31 minutes ago, Sturn said:

Am I the only one that is completely lost regarding, WW's, revolving doors, and several names I've never heard of?

Are you referring to the Wonder Woman, Batman, and Superman references in the post preceding yours?

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

Revolving door, which she had trouble using because she apparently couldn't discern that holding her sword horizontally would make it too wide for her to pass. Part of why I remember it so well is that's the point that I'd had enough and turned it off.

Okay, I can't really see the issue here. She does okay for somebody from an ancient civilisation who is completely unfamiliar with the concept of a revolving door. I think you're misremembering some bits.

Then again, the movie was written by Allan Heinberg, who had her do similarly inane things in the comics he wrote, really stressing the fish out of water element of Wonder Woman way beyond breaking point.

33 minutes ago, Sturn said:

Am I the only one that is completely lost regarding, WW's, revolving doors, and several names I've never heard of?

Rogue One will be directed by Patty Jenkins. I loved her previous work (primarily Wonder Woman), Nytwyng did not.

Wonder Woman was my favorite of the recent DC movies, though that’s not saying much; I haven’t enjoyed any of the others except Aquaman (which was just dumb fun to me). Wonder Woman was really good though and is another reason to be optimistic about the film.

I have zero problems with the door scene. I’ve seen real people struggle in similar ways with revolving doors that didn’t come from a remote magical Iron Age island. It seems like criticizing it is trying to find a reason to hate the film.

1 hour ago, micheldebruyn said:

Okay, I can't really see the issue here. She does okay for somebody from an ancient civilisation who is completely unfamiliar with the concept of a revolving door. I think you're misremembering some bits.

29 minutes ago, atama2 said:

have zero problems with the door scene. I’ve seen real people struggle in similar ways with revolving doors that didn’t come from a remote magical Iron Age island. It seems like criticizing it is trying to find a reason to hate the film.

I was admittedly predisposed to dislike the movie, given my reaction to previous entries in the franchise as well as the “hack-and-slash” approach to the character. A part of my problem with the scene stems from not even trying to watch it until it was on cable, so for months I heard little but what a positive, empowering portrayal of a powerful woman that it provided. If she’d looked at the revolving door just like a design she hadn’t seen...eh. Instead, though, because it was a design she hadn’t seen, she apparently lost the ability to judge that her sword held a particular way wouldn’t fit (and now, upon seeing the scene again in the clip above, that watching others use it still left her confused on how it worked). To me, it was at odds with everything I’d heard about the movie’s portrayal of the character, and just plain reached a saturation point that confirmed the movie just wasn’t for me.

Others liked it. A lot of others. I’m glad for (and almost envious of) them. More power to them.

Bringing it back full circle, it’s my only exposure to Jenkins’ work, and - based upon my reaction to it - is likely to be my only exposure to it until December 2023. I’m crossing my fingers that my reaction was to the material, not her direction.

The "sword and shield" version of Wonder Woman is a bit jarring to me too, though I'm not a huge fan of her in other media anyway (I don't dislike the character, I just don't find it interesting). I do think it fits in with the "Ancient Greek Warrior Woman" thing and warmed up to it over time.

4 minutes ago, atama2 said:

The "sword and shield" version of Wonder Woman is a bit jarring to me too, though I'm not a huge fan of her in other media anyway (I don't dislike the character, I just don't find it interesting). I do think it fits in with the "Ancient Greek Warrior Woman" thing and warmed up to it over time.

It can certainly fit. Once armor and additional weapons were added in the 1986 reboot, they were largely ceremonial for Diana, and when (sparingly) used, were used to demonstrate, “Oh, this is a big deal!” I think it was around the time the “golden eagle” armor was introduced in Kingdom Come that the armor and weapons started being used more commonly. Then once she snapped Max Lord’s neck, the character suddenly became a cold-blooded killer as a matter of course. I’ve fallen far out of the habit of following her book. Rather than warming to it, it’s turned me off of the character. But then, as noted earlier, DC currently seems bound and determined to make the grim ‘n gritty phase of the 90s look like the Super Friends.

1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

But then, as noted earlier, DC currently seems bound and determined to make the grim ‘n gritty phase of the 90s look like the Super Friends.

There's a reason why Deadpool in the second film remarked to Cable, "SO DARK! You sure you're not from the DC Universe?"

I think they're trying too hard most of the time.

9 hours ago, Sturn said:

Am I the only one that is completely lost regarding, WW's, revolving doors, and several names I've never heard of?

its worse than that for me. I just dont care because the DCU has been a poorly written mess. They didnt take any of the lessons from the early MCU.

4 hours ago, Daeglan said:

its worse than that for me. I just dont care because the DCU has been a poorly written mess. They didnt take any of the lessons from the early MCU.

Even worse...they were so intent on showing they were Notmarvel, that they chose to actively ignore what made DC’s characters and setting so unique and enduring.

6 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Even worse...they were so intent on showing they were Notmarvel, that they chose to actively ignore what made DC’s characters and setting so unique and enduring.

Exactly. They were throwing everything at the wall to see what would stick. like they dont know what makes DC great. And you need to make great solo movies first. Not just expet to leap right into Justice league.

41 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Exactly. They were throwing everything at the wall to see what would stick. like they dont know what makes DC great. And you need to make great solo movies first. Not just expet to leap right into Justice league.

I think their main problem is that they hit it really big with Nolan's Batman trilogy, while all their lighter efforts, like Green Lantern, were disappointments, so they figured, let's just stick to what seems to work.

Of course hiring a guy who doesn't believe in heroes or altruism to do a Superman movie and then promote him to running the DCEU were spectacular misjudgements.

21 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Exactly. They were throwing everything at the wall to see what would stick. like they dont know what makes DC great. And you need to make great solo movies first. Not just expet to leap right into Justice league.

Oh, you can jump straight to Justice League...if your team is all A-list. If, like Marvel, most of your team is B or C list, it helps to get the audience invested. But, the only solo (or semi-solo) movies WB did before JL were...the A-listers that people already know (despite being twisted and contorted beyond recognition).

27 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Oh, you can jump straight to Justice League...if your team is all A-list. If, like Marvel, most of your team is B or C list, it helps to get the audience invested. But, the only solo (or semi-solo) movies WB did before JL were...the A-listers that people already know (despite being twisted and contorted beyond recognition).

No you cant because most people know the characters well enough.

12 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No you cant because most people know the characters well enough.

Sure you can. (I'm assuming you meant "don't know".)

Ensemble movies get made all the time without special introduction movies for various cast members. The first X-Men movie. Ocean's 11, Lord Of The Rings,

It's like saying they couldn't have made Rogue One without first making a Jynn Erso film, a Cassian & K2SO film, and a Chirrut & Baze film.

Or look at the old Justice League cartoon: the first three episodes are essentially a complete 90 minute Justice League movie with only Superman and Batman being pre-existing characters in that universe. And, you know, if you think those two need an introduction for a mainstream audience...

26 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No you cant because most people know the characters well enough.

That's...exactly why you can (resisting Patented Hobo Images Emphasis) if the characters are A-listers...if they're Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, or equivalent. Most people know them well enough to dive straight into teaming them up*. With the possible exceptions of Hulk and Captain America, the Marvel characters that made up the initial Avengers roster were B-listers, at best (because Marvel's marquee characters were licensed to other studios). But, half of the League weren't A-listers (a point that may have gotten buried or omitted in my earlier post).

*One of the other problems, though, is that what the general audience knows about those A-listers was tossed out the window in the franchise's current iteration.

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

That's...exactly why you can (resisting Patented Hobo Images Emphasis) if the characters are A-listers...if they're Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, or equivalent. Most people know them well enough to dive straight into teaming them up*. With the possible exceptions of Hulk and Captain America, the Marvel characters that made up the initial Avengers roster were B-listers, at best (because Marvel's marquee characters were licensed to other studios). But, half of the League weren't A-listers (a point that may have gotten buried or omitted in my earlier post).

*One of the other problems, though, is that what the general audience knows about those A-listers was tossed out the window in the franchise's current iteration.

You don't think that Iron Man is an A-lister?!?

12 minutes ago, Bellona said:

You don't think that Iron Man is an A-lister?!?

He is now, thanks to the movies.

Prior to 2008, not so much.

Just now, Nytwyng said:

He is now, thanks to the movies.

In 2008, not so much.

I disagree.

... But why are we talking about Marvel and DC movies on a Rogue Squadron thread?

Let's drop the non-Rogue Squadron movie comments and focus on the thread's actual topic.

I'm looking forward to this movie. One thing that I would love to know as soon as possible is when it's set. Pre-Hoth, pre-Endor, post-Endor, when, when, when?!?

5 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

He is now, thanks to the movies.

Prior to 2008, not so much.

Yeah I almost kicked in to say that Iron Man should be included too, but no, outside of comic fans not so much.

I’d argue Marvel’s mainstream successes before the MCU were mostly Cap and Hulk (as said), Spider-Man (of course) and maybe Wolverine since the 80s/early 90s.

2 minutes ago, Bellona said:

Pre-Hoth, pre-Endor, post-Endor, when, when, when?!?

I’m thinking after Hoth, since during that battle Luke was Rogue Leader.

17 minutes ago, Bellona said:

I disagree.

You're welcome to. But, even in comics, he wasn't one of Marvel's top characters prior to the movie's success.

17 minutes ago, Bellona said:

... But why are we talking about Marvel and DC movies on a Rogue Squadron thread?

Because Rogue Squadron 's director has now directed two DC movies (one of which will see release in 2 weeks), and was originally scheduled to be the director of a Marvel movie, so her existing body of work can be used to determine whether or not one might enjoy Rogue Squadron? And the larger subject of the circumstances of the franchise(s) she's worked in can inform the discussion of whether the reaction to those works was due more to their overall content or the director's work more specifically.

ETA: Plus...it's three years away. All we know about it is the director. Not much to discuss about the movie itself just yet.

10 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

...

Because Rogue Squadron 's director has now directed two DC movies (one of which will see release in 2 weeks), and was originally scheduled to be the director of a Marvel movie, so her existing body of work can be used to determine whether or not one might enjoy Rogue Squadron? And the larger subject of the circumstances of the franchise(s) she's worked in can inform the discussion of whether the reaction to those works was due more to their overall content or the director's work more specifically.

ETA: Plus...it's three years away. All we know about it is the director. Not much to discuss about the movie itself just yet.

I think that you missed my point (that the discussion was veering off-topic when it got as far as discussing the pros/cons of Marvel movies vs. DC movies).

I thought I'd seen somewhere it was post-Endor, which makes me a little sad, so far I've been able to have the old novels as my head canon without much contradiction from Disney.

5 minutes ago, Bellona said:

I think that you missed my point (that the discussion was veering off-topic when it got as far as discussing the pros/cons of Marvel movies vs. DC movies).

And I think you missed my point that the corporate environments they were made in, including how those corporations shaped production of their properties has the potential to provide insight into how similar forces could shape this one given a director who's worked in those environments.

For example:

A complaint about the "Disney era" Star Wars franchise has been the lack of "a plan." Many leveling this complaint point to the MCU as the "proper" way to construct a franchise, by having "a plan." The DC franchise is similarly accused of lacking "a plan." Jenkins left Thor: The Dark World early on, claiming the level of Marvel Studios imposition of "the plan." (This even led to Natalie Portman openly complaining about Jenkins' departure, and choosing not to participate in what would become Thor: Ragnarok .) Another complaint leveled at "Disney-era" Star Wars is that the productions allegedly ignore established characterization. This is a complaint also leveled against the DC franchise. Jenkins' biggest commercial success to date is from a franchise said to have no "plan," and which ignores long-established characterization. Meanwhile, a fan base that apparently demands "a plan" and adherence to established characterization is thrilled that she'll be directing the next feature in a franchise they claim should include these elements.