2 hours ago, Dwing said:

Its just like transponder codes is designe to ruin any fun for people who want to fly their new eta-2. Sure you don't want to waste a force on a purple tl before I Jam you?

Yes, I'm sure, because I'm not a fool and have therefore had my LAAT or a random Torrent or V-wing lock you already to waste your upgrade's only charge.

3 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Yes, I'm sure, because I'm not a fool and have therefore had my LAAT or a random Torrent or V-wing lock you already to waste your upgrade's only charge.

Posters keeps saying this, but most of the time if you put the codes on a higher initiative ship like Dengar you’ll take the first lock action on the initial approach and jam the ship you are about to shoot.

it's no big deal in a game with higher ship counts. easy to counter by any thoughtful player, if you let it work on you you deserve it, nothing to see here, move along.

5 hours ago, Old Sarge said:

Posters keeps saying this, but most of the time if you put the codes on a higher initiative ship like Dengar you’ll take the first lock action on the initial approach and jam the ship you are about to shoot.

But the counterplay to this is to take lock action on the first turn with all of your ships on anything. It is a standard defense against jam.

On 12/4/2020 at 4:54 AM, Boreas Mun said:

2 hours ago, Boreas Mun said:

But the counterplay to this is to take lock action on the first turn with all of your ships on anything. It is a standard defense against jam.

Er, what?

Walk me through that, because I'm not getting something here.

We're talking about putting FTC on Dengar, who at I6 moves last (for the sake of argument, lets assume no I6s on the other team).

This is the first engagement, and ships are moving into range. Dengar is out of range 3 of any enemy ship before he moves, so he can't lock them but they can't lock him. Dengar moves. He's now in range 3 of an enemy ship and locks it, which also gives it a jam token via FTC.

You're saying the defence against that is to have every ship on the other team take a lock action before Dengar moves? So that must be a lock on something other than Dengar, I'm presuming that includes a rock if there are no other enemy ships in range (maybe Dengar is only flying with Fenn and/or Scum Han).

But when Dengar jams a ship isn't he just.... going to remove that lock?

If your ship locked a rock, and Dengar's jam token removes that lock then yeah Dengar hasn't really gained anything (as in, he hasn't gained the benefit of removing a lock from himself or a teammate) but at the same time, that ship has still wasted its action. The net result is the exact same as if it had taken a focus action then had the token jammed away.

And if every ship in the list is doing it, that's even worse. Because every ship has wasted the action locking a rock when they could have all just focused. The jam token will only remove one green token or break one lock from one ship.

And if they're not locking rocks, but locking ships other than Dengar, then the jam token still removes a lock on a ship and one of Dengar's buddies has one fewer attacking dice mod against them to worry about.

Wouldn't having everyone find a way to use barrel roll, boost or their own jam action be a better defence against jam? That way you're still getting the benefit of an action, but a jam token won't affect you.

42 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

If your ship locked a rock, and Dengar's jam token removes that lock then yeah Dengar hasn't really gained anything (as in, he hasn't gained the benefit of removing a lock from himself or a teammate) but at the same time, that ship has still wasted its action. The net result is the exact same as if it had taken a focus action then had the token jammed away.

And if every ship in the list is doing it, that's even worse. Because every ship has wasted the action locking a rock when they could have all just focused. The jam token will only remove one green token or break one lock from one ship.

The idea is that you have everyone lock an object on turn one, when you normally would just be focusing. Then by the time they engage, they take the focus action, so they have the focus and a lock on the rock.

This doesn't work anymore as the person that applies the jam chooses whether a green token is removed or a lock is broken. It used to work in earlier days of 2nd edition when the receiver of the jam chose. It's still good practice to do when your opponent has jamming potential.

4 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

The idea is that you have everyone lock an object on turn one, when you normally would just be focusing. Then by the time they engage, they take the focus action, so they have the focus and a lock on the rock.

This doesn't work anymore as the person that applies the jam chooses whether a green token is removed or a lock is broken. It used to work in earlier days of 2nd edition when the receiver of the jam chose. It's still good practice to do when your opponent has jamming potential.

Riiiiiiiight. First turn of the game, not first turn of engagement. My fault for mentally adding that word in.

But yeah, still doesn't work as you just let them keep the useless lock.

While I'm posting in the thread, just want to add that I really like FTC. It's a perfect example of what Illicits should be about. It can be strong. But most of the time it's just single use jank. And even 'strong' here isn't all that impressive. Jam needs all the help it can get, and one free long range jam action that you might not even get to pick the timing of seems fine to me. It's not like there are ton of things that will let you exploit it beyond the simple lack of mods thing. I really doubt we'll see Juke FTC Aggressors, for example.

The really interesting question is whether FTC is any good with Jabba.

You could potentially use it to deny enemy ordnance for enough rounds that they never get those shots off. Well, for one enemy ship anyway.

Jank? Jank!

Jabba Dabba Jam!

Torani Kulda (48)
Plasma Torpedoes (7)
False Transponder Codes (2)

Ship total: 57 Half Points: 29 Threshold: 5

Han Solo (Scum) (48)
Trick Shot (4)
Jabba the Hutt (6)
Greedo (1)
False Transponder Codes (2)
Lando's Millennium Falcon (3)

Ship total: 64 Half Points: 32 Threshold: 6

Captain Jostero (41)
False Transponder Codes (2)
Deadman's Switch (2)

Ship total: 45 Half Points: 23 Threshold: 3

Unkar Plutt (29)
Afterburners (4)

Ship total: 33 Half Points: 17 Threshold: 3


Total: 199

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

The idea is that you have everyone lock an object on turn one, when you normally would just be focusing. Then by the time they engage, they take the focus action, so they have the focus and a lock on the rock.

This doesn't work anymore as the person that applies the jam chooses whether a green token is removed or a lock is broken. It used to work in earlier days of 2nd edition when the receiver of the jam chose. It's still good practice to do when your opponent has jamming potential.

Yeah, right, because Dengar locks last.

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

The idea is that you have everyone lock an object on turn one, when you normally would just be focusing. Then by the time they engage, they take the focus action, so they have the focus and a lock on the rock.

This doesn't work anymore as the person that applies the jam chooses whether a green token is removed or a lock is broken. It used to work in earlier days of 2nd edition when the receiver of the jam chose. It's still good practice to do when your opponent has jamming potential.

Wasn't it always that the Jammer chose?

I recall there was some confusion over whether Jammer chooses which lock or which green Token vs the Jammer only chose "Lock" or "Green Token (then the Defender chooses which green Token)" . That was from a misreading of the rules, and some podcasters popularized the mistake really fast. It was never impossible to read it as "Jammer picks the thing to remove" and the rules never changed.

30 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Wasn't it always that the Jammer chose?

I recall there was some confusion over whether Jammer chooses which lock or which green Token vs the Jammer only chose "Lock" or "Green Token (then the Defender chooses which green Token)" . That was from a misreading of the rules, and some podcasters popularized the mistake really fast. It was never impossible to read it as "Jammer picks the thing to remove" and the rules never changed.

I think at launch it was completely ambiguous, then it moved to Jammer chooses lock or green token but who chose the green token was ambiguous still. Then it was finally revised to Jammer chooses all the time.

2 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

The idea is that you have everyone lock an object on turn one, when you normally would just be focusing. Then by the time they engage, they take the focus action, so they have the focus and a lock on the rock.

This doesn't work anymore as the person that applies the jam chooses whether a green token is removed or a lock is broken. It used to work in earlier days of 2nd edition when the receiver of the jam chose. It's still good practice to do when your opponent has jamming potential.

Still works against low I locks, which is stupid.

19 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I think at launch it was completely ambiguous, then it moved to Jammer chooses lock or green token but who chose the green token was ambiguous still. Then it was finally revised to Jammer chooses all the time.

I don't have the first 2e rules reference on my computer, but the Jam rule is unchanged since the version before 1.0.2 (it wasn't updated in that version) and 1.3.0. I think folks just made a mistake in grammar interpretation.

7 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

I think at launch it was completely ambiguous, then it moved to Jammer chooses lock or green token but who chose the green token was ambiguous still. Then it was finally revised to Jammer chooses all the time.

I remember. None of our group thought it was clear. But it became popular to play it the safer, friendlier way. Then FFG said it's fine, ****** that stuff and I was pleased.

This is what I did with JabbaCodes Han, because I couldn't stop myself.

Lancer-class Pursuit Craft - •Asajj Ventress - 91 •Asajj Ventress - Force of Her Own (68) •Zam Wesell (4) Contraband Cybernetics (3) Rigged Cargo Chute (4) Electronic Baffle (2) • Shadow Caster (1) Hate (9)

Escape Craft - •Outer Rim Pioneer - 29 •Outer Rim Pioneer - Skillful Outlaw (28) Marg Sabl Closure (1)

Customized YT-1300 Light Freighter - •Han Solo - 80 •Han Solo - The Corellian Kid (48) Trick Shot (4) Cluster Missiles (4) •Jabba the Hutt (6) False Transponder Codes (2) Engine Upgrade (7) •Lando’s Millennium Falcon (3) Suppressive Gunner (6)

Total: 200

3x 2 die guns. Probably fine.

Can you even Marg Sabl on an undock?

Yeah. I'm really struggling to understand how False Transponder Codes are in any way bad for the game...

like.... a one time jam? that your opponent could force you to use and waste? I really struggle to see how this is worth more than 2 points....

Not bad for the game. At all.

"Move along, move along." It's one time use with counter-play. I don't see how this is worse for the game than...contraband?

Quote

Experimental Scanners: You can acquire locks beyond range 3. You cannot acquire locks at range 1.

Rise of the E-Wings anyone?

23 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Can you even Marg Sabl on an undock?

Yes. Undocking is Deploy.

Deploy is actually one of the most useful variants of Margl Sable Closure.

So easy to achieve, no negatives from an obstacle.

Perfect for YT13, VCX, YV666.

Many forget that you can do dock normal Z95s onto the YV, Marg Bossk Z95 docked starts with Target Lock on deploy, strains you and can punch hard.

Also brutal in Epic with Marg fighters starting from a Gozanti or Liberator CR90.

If it not were for Covid, I would try this stupid jank at the local club:

Serissu (40)
XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (2)
Ship total: 42 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 2

Moralo Eval (66)
Zam Wesell (4)
Hondo Ohnaka (6)
Hound's Tooth (1)
Ship total: 77 Half Points: 39 Threshold: 6

Bossk (Z-95 Headhunter) (28)
Marg Sabl Closure (1)
Cluster Missiles (4)
Ship total: 33 Half Points: 17 Threshold: 2

Talonbane Cobra (48)
Ship total: 48 Half Points: 24 Threshold: 3

Total: 200

49 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Many forget that you can do dock normal Z95s onto the YV, Marg Bossk Z95 docked starts with Target Lock on deploy, strains you and can punch hard.

Procket Bossk aboard Latts is a thing I've had floating around the builder. Marg Sabl for -2ag on double mod Prockets is a stretch, but still, it's a thing.

On 12/3/2020 at 6:16 PM, Stay OT Leader said:

Why would you take a TL action on the ship that can equip Predator or run alongside a LAAT?

Predator yes, but the ETA doesn't play well with the LAAT as it easily out flies the support area of the ugly slug.

On 12/4/2020 at 12:03 AM, Cloaker said:

it's no big deal in a game with higher ship counts. easy to counter by any thoughtful player, if you let it work on you you deserve it, nothing to see here, move along.

Funny I use to say something similar about harpoon missiles. Though I agree. FTC is just fine. Though an R3, Cluster, FTC, Torani looks fun.

9 minutes ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Predator yes, but the ETA doesn't play well with the LAAT as it easily out flies the support area of the ugly slug.

Funny I use to say something similar about harpoon missiles. Though I agree. FTC is just fine. Though an R3, Cluster, FTC, Torani looks fun.

What do you mean the Actis out flies the support area? The support area is shooting at a target that is within the LAAT's firing arc... Unless you're talking about like Hawk?

1 hour ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Predator yes, but the ETA doesn't play well with the LAAT as it easily out flies the support area of the ugly slug.

Funny I use to say something similar about harpoon missiles. Though I agree. FTC is just fine. Though an R3, Cluster, FTC, Torani looks fun.

That sounds like a problem that exists between templates and chair.

1 hour ago, SavouryRain said:

What do you mean the Actis out flies the support area? The support area is shooting at a target that is within the LAAT's firing arc... Unless you're talking about like Hawk?

Any of the LAATs really. The Actis wants to go fast and arc dodge. Get behind things and autoblast it back to the stone age. The LAAT really can't keep up with it and keep a mutual target in arc at the same time to make fire convergence work reliably.

1 hour ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Any of the LAATs really. The Actis wants to go fast and arc dodge. Get behind things and autoblast it back to the stone age. The LAAT really can't keep up with it and keep a mutual target in arc at the same time to make fire convergence work reliably.

It's not about keeping up, with the LAAT, it's about keeping arc coverage on whoever your other ships are pointing at. With a 3 bank on the dial and a bow tie arc, that's honestly pretty trivial.

I haven't played many games with the LAAT plus Jedi, but triggering FC has never seemed to need much planning.