As an aside to the discussion, did anyone else note the Inevitable City reference?

Only exists in the Warhammer Online timeline (as far as I recall).

Home of the Raven Host and Tchar'zanek (Tzeentch's Champion).

Obviously, this innocuous reference means there's a setting shift going on to fall in line with the video game. Speculate and instill panic below.

Ok, so after the GenCon I've seen some and now my opinion is:

I"M GOING TO BUY IT ALL! That's for sure.

I'ts looking great. The Creatures G&V will have a lot of new stuff in it so it's a must buy for everybody. The Players G&V looks great - over 300 pages of info for players and GM (all in one book), oh and the Vaults will have some extra cards for the next player so we can take build up players team. The GM G&V are looking cool especialy when I hear that in the Vault will be some extra dice included (12 dice that is).

So this is going to make the end of the year very expensive but it's worth it. I can only hope that the Edge Of Night and the Signs Of Faith will be soon avaliable.

Darrett said:

Was this in Jay's answer about Slaanesh? I wouldn't read too much into it, he probably has played his fair share of WAR...I thought WAR was pretty much "dead" now?

Darrett said:

No, it appeared in the Tome of Corruption for v2, possibly elsewhere.

Stil non-sense to me...

1. IF i want to play whit bitz, is better to get the boxes

2. IF i want to play completely cardless/bitzless, i can get guides...and then WHY should I get vaults too??

3. IF i want a new player in, is better to get adventurers box...WHY should I get a vault that dont have carrers sheets in??

4. IF i want expanded rules on magic and faith, is better to get the boxes...WHY should i get a vault that doesnt have carrer sheets, nor the NPC actions??! ESPECIALLY FOR JUST 10$ LESS?????!!! c'mon...

And above else...what the heck is that bestiary thing??!

5 IF i want new monsters, i must get a guide + a vault, for the price of 70$??! i hope is the biggest expansion ever made, otherwise we should ask better for a cheaper BOX in the 50$ price-tag as they've done for winds of magic or signs of faith...not counting the risk that one product could get sold-out before the other, potentially leaving GM whit a mutilated product on his shelf...

In the end, until i see the actual content-summary for the vaults, i cant see how they can be useful somehow...

Ghiacciolo said:

Agreed.

Ghiacciolo said:

I don't think you have to, thats the point. It seems like the guides are for those people that want to play without all the chits, so for cardless play you would not need the vaults, is my understanding.

Ghiacciolo said:

I don't think it is better to get the Adventurer's box for a new player. The vault has a whole stack of action cards in over and above what is in the adventurer's toolkit; the vault provides all cards for the player regardless of career (with the exception of the career cards it seems). You don't really need the career cards in play though, they are primarily used for levelling up. They do have slots on but a slight amendment to the character sheet solves that problem; we don't have career cards on the table during play because they just take up room.

Ghiacciolo said:

Yes, i think it is better to get the boxes BUT it all depends on your outlook, if you are a single player looking to get a foot hold into an existing group, it may be prudent to buy the players guide (and maybe the vault).. I wouldn't reccomend that a player buy the SoF/WoM box just to get into a game.

Ghiacciolo said:

As Dvang has said in other posts, you can get by with buying either of the Creature products and getting the new creature info. I agree that perhaps if this was done as an "old style" relase (like SoF or WoM) then it might have worked out slightly cheaper for the same overall NEW info, but then that product would not have included a book containing all existing monsters, which personally, i can find a use for, so i am 80% content with the way this product has gone.

Ghiacciolo said:

I think I will do the same, and for you they may well not be useful. I can see now though that the products are aimed at getting new people into the game rather than being a neccessary buy for people already playing the game (especially for GM's who likely already have all existing material). The players guide/vaults could have a place in an existing group, espicially if they want to add a player or two, which is fine.

I think some of the initial concerns were around that these products had to be bought by existing groups to keep up to date with the latest rules, while effectively re-buying material that they already owned. It is now pretty obvious that this is not the case, with the slight exception of the Creature series, which does contain information I already own but I need to buy it for the new creatures, but I am happy to do that.

I think the concerns that this would see the end of the chit based system or a serious U-turn in the WFRP V3 methodolgy and design that Jay and Dan have worked so hard to produce is also now not the case.

I think the message form FFG is (although initially it may have been somewhat garbled) that these new products are just giving you different methods of getting the relevant info to play the type of WFRP V3 game you want to play. If you want to be a non chit based player, there is a product for you. If you want to add extra players into your chit based group, there is a product for you, and if you have supported this game from the beginning and have all exisintg material then there is no need to worry because numerous great new products are coming out over the next year; I myself can't wait to get my hands on witch's song and see if they have managed to integrate lesser magics and hedge wizardry into the setting in a better way than 2nd ed did, and my money reckons Jay and Dan have done it brilliantly and with innovation and that it melds beautifully into the existing product, rather than an obvious add on (which unfortunately is how i felt about 2nd ed hedge wizardy to a certain extent)

macd21 said:

It goes as far back as Realm of Chaos; Slaves to Darkness. It (and Bastion Stair which is also featured in Warhammer Online) were section lead ins accompanied by a full page of Ian Miller artwork.

pumpkin said:

Some, but not many. Wasn't there a 7-page errata sheet for the Core Set a few weeks after release? And even after that, a lot of people still struggle with the amazingly simple rules of WFRP. Perhaps I've been spoiled by the (amazingly good) proofreading and editing of Steve Jackson Games (I used to be a GURPS fan before I'd gotten tired of the amazing complexity of the system), but I'm not aware of any major RPG publishers whose main rulebook is as badly organized as the WFRP Core Set rulebook. And if you look at their boardgames, it's clear that FFG really isn't very good at writing clear and concise rulebooks.

I'm glad they're fixing it, because the system of WFRP is very very promising, and some of the ideas in it are amazing. It deserves a better execution than it got first time around.

mcv said:

There is an errata sheet, but not much of that is actually things in the book that are wrong, more clarifications to make things 100% clear for those that need them. I also don't have any real issues with the core rulebook. I think a lot of people's problems with it stem from the fact they expect it to be a full rule book, whereas the rules for the system are spread across the books and the cards.

I also take the time to read rule books and the like several times until I am completely familiar with the rule set I am playing with, so perhaps I am different to the norm in that sense, perhaps peoples problems with the rule set is because they expect to fully understand it after a single read through, I'm not sure?

I still think it compares favourably to the omissions and errors in my DH rulebook, and some of the 2nd ed books too, that had some terrible formatting and editing, in places (not so much the rule book in that case, just some of the subsequent releases).

pumpkin said:

Tables with the stuff on cards would be nice, but I can live without them. My real problem with the rulebook is that it takes something really simple and spreads it out over several chapters, making it appear very complex. I think all the actual rules could easily fit in a single chapter, but instead it drags on and on and on, with paragraph after paragraph with no real content, only hinting that the content I'm looking for will come later. And it will, hidden deep in some other paragraph.

There's no structure to the way the rules are presented. It's a very sloppy first draft. Some rules are repeated all over the place, others (that are no less important) are really hard to find, or only vaguely hinted at. Some aspects of the rules start with some really cool ideas, and then fail to follow through with their execution. The few times when there is some structure, the list of what you can do with a maneuver, for example, it raises more questions than it answers. (A maneuver for a skill roll? Any skill roll in the middle of combat? Really?)

In order to fix it, they shouldn't simply add some tables and clarifications, they need to throw all the chapters on task resolution and combat out, and reqrite them completely. Preferably in a single chapter, because the rules really are that simple, if only you write them down clearly.

pumpkin said:

The system is simple enough that it should be understandable in a single read-through, I think. Mostly it needs to be more concise, rather than having paragraphs of meaningless prose that goes on and on and on. The problem isn't that the rules are too hard, the problem is that it's unnecessarily hard. The system is simple, and you can save a lot of paper by presenting it in a more concise and simple manner.

It reads like the author was paid by the word, and that's a really bad way to reward sloppy writing.

I keep wondering about that too. A lot of people seem to feel that the core rulebook badly written but personally, I have no problems with it at all. It was actually clearer to me than a lot of other RPG books I've read.

What I did notice was that I had a hard time explaining basic character creation to my players. They thought it was very complicated. I know it isn't very complicated at all so I still wonder what happened there. Maybe my method of understanding and explanation is similar to the rulebook's

Because of all the hub bub surrounding the release of the hard back books, I've been having some seller's remorse over the trade-in I did a while back where I got rid of all my WFRP3 stuff.

Over the weekend, I popped into the local game store where I had traded it in and picked up all of the used stuff I had gotten rid of, pretty much for the trade price I had initially gotten for it. So overall it was a wash. It's weird that my stuff was still there because I'd gotten rid of it over a month ago. In fact, my used stuff was the only WFRP3 product they had outside of the new magic supplement.

Funny enough, the store was trying to sell the products as if they were new. The non-core box products were re-shrink wrapped. I opened them up at the register and pointed out the plastic baggies holding the components in the boxes, but associate behind the counter was almost beligerent that I would call him a liar for stating the boxes were new. Then his manager stopped by and clarified they were used, to which the clerk said, "oh, these must have been our demo set." No apology or anything. I did get them to lower the price down to the used value though.

I suppose they have a right to price up used gaming stuff however much they want, but it galled me they were trying to pass it off as new.

Anyhow, long story short, I have all my original materials back and also picked up The Winds of Magic supplement.

Personally, I'm really looking forward to seeing what comes in the hardback books, even though I have no desire, or need, it seems to get the vaults for anything but the bestiary.

Welcome back to the fold, LeBlanc.

One of us! One of us! One of us!

Doc, the Weasel said:

I knew there was a reason I was lurking about for so long.

Thanks Doc!

Glad to hear you're going to give it another go, LeBlanc!

LeBlanc13 said:

Why did you sell in the first place? Was it because of the announcement of the hardbacks, or simply because you didn't like the system?

UPDATED 8/13/10

(I also added this to the original post) A few additional comments and clarifications on the new format, addressing some information that was not clear in my Small But Vicious Seminar video.

Q: How many players are supported by the Player Vault?

A: The Player Vault includes the player-focused components from the popular WFRP Core Set this includes three sets of basic actions, stance pieces, tracking tokens, as well as the standups, sheets, and ability cards for all 30 original careers, and the corresponding actions.

Q: What content from Winds of Magic and Signs of Faith appear in the Player Guide and Game Master Guide?

A: The new careers, actions, and player-focused content from these products (as well as the Adventurer's Toolkit) is re-printed for convenient lookup in the Player Guide. The rules for corruption and mutation (first found in Winds of Magic) and disease (from Signs of Faith) are in the Game Master's Guide. The background information, creature flavour and background, adventure, and other content is not duplicated in either Guide.

Also, while the careers, talents, and other components from Winds of Magic and Signs of Faith are listed in charts and layout in the Player Guide, these components are not part of the Player Vault those cards, sheets, and punchboard are available in Winds of Magic and Signs of Faith.

Q: What "new material" is there in the Player Guide?

A: There are no new rules or new content, per se. Rather, the Player Guide features updated organization, streamlined rules, more sidebars and diagrams, more examples of play, and a robust index. The goal is to make the rules easier to read and find, and the game easier to play. The Player Guide also addresses some common questions and integrates updates from the FAQ and Errata.

ynnen said:

And the background info from the core? Is that included in the Guides?

BTW thanks for giving us more info. It made a few things clear.

heptat said:

It was the fact that I wasn't able to talk anyone in my gaming area into trying the darned game. I'm hoping with the advent of the hardbacks that it will allow me to convince a few people to break off from WFRP2 long enough to give the game a try. Right now, my game store has 3 ongoing WFRP2 games that have been going on for quite some time. No one seems interested in switching.

Our gaming area really hasn't been receptive to this game overall. We're actually located in big college town so there is a metric TON of gaming going on. There are 4 to 5 thriving game stores in the area that are doing pretty well despite the recession. Most of the market is taken up with D&D4, Pathfinder and Dark Heresy. Of the roughly 30 or so gamers I know and regularly speak with, I'm the only one that purchased WFRP3, although the store has sold other boxes.

When I demo'd the components at my local shop, most looked at it, asked me a few questions about the mechanics and said "looks like a great intro game for kids to get into the RPG hobby." While I disagreed with them that this is a kids game, I couldn't convince anyone to give it a chance.

I traded the game in over a month or so ago. I only recently decided to pick it up again after hearing about the hardbacks, since those may bring in the naysayers in my area that do like WFRP2 and WFB. Luckily, the popularity is so low for it, my trade-ins were still sitting on the shelf of the game store when I went back in.

It's kind of sad because when I got up to the counter, the sales person asked me why I wanted to pick up WFRP3. He stated that most were still sticking with 2nd edition. I informed him that while I had 2nd Edition, I still wanted the materials for 3rd. He shrugged at me and said "whatever".

what i'm hoping is that the hardcover guides will be placed in the chain retailers like borders and barnes and noble and be an impulse buy for non-believers. the massive box is just not an impulse purchase.

i haven't decided if i am going to re-purchase everything i already own in a new format, but if the improvements are significant enough I might not be able to help myself. everybody wins with this.

LeBlanc13 said:

Sounds like your FLGS is not so F (same with the two where I live). It's pretty sad you can't find anyone to play with in a place that has so many gamers! A lot of misconceptions about WFRPv3 out there. I too was one of those who dismissed it when it was first released, but I've given it a go, and more, and I'm the first to admit that I was wrong – this was a version worth doing. Hope you can find a group soon!

Me too.

Actually, I just watched the Gen Con video with Jay Little and I'm getting VERY excited about the release of the hard cover books. I think this may go a long way to getting my friends to give this game a try.

I assume the new monster stat cards aren't in Edge of Night, just as they aren't in Signs of Faith.

Will the Creature Vault include cards for any of the new critters in EoN (assuming there are some)? I know Jay mentioned they are bringing forward monsters from The Gathering Storm (and I think he mentioned Winds of Magic and Signs of Faith too) in the vault, but I wonder if EoN was included? I think it makes sense, but I wonder if the timing was right or if anything was overlooked. I'll get EoN anyways because I really like the adventures published so far, but I'm curious.

ynnen said:

Yes! For this, you deserve my everlasting loyalty (or at least for another year or so). This is exactly what I needed. (Okay, so I don't need a duplicate set of standups. I understand why they're in there, so I don't mind.)

ynnen said:

How thorough are the updating of organization and streamlining of rules? From your description, it sounds more thorough than simply: the same book + errata, an index and some clarifications, which is good. I think the chapters that explain the basics of the system (skill usage, maneuvers and actions) need to be completely rewritten and reordered, preferably all those basics (including stricter definitions of what you can accomplish with actions and what you can accomplish with maneuvers) in a single chapter, and then expanding on it in later chapters for combat and social combat.

From the looks of it, it looks like I'm going to buy both the Player's Vault and the Player's Guide, despite already owning the Core Set. Good job.

Welcome back LeBlanc. Regarding play: Gitz and I are going to test a MAPTOOL online tabletop version of WFRP3. There's always that

jh