Farewell!

I got a long holiday off work this week and decided to drop by and
say farewell to the friends Ive made here.

Bard (and Laura) - Its been real. Once in a while we will have to try to play some "COC CCG" on line.
Your a good player, and I expect you to carry the Stahleck mantle next yr (if there is anyone
left playing this game by then). Ive been looking at some other games, so we will have to get lackey fired up again.

Nomad - Lets try and get a 3R game going..or perhaps some Titan or Russian Campaign.

Carioz - See you again on other projects!

Meatheard - If your still on these boards - if you do end up in the orient let me know, Id
be happy to hook up.

Thorondor - Stahl was real. If you decide to make it "nate free" maybe Ill show again (My wife badly wants to visit near your
hometown, and we do a trip a yr). ill have to look up the middle-earth stuff up you had mentioned...do you guys do any online stuff?

To the PA gang - Its been real, I'll most certainly be back in Rons shop, so Ill see you guys again,
and to Hastur, good luck on the up and coming move. Hastur has filled me in on Dominion, so I will be building
a deck to attempt to out-inifinite draw Ron ;-)....just like old times! I'll most certainly be back in town at least once
next yr, so Ill ping you guys before hand.

............

Actually I quit this summer (exactly 2/3 of the way through Nates brilliant "I coulda made it Highlander" threat (and BTW Nate,
its not wise to threaten those who pay your salary)). Carioz got ahold of me a bit ago, and curiosity
got the better of me. After almost 6 months off, I thought that maybe it wasnt as bad as I had thought.

Turns out it was worse.

So it looks like rotation is now a reality (just look at AGOT, out of the handfull of metas I know there, NONE are playing..and every Tier 1 player that I know of in COC has already pitched all their coc cards).
With the core set released, we can now see that combo is officially history and so is control. We are down to "random" as
the remaining deck type.

Down to 1 deck type..looks like the dumbing down prophecy came true...

The new cards themselves are god-aweful. Nate should be embarrassed (and fired).
They really kill the creativity in the game. Notice there isnt generic effects anymore (or useful ones for that matter).
The thing I loved most was taking "generic" effects and using them. Its only a matter of time before FFG begins issuing "decks" for tourny play.

Im curious Nate, what took longer

1) Reading the Mountians of Madness (did you actually read it?)

2) Making the cards

3) Finishing your latte

Carioz and I played some last week to test out the "polar == crap"
hypothesis....turns out its not crap, its worse. It was fun(ny) (we laughed for at least 30mins at the
innanity of the new cards) on a nostalgic level though, but given the state of affairs, I wont be continuing on to the white borders version of the game.

I may (time willing) be posting this week, and for those of you I met, please drop a line over the next few days.

Peace out
G

Good to have met you, Graham.

I can't say your assessment of the situation is off even by a bit, but don't you want to see how it turns out? It's like Keanu Reeves' acting, you know it's gonna be bad, but you have to see how bad. Whoa.

I'm sticking around because I am curious about how much of our play testing was used and what the final product will be. We pointed out the loose track and tumble down tressel, I have to see where the train ends up.

Start practicing Dominion now, Ron's addicted and all into the combos.

Let us know when you'll be in town.

Take it easy.

Don

Being someone who jumped ship back when the game went "Asylum Pack" two years ago, I took the whole thing very VERY hard because of my personal investment with the company simply to help this game thrive. I was using my own personal time to do a job that they were taking the time to fill after Casey left. So I sold everything and said "never again." I also have "quit" Magic a few times through the years as well. The moral? No matter how much you think you're "done" with a game, you'll always have a day when you'll come back and check up on how things have gone. And if things have turned around, you may buy in again. Heck, I went from "never again" to demoing for the company again. If that's not a turn around, I don't know what is.

II guess the thing is... sometimes all it takes is a shift in personal perspective and to realise that sometimes a game needs to make some strange choices for the sake of the whole. We don't know what's in the core set, and the next Assylum pack looks really solid. I agree, Polar was a pretty weak mechanic for one of HP's most beloved stories... but I guess I do feel a tad vindicated because I had been begging Eric to make a Giant Albino Penguin card for years and he promised it would neer happen. HEH. Anyway...

I understand what you're feeling. But any game that puts out expansions or new blocks will always pizz you off now and again. Take a break, but don't abandon it if you love the game. Just don't support the sets you think are lame and you'll never know the difference.

The_Rip-Off said:

you are most welcome. salzburg seems to attract japanese people a lot ;-) it was my pleasure to meet you!

there is going to be more stahleck fun for sure. for AGOT i have chosen NOT to follow the plans of FFG, especially for one reason: high level tournament play is not possible within the LCG format. all metas i know here in europe have the same opinion. but a meeting like this demands this high level. so we do our own thing - no problem at all for us players!

we dont know yet how the organized play program is going to be for COC. if i feel that the majority of the players do not want to follow FFG guidelines, we simply do not. thats easy enough. without any grudges.

@MECCG:

i just played an online game today. preparing for the annual online nations cup.

program is great (and of course free):

http://gccg.sourceforge.net/

by the way: there was some talk to have COC available there as well. i think its already running. did anybody try it???

Thanks Donald.

I know what you mean though, watching this thing go off the cliff, burst into flames and then smash into the valley below where it explodes and burns again is one of those things thats terrible to watch...but you can't take your eyes off it. I'd call it "key stone cops" development, but to be honest, its just sooo bad, it can't be entirely ineptitude. It seems like its some kinda wierd social experiament where they want to test the breaking power of the fan base..(wow the childish cards didnt do it, so lets screw up all the releases and then give them a new board which is inaccessable..no? ok lets rotate all the cards out and make their sets worthless). I find the new cards insulting to my intellgience actually.

Im up for dominion...I dont remember if I have you and rons email....can you drop me a line at [email protected] ? Is there an online version perhaps?

I may still secretly read the boards now and then....its fascinating watching the social experiament....but I can say with certainty that the game isnt gonna survive the next couple packs. "Win by boredom" is actually going to be a win condition. The Tier1 group has been cleaned out...now they got their eyes on the Tier2 group...several aps of "icon struggle" crap should remove them and start chewing through the Tier3 players. A while back I (half-jokingly) posted that the new FFG model was "everyone is a winner"...eg dumb done the cards and randomize it to the point where a newb could pick up the cards and challenge a world champ and still have a reasonable chance of success...then I saw on AGOT tourney program that "votes" go to 1st and LAST place...so I was right, we are headed in that direction! I almost think Nate saw the worlds cheating fiasco as an *opprotunity* to clean out alot of Tier1 players all at once (as opposed to just demonstrating his uselessness). I am VERY glad I didnt shell out the $1200 for the plane ticket to attend this yr (it would turned into a fight for sure...the "DAAAA I didnt know that stacking my deck was cheating DAAA" would have sent me into a rage)

PandaFarmer:

Thanks for your insight....it wasnt an easy decision to make (this is from someone who took the time and money to collect 4+ of EVERY card ever made). The next several APs are going to be abominations (I am 100% certain of it....there is NO doubt)....WORSE than polar..if you can picture that. Nate is a plague on this game. He really doesnt belong as a developer. The irony is, if the game ressurects later down the line, having missed all the new APs will be meaningless...the cards just arent useable (and thats the real problem...these new cards arent adding or changing the game at all, and nate seems think the solution is to ban/remove all the other cards till these will HAVE to be used). I've been contemplating selling my collection....not cause I think I will ever use it again, but because I love Lovecraft and it was so hard to get. But you are right.....never say never. Who knows...if Thorondor does a Nate free stahleck next yr maybe Ill show....but the honest truth is the fire is gone. Last yr I spent weeks honing the Jump engine, I could just never do that again.

Yeah I guess I'm the perfect example of why you should hang on to the cards, no matter how you feel at this moment. I've worked enough with FFG on the "inside" to know that things change pretty dramatically at the drop of a hat, and it's always possible that things will turn around closer to your personal interests. The gaming industry is a fickle one, and it's hard to please everyone, all of the time. It's a business like any, and choices are sometimes made for the sake of bringing in new players that alienate the old ones. I certainly felt abused and hurt when things changed they way they had. I busted my hump for the good of the community on my own time, only to have everything seemingly crash down. I certainly didn't expect this game to survive, so I sold everything I had for $20 (I also had x4 of everything in my favorite factions, and at least x1 of every rare outside of them) You know what? Even if it felt good to purge my collection at the time and make someone else very happy, I certainly regret now selling off everything I had. I didn't even keep my favorite decks, and even if I had the opportunity to get everything back, I don't know if I could remember exactly what was even in my most successful creations. I've done the same thing with Magic, but at least in that game it's not hard to restart. Put the cards away, or just keep them for the sake of the pretty pictures and love of Lovecraft. In a few years you may very well be very happy you did just for your own personal use, even if you never buy another pack again.

The Ripp-off, i'm sorry to see you leave but it was in the air since asylum packs III and so forward. It would be great to see you in Stahleck of somewhere. Maybe there will be a white bordered as well as black bordered game... Anyway, if you and your wife ever want to visit Finland Bard and I are propably around.

All the best to you,

Laura

Rio Grande Games' Dominion? Frakking awesome game!

As prospective new player, you all are scaring me. Of course I understand if older players are upset about format changes and early rotation of their collections, but this thread makes it sounds like the new LCG will be more or less hollow. You make it sound like the sky is falling.

Imagining that the old CCG never existed, and all we're going to have is the Core Set and the white-bordered cards, can some one explain what's going to be so bad. Bad card synnergy? Broken cards from the get-go? Low deck-building possibilities?

Please, someone give me some more info before I get scared away completely.

well, the game will be hollow since the card pool will be very limited (thanks to ffg and their decisions that are ruining the game)

And I mean very.

Besides - look at the core set - all cards are a 1-off, so if you want to play sth at a competitive level, you will need to buy at least 2 core sets, if not 3

and with a 3-off rule, you can't make a reliable and consistent combo deck ( you can make a combo deck per se, but it's sometimes a coin flip). control deck are also at a loss here, but not so heavily as combo decks. So only rush decks are left.

A pity that the old forums are gone, you would have find there a lot of answers for your questions.

Summing up - the game is getting dumbed down, which is a pity. on the other hand, you don't have to worry about broken cards - these either won't appear , or will be errated/banned.

just look at the last AP 6 - I see there 3-4 cards that border at being play able at tier 1,5 deck (definately not tier 1). That's why a lot of good players left.

So either you stick to ffg rules, and play only white boarded card. or you invent your own format...

edit - the new cards allow only for very limited synergy beetween them (unfortunately)

Nothing has been said so far about formats and rotation, so it seems that opinions are based on speculation and assumtions. The only cards that got banned so far are the rituals, and by popular demand The Rip-Off. The rituals where very problematic cards, and FFG did paint themselves into a corner with them - They made the game so much more random, and stiffled the ability to effectively create new cards, since any reasonable card could be played turn one and create another Rip-Off like effect. Eldritch Edition showed an enormous leap in powercreep on the cards too.

The new 3x format does level the playing field toward combo a little, but doesn't put it completely out of the picture. It's still possible to create powerful combo decks, but it's only slightly less likely to win the game on turn 1 or 2 with them. I don't think that giving the game a little more interaction doesn't leave it "hollow" or "dumbs things down" - In fact, it's likely more of being the opposite as you have to interact with your opponent more, or use manipulation tricks more to yield the same results as before.

Really, I've played some of the fastest rush decks there are, and they couldn't even compete with most combo decks anymore, even though they did nothing but play a characterless type of solitaire . It just wasn't healthy for the game as a whole, and reduced the whole development of new cards into ways to find magic bullets, instead of driving the game onwards to new themes and mechanics.

It's not like combo got banned or anything, and neither is true for control. Especially with combo, players have to be even more clever about them.

Just dropping by to say: "Until the next time".

I really hope you'll still be around if after hitting the rock bottom this game start to rise again.

See you around.

Guys, don't derail the topic, there is already a metric ton of "Nate sucks" post around, I am more then willing to fight on those, but let's at least keep this farewell thread civil.

Carioz said:

LOL. The OP derailed the thread!

ia! ia! Tier F'htagn

Are you guys with possible inside info claiming CoC LCG will not be fun for casual play? We want a beer and jager sit-down game centered on one of our favorite authors. I know this thread is centered on tournie investmeents, but feedback would be interesting as I find it hard to believe the game will be this poorly excecuted starting the first week in January.

Blutsteigen said:

Well, it works both for casual games as well as tourney games; Depends all on how you build your decks and your attitude towards gaming, really; The game is cusomizeable after all. You can try to make the most hardcore deck available, or make your decks follow a certain theme. The bannings and suspected format changes only matter on a tourney level, and then only for the most "officially sanctioned" tourneys.

It's like poker; You can play with your friends over M&M's, or join a high ante game with the sharks...

Marius said:

I agree, and we are going to enjoy ourselves immensely. I even have my penguins ready to go.

Thanks.

Exactly Marius. If you want high level tourney play, play Magic The Gathering. But even then the vast majority of MTG players are kitchen table players who will never walk into a sanctioned tourney. Quite honestly, FFG is not the kind of company that can sink thousands of dollars into a tourney scene. If there was money in it, people would come out of the woodwork from other games to play. But then you run the risks that Dreamblade and Marvel/DC Vs did, falling flat on the face in spice of successes.

Here what they are doing is appealing to the casual crowd now, which is always going to pizz off those who want competitve play. I was there at GenCon when Rainbow broke out of Philly team and kicked everyone all over the place. I had players who were so angry because in their experience, the game was very casual because their meta was 5-6 people that play. In that scheme of the game do you really need a turn 3-4 kill? Nope! Sure the game is dumbing down a little, but that means room to grow and learn from past mistakes.

The biggest pain about customizable card games is that while a board game only changes with skill mindsets of players. A card game depends on availiblity of cards and the money to aquire them. Now that this peice is eliminated from the fold to some respect, it's going to feel much different. But I think like others say, had we never had the collectible element in the game, would this be much different than Dominion? You know what though, I've even heard from seasoned Dominion players that even that beloved game gets old real fast once you play it enough and sort through all of the strategy. Eventually expansions will come out for that game to, and not all the new cards will appeal to your particular favorite strategy.

I just checked the boards and saw your message Graham, I am sad but not surprised to hear of your decision knowing your views on the state of the game.

You were a worthy winner of Stahleck 2007 and I shall never forget those epic struggles we had over the weekend. Ah, that Peasant Tourney with Ghoul Khannums, Fetch Sticks and Wild Beasts running amok really was a classic. As I recall we needed a calculator just to work out how many terror and combat icons we each had by the end...I remember I had four tokens on three stories at the end of turn 1 and lost anyway (it still gives me nightmares).

As has been said by others, please don't give up on the game entirely, who knows what the future holds. I would PM you just to chat at more length, but that seems tricky with the 'improved' boards. If you want to get in touch via the friends system, that would be great.

Cheers,

Andrew

PandaFarmer Wrote:

>Exactly Marius. If you want high level tourney play, play Magic The Gathering. But even then the vast majority of MTG players are kitchen table >players who will never walk into a sanctioned tourney. Quite honestly, FFG is not the kind of company that can sink thousands of dollars into a >tourney scene. If there was money in it, people would come out of the woodwork from other games to play. But then you run the risks that ?>Dreamblade and Marvel/DC Vs did, falling flat on the face in spice of successes.

Interesting concept...but Im not sure how they are sinking thousands into a tourny format? Can you elaborate?

>Here what they are doing is appealing to the casual crowd now, which is always going to pizz off those who want competitve play. I was there >at GenCon when Rainbow broke out of Philly team and kicked everyone all over the place. I had players who were so angry because in their >experience, the game was very casual because their meta was 5-6 people that play. In that scheme of the game do you really need a turn 3-4 >kill? Nope! Sure the game is dumbing down a little, but that means room to grow and learn from past mistakes.

There always seems to be a misconception about what Im talking about. I have no problem whatever the "average" game length is (2 turns or 20)...What I enjoyed most is the intellectual challenge the game provided. That has been/is being removed from the game systematically. (see bard/carioz/my eval on the polar fiasco)

As far as some casual players showing up and getting housed at worlds...WTF were they expecting? Just cause Jimmy pez has some byahkee deck that ruled his local meta he thinks he is owed a top raking at worlds? wow. Rainbow was a broken deck (another FFG failure), but I dont get the "I threw some cards together, I should be competative" stance of some people here. But the point is mute. The cards/strategies being issued by nate are essentially card flipping. Now anyone can and will win. I suspect after the newbs join and play for a bit that they will be bored with it pretty fast. as for the competative players in COC...well they already left. The draw of these games is always the intricate strategies, and the desire to make "the deck". For casual players...who cares what the comp guys were doing. Throw some cards together, have a few beers and flip cards. I guess thats the one area Ive always really never understood. Ironically, as best I can tell, there was only ever one real broken meta. People keep posting that the game was turning into a coin flip, yet Ive yet to see a non-PA deck that was that calliber (ex rip off which was one bad card). The "coin flip" phrase was used inover half the stahleck game descriptions, which I find ironic as I must of been in a different tourny (I certainly didnt see any decks that depended on the coin flip, and I went second in more than half the games).

>The biggest pain about customizable card games is that while a board game only changes with skill mindsets of players. A card game >depends on availiblity of cards and the money to aquire them. Now that this peice is eliminated from the fold to some respect, it's going to feel >much different. But I think like others say, had we never had the collectible element in the game, would this be much different than Dominion? >You know what though, I've even heard from seasoned Dominion players that even that beloved game gets old real fast once you play it >enough and sort through all of the strategy. Eventually expansions will come out for that game to, and not all the new cards will appeal to >your ?particular favorite strategy.

1) I am actually for/neutral the LCG thing. I dont really care how the cards are released.

2) Its not a particular strategy, its "strategy" in general. The game was a strategy game, now they are systematically wiping that aspect out. Now that Ive accepted that, Im out.

I hope im not coming across as edgy here, you hit on a couple of salient points, things that apparently myself (and the rest of the comp group) just dont "get". As an ex-insider your insight for the game is a bit different than they way we see (saw) it. From my perspective, the game was a strategy game that had some design problems that could have been fixed, and all of a sudden we went from a strategy game to Yu-Gi-Oh. At first I thought it was just a bad few sets, but now there is much more intent being shown, and the level is dropping below Yu-Gi-oh. In the test stuff bard/carioz/I did, I cant tell you how boring it was. We spent more time laughing at the decks/cards than anything else.

Li Zao wrote

>As prospective new player, you all are scaring me. Of course I understand if older players are upset about format changes and early rotation of >their collections, but this thread makes it sounds like the new LCG will be more or less hollow. You make it sound like the sky is falling.

The "old" players arent as upset about their collections as they are about the new "level of play" that is being defined as "competative". With "competative" being a misknowmer in the extreme.

>Imagining that the old CCG never existed, and all we're going to have is the Core Set and the white-bordered cards, can some one explain >what's going to be so bad. Bad card synnergy? Broken cards from the get-go? Low deck-building possibilities?

Bad card synnergy: If your a strategic player, who is looking for an intelligent game, then there is no synnergy now, as any synnergy may be abused by a creative player and that wouldnt be "fair". ..(unless of course the synnergy is defined by FFG in an obvious way as they try to build the decks for the rubes)

Broken cards will NEVER happen again, and, if the situation over at AGOT is an accurate blueprint, there is a giant nerf bat ready to wail away at any card that pops its head up above the level of "useable". As an aside, I fully believe that much of the core set will eventually have to be hit with the nerf bat, as cards like "triggerman" are nigh unstoppable.

Deck building? -> FFG declared war on this a while back and are desperately trying to remove it from the equation. Please find the old boards (if they exist) and read several of Nates missives.

>Please, someone give me some more info before I get scared away completely

Its actually very simple. If your a casual player who plays games every so-many weeks with a group of friends over beer, and your into HPL, this game is for you. If your into strategy and love an intellectual challenge...well just look at the top players in this game (all gone) and there you have your answer.

I feel you guys about leaving.. I've alrady been gone (as soon as I saw white borders). You know what is even more insulting, not one peep from anyone at FFG. At least in the old forums someone would stick up for their crappy decisions, now they don't say anything. This game had so much potential and now it's a joke. Whats worse is that FFG doesn't listen to the playtesters, whats the point of playtesting then?

I feel like I should say something, too... First thanks for the kind words Graham, it's definitely been a pleasure to know you and play with you. I miss the pre-LCG times when you were going nuts over your new creations and hyping the sick techs you had discovered

As for the card powerlevel, it's not what it used to be. Rotation is bound to happen sooner or later, and at that point it'll be time for decisions. Do you want to play the way FFG says or just ignore all that and play like before? In the end however, it's going to be very casual no matter what you choose to do. For competitive minded players that is a huge disappointment.

Casual players should be happy with the current state of the game. There's a steady flow of new cards coming so one can upgrade their decks. LCG is also very cheap, $30 a month at maximum. Buying a deck of UNO cards is a bit cheaper, though.

Bard said:

ignore ffg, it's as simple as that.

Pandafarmer said:

While I didn't say that, most of what you are saying is true. Still, despite any monetairy rewards, it's possible to have a competative scene, purely for the competition. It seems though, that even at worlds the competative players have a dualistic approach to what it means to play a competative tournament.

Pandafarmer said:

As a player, I would say: Don't get angry, get even! Find a way around this, and use your knowledge of the meta-game to your advantage. From a design standpoint though, such a warping effect that replaces the entire game system. Are you the same Pandafarmer as on MtgSalvation? If so, what did you think of the whole "affinity" thing during Mirrodin? I don't think the ritual banning or any new developments is "dumbing down" - To me, it's rather a redistribution of the skillset needed to play the game well.

Pandafarmer said:

It does change a couple of things, though. Let's say Masks of Nyarlathothep wasn't released as a CCG, but as an LCG. At some point, the "Brotherhood", "Masks and Avatars" asylum packs would have been brought out, and people would weep, and complain. But since it was released in CCG format, players would just glance past that, hope to crack open some packs for the couple of cards that did matter, and forget about it. Much changed in so little time though, so it's easy to lose perspective.

The_Rip-Off said:

I do understand your point here. Your deck is a technical marvel. And not just that; It requires great skill to play it. Where it breaks down though, is on the level of interaction. During Stahleck, how many times did you have a meaningful interaction going? The only one I've heard of is that Bard cancelled something... which didn't matter at all. I know how much time and effort you put in creating your deck and figuring out the best way to play it, but is it so bad to have some skill reassigned towards having some meaningful interaction?

The game is still going to be pretty awesome when games are won on turn 0, as long as there has been significant interaction and on-the-spot decision making. Your deck works so great, that whatever the opponent is playing is moot.

Even the a game like MtG doesn't allow you to get away with playing 4x the power nine these days. Does it mean it has "dumbed down?" I would argue that it has not, it just has added skills in metagaming and on-the-spot interaction and plays.

Pandafarmer said:

Yup. Never bring a knife to a gunfight. Then again, guns are kinda banned at a fencing dual. Not because guns don't require skill and preparation, but because, well, it's about fencing.

Pandafarmer said:

I can't see you ever buying the "Brotherhood AP" or the "Migo AP" or anything like that. So, I do think, on some level, it has coloured your judgement on the game, even though you agree to the AP concept.

Pandafarmer said:

And I'm very sorry to hear that. It was great to see your deck in action at Stahleck, allthough it showed how flawed the design of the whole of Eldritch was on a game design level. You have demonstrated to be the Oppenheimer of COC, which is a great achievement, but it doesn't make a thermonuclear war more strategic then a trenchwar or a guerrillia war.

It's a shame that you don't like the direction things are going right now. Some changes are needed though in order for the game to survive. All in all I don't mind if this year at Stahleck we'll have a 4x, ritual legal flight at the tourney, but too much focus on such a thing will only bleed the game to death at some point. That doesn't do a service to anyone.

Eldritch Edition did paint COCCCG in a corner, and it'll take some time for the paint to dry to get out of there. I do hope to see that happen and see you at the table somewhere when that happens.

Master of R'lyeh said:

My experiences with this are more positive than that.

I understand your point Rip more clearly, so thank you for clearing that up for me. The APs do seem to have a built in design flaw in that that cycles can be very non-creative from a deck building standpoint now, and as Marius said makes for what feels like a wasted set much like Masks or Avatars had they been done the same way. So versatility is key, and agreed on all points. I've been out of the game for too long and have yet to really get my hands dirty on that respect.

Also Marius, yeah I am Pandafarmer over at MTG Salvation and the main WOTC boards. I was around during affinity and that is exactly what Rainbow reminded me of at first. But the difference between Magic and COC is huge when you have a player base that includes Pro Players who are essentially paid (A LOT of money) to spend all day to play and break things wide open. If all of us had that ability in Cthulhu, this game would be far different on every level.

While I cannot speak, nor do I chose to speak for Nate (esp since I don't know how he's running things these days)... but I can say that the boys and gals over at FFG are VERY busy folks, and while playtesting has always been a sore spot on any game they release, CCGs are always a very difficult thing to work with because of versatility. In the experiences I've had on board game testing, the teams usually get a very small window to catch stuff and when you are analysing a game in a small group, the obvious mistakes are usually caught. I can point to things in any game I've playtested for FFG and say I had a hand in various mecahnics that were created to fix things. These are things the public NEVER SEE so they can't rightfully judge how good or bad some playtesting is. You can have the brightest players availible pounding out ideas, but all it takes is one person a million miles away to find a flaw and BOOM... all hell breaks loose because they aren't afraid to tell EVERYONE about it. Heck even WOTC makes these kinds of mistakes! *cough* Jitte *cough* I think we can give FFG some slack when a company that has a paid playtesting staff on board still misses things on the biggest trading card game in the world that seem VERY obvious to everyone out in the field.

As for the lack of support in the forums, I have not been on the inside in quite some time (2 years or so), but I can that posting on the boards has ALWAYS been frowned upon. It too easily can derail into chaos and someone could say something that would make the company liable. It's the same way with WOTC and MTG forums. You RARELY see a member of Magic R&D posting on the boards. They have "articles" to address issues, as do the FFG folks (wether or not they chose to use them productively however, is another thing).

Also, I'd like to point out that some of the above quotes in Marius's post credited to myself are actually from another's posting... just to avoid confusion