsport mythos cards are arkham gates. Matching gates translate into monster surges, gate bursts or gate bumps. In an average 18 mythos card game that's 2.7 more surges, bursts or bumps. That's a lot! (In fact it's more than I imagined. Maybe my math's off?) At any rate there's obviously a bigger chance of a matching Arkham gate.

You and Tibs are really playing different games when it comes to Black Goat (in fact any game where gate bumps, bursts and bumps make a difference). In addition, Kingsport has the strongest mix of monsters which also means that Black Goat, which delivers an extra monster per gate is significantly tougher when Kingsport monsters are in the mix.

You really need to borrow Kingsport so you can find out why many of the rest of us are gunshy.

Black Goat is a ***** of a herald for no other reason than random savagery. Some games you'll have very few surges, and it'll be so tense, and you win or lose with one turn difference, and those are the great games. More often, the Goat seems to overwhelm me with many surges per game, and I end up fighting the ancient one. Win or lose, it takes some fun away if that happens a lot.

It's also somewhat disfavorable that the herald is the only practical way to get the really neat corruption mechanic. As a result, the only time you can make use of the cult is the only time you don't want more corruption, because it's spilling out everywhere anyway.

Generally, the poor reaction to the herald, it seems, is a result of the problems in the expansion itself. That, or he's somewhat harsh.

Perhaps Dam's reaction to Ghroth is an aspect of his hating Kingsport.

flamethrower49 said:

Actually, I haven't reacted to Ghroth, I've been defending BGotW, which people claim is too powerful, but the stats don't back that up. BGotW got a flame-storm pretty soon after people read the card, but I don't remember people saying anything of the sort about Ghroth. Could be I missed the anti-Ghroth thread(s), but unlikely.

Any Herald that makes things harder is a good thing my book, though that book has very few words and lots of pictures.

As I said, the stats site doesn't back it up just because of the nature of their accompanying expansions' difficulties. When the Black Goat herald first hit the scene, it was by far the easiest herald. Easier even than using no herald. That should say something about the stats reports and how expansions affect difficulty.

I would say that Black Goat is harder than Ghroth. Ghroth puts down two doom tokens and is done, for the most part. Black Goat seems to bring more than two doom tokens, and bring them at the worst possible times. Not to mention, it has far more effects than Ghroth.

Dam said:

When a herald is on average as hard as or harder than some Ancient Ones, it becomes a bit of a problem. Ghroth might have worked better has an Ancient One. Black Goat should at least offer a chance or a choice to prevent the added doom token.

Don't forget that the whole of the Black Goat expansion is my least favorite too... not just the herald

Tibs said:

At least I can agree with you on the favourite .

I find the corruption cards in BGotW interesting. It's funny seeing one player get so corrupted it seems he's on the ancient one's side.

Woo, got Dunwich horror. I'll start adding some Dunwich-enabled stats

Knuckles Eki said:

Hopefully this will mean the 4th official completion of "Join the Winning Team" soon .

There has been a 4th completion, fairly recently.

1. Kormith, against Cthulhu
2. Anonymous, against Nyarlathotep
3. Dam, against Azathoth
4. McCaber, against Hastur

I just noticed in your statistics joining the winning team counts as a loss. What if I'm the one who joins the winning team? I managed to do it I think I should be able to add is as MY win when I add the stats.

You can personally regard your actions as a "victory." But since you helped bring about the Ancient One, it awoke and destroyed Arkham. This consequence is wholly equivalent to the outcome of any other "loss" condition. Look at Dam's actions: he helped bring Azathoth to our world! That can't be considered a victory.

But to honor those brave traitors who joined the winning team, I've color-coded it so that it stands out.

Tibs said:

If the GOO had been Nyarlathotep, especially since the Herald in that game was the Dark Pharoah, would you be singing a different tune ?

Well, I can't imagine that the investigators ordinarily attempt to stop Nyarlathotep from entering our world because he's going to be too nice to us.