48 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Isn’t that supposed to show how incredibly strong Baze is, rather than say that the weapon itself is light enough for just anyone to use it?

No. It’s a LAW, (Light Anti-tank Weapon) designed for an individual infantryman to fire. I’m retired Army and have fired several different LAW weapons. They are designed to be light and easily fired from the shoulder. That is the design the HH-12 follows.

Now, if it was designed more like our Dragon or Javelin Launcher that requires the user to attach a sight and bi-pod then Cumbersome would make sense. But not for a shoulder fired LAW.

1 hour ago, RejjeN said:

By that definition he shouldn't have gotten to keep Han, since he only helped track him and helped lure Luke into a trap, not kill either of them

I think a more reasonable change to Bounty would be "Has attacked the target on the same turn" that way you can at least not hide the Bounty Hunter all game, but need to use them to contribute to the kill in some manner.

The bounty was issued by Jabba, not the Empire. Fett deliivered the Hansicle to Jabba, and gained a victory token. The bounty didn't specify how Han should be acquired before delivery.

Frankly my wish list is:

1. Clone Capt Rex to be recognized as the baseline 90pt commander and other commanders adjusted around his cost.

2. Point decreases on the broken units

3. R2D2 must have C3P0 accompanying him

4. Heavy weapon options being generally cheaper, for instance exhaust ones should cost the baseline unit plus 5-10 pts and that is it.

cumbersome technically doesnt cost an action. having to spend a recover action after exhausting does though. thats why exhaust is far more detrimental than cumbersome.

so yes while it make not make sense for a man-portable weapon to have cumbersome, the fact remains that the exhaust rule is far more debilitating to the HH12 than cumbersome is. Reducing the unit to 1 action a turn to be able to fire the weapon is unacceptable.

So if only one of those rules gets removed, either cumbersome or exhaust, it needs to be exhaust.

2 hours ago, drail14me said:

No. It’s a LAW, (Light Anti-tank Weapon) designed for an individual infantryman to fire. I’m retired Army and have fired several different LAW weapons. They are designed to be light and easily fired from the shoulder. That is the design the HH-12 follows.

Now, if it was designed more like our Dragon or Javelin Launcher that requires the user to attach a sight and bi-pod then Cumbersome would make sense. But not for a shoulder fired LAW.

its definitely not a LAW. a LAW is little more than a short tube with a single RPG in it. they are small and compact and can be stored in crates.

The HH12 is much larger. I dont even think a person could lift and fire something as big as the HH12 in real life. But because its starwars you can argue its made out of a superlight alloy that doesnt exist in real life.

The HH12 still probably shouldnt have cumbersome but its definitely heavier and more unwieldy than a LAW.

1 hour ago, aniron said:

The bounty was issued by Jabba, not the Empire. Fett deliivered the Hansicle to Jabba, and gained a victory token. The bounty didn't specify how Han should be acquired before delivery.

Yes, but he was hired by the Empire to track down the Millennium Falcon and then helped Lure Luke into a trap. My point was that the Bounty Hunters job is to assist with securing a certain bounty, if that is during a full-scale battle it would be a bad policy to deny them that just because a stray shot took out the bounty itself if they pursued it. No one would work for that employer after that xD

(Another option, though more complicated could be to have the Bounty Token placed where the marked model died, and then requiring the Bounty Hunter to claim it, but I imagine that would be far worse in most instances)

21 minutes ago, Khobai said:

cumbersome technically doesnt cost an action. having to spend a recover action after exhausting does though. thats why exhaust is far more detrimental than cumbersome.

so yes while it make not make sense for a man-portable weapon to have cumbersome, the fact remains that the exhaust rule is far more debilitating to the HH12 than cumbersome is. Reducing the unit to 1 action a turn to be able to fire the weapon is unacceptable.

So if only one of those rules gets removed, either cumbersome or exhaust, it needs to be exhaust.

its definitely not a LAW. a LAW is little more than a short tube with a single RPG in it. they are small and compact and can be stored in crates.

The HH12 is much larger. I dont even think a person could lift and fire something as big as the HH12 in real life. But because its starwars you can argue its made out of a superlight alloy that doesnt exist in real life.

The HH12 still probably shouldnt have cumbersome but its definitely heavier and more unwieldy than a LAW.

It's more like an RPG or Stinger, which still can be easily carried by a trooper and doesn't require setup before a shot.

I think for the Bounty Keyword Cad Bane is a good example of who we should be looking to, although Bossk isn't bad either. The characters who are given Bounty, need to be able to deal out the punishment and have some form of survivability. With Bossk it was his long range + regeneration, for Cad it is the fact he is hard to push wound through and he can mess you up once he gets close. Boba's thing was his armour, but now we have a lot of units with the same or comparable armour saves, so his trick to stay in the fight is watered down.

Boba isn't as deadly as Cad, he has a better save, but still doesn't have the tools Cad has from a mix of new keywords and much better equipment/command cards. Boba is a victim of the released to soon heroes/villains, if they did him now he'd be much different, likely most of the stuff on his command cards would just be upgrades he could take on his base unit, and his cards would be there to either get him out of dodge when he is hurt, or to deal massive damage on one turn. I'm not sure a straight points reduction fixes him, maybe they'll release a newer version of Boba later on to address his core issues.

As for claiming the bounty, I think any adjustment to the bounty keyword that doesn't involve the character with the keyword being the one to complete the objective is going to tip too far into overpowered. Yes it sucks that your opponent can counter play you by just hiding the target of the bounty, but that itself isn't always a bad thing, especially on the big pieces they want to get into the fight, like Luke. But I don't think we'd be okay with Secret Mission being completed by anyone in the army, so why should bounty? R2 is the problem with secret mission not the keyword itself, and if you can actually catch him without a suppression token, he isn't hard to kill. I've yet to see Padme complete the secret mission, mostly she is used as a token factory, so I don't think the keywords, both Bounty and Secret mission are the issue, just the units they are currently attached to.

4 minutes ago, costi said:

It's more like an RPG or Stinger, which still can be easily carried by a trooper and doesn't require setup before a shot.

More like a Carl Gustaf

22 minutes ago, costi said:

It's more like an RPG or Stinger, which still can be easily carried by a trooper and doesn't require setup before a shot.

its way bigger than either of those

the HH12 is enormous. Readying and firing it would definitely slow you down.

maybe cumbersome should just be changed to reduce your max speed to 1. if you make any moves greater than speed 1 before firing the weapon you cant fire it. and if you make any moves after firing it they cant be greater than speed 1. I could live with that.

even the eweb could move and shoot then which would be a huge buff to the eweb.

25 minutes ago, Nithorian said:

I think for the Bounty Keyword Cad Bane is a good example of who we should be looking to, although Bossk isn't bad either. The characters who are given Bounty, need to be able to deal out the punishment and have some form of survivability. With Bossk it was his long range + regeneration, for Cad it is the fact he is hard to push wound through and he can mess you up once he gets close. Boba's thing was his armour, but now we have a lot of units with the same or comparable armour saves, so his trick to stay in the fight is watered down.

Boba isn't as deadly as Cad, he has a better save, but still doesn't have the tools Cad has from a mix of new keywords and much better equipment/command cards. Boba is a victim of the released to soon heroes/villains, if they did him now he'd be much different, likely most of the stuff on his command cards would just be upgrades he could take on his base unit, and his cards would be there to either get him out of dodge when he is hurt, or do deal massive damage on one turn. I'm not sure a straight points reduction fixes him, maybe they'll release a newer version of Boba later on to address his core issues.

As for claiming the bounty, I think any adjustment to the bounty keyword that doesn't involve the character with the keyword being the one to complete the objective is going to tip too far into overpowered. Yes it sucks that your opponent can counter play you by just hiding the target of the bounty, but that itself isn't always a bad thing, especially on the big pieces they want to get into the fight, like Luke. But I don't think we'd be okay with Secret Mission being completed by anyone in the army, so why should bounty? R2 is the problem with secret mission not the keyword itself, and if you can actually catch him without a suppression token, he isn't hard to kill. I've yet to see Padme complete the secret mission, mostly she is used as a token factory, so I don't think the keywords, both Bounty and Secret mission are the issue, just the units they are currently attached to.

I agree. The issue with bounty is not the mechanic, but that it is overcosted. Secret mission is easier to achieve than bounty and costs less.

The Bounty keyword should cost less than secret mission.

1 hour ago, RejjeN said:

Yes, but he was hired by the Empire to track down the Millennium Falcon and then helped Lure Luke into a trap. My point was that the Bounty Hunters job is to assist with securing a certain bounty, if that is during a full-scale battle it would be a bad policy to deny them that just because a stray shot took out the bounty itself if they pursued it. No one would work for that employer after that xD

(Another option, though more complicated could be to have the Bounty Token placed where the marked model died, and then requiring the Bounty Hunter to claim it, but I imagine that would be far worse in most instances)

A second option could be not assigning the bounty at setup and waiting until the bounty hunter makes an attack against a commander or operative. The bounty hunter still has to defeat the unit to collect the bounty but can wait to see how the game shakes out and gives another element to bounty hunter units in general.

the bounty keyword should not require the bounty hunter to live either.

the bounty hunter guild collects the reward regardless of whether the bounty hunter dies or not.

and the empire certainly doesnt care if a bounty hunter dies.

4 hours ago, costi said:

It's more like an RPG or Stinger, which still can be easily carried by a trooper and doesn't require setup before a shot.

For yet another alternative, I’d compare it to a bazooka, which is fitting given the inspiration that WWII and dogfights had on Star Wars.

11 hours ago, Nithorian said:

Boba is a victim of the released to soon heroes/villains, if they did him now he'd be much different, likely most of the stuff on his command cards would just be upgrades he could take on his base unit, and his cards would be there to either get him out of dodge when he is hurt, or to deal massive damage on one turn. I'm not sure a straight points reduction fixes him, maybe they'll release a newer version of Boba later on to address his core issues.

Maybe in the Future we could get a two faction Fett Operative with the components to make either Jango or Boba with new stuff or something.

24 minutes ago, DarthDanMan said:

Maybe in the Future we could get a two faction Fett Operative with the components to make either Jango or Boba with new stuff or something.

Bojangle Fett lol

18 hours ago, RejjeN said:

Yes, but he was hired by the Empire to track down the Millennium Falcon and then helped Lure Luke into a trap. My point was that the Bounty Hunters job is to assist with securing a certain bounty, if that is during a full-scale battle it would be a bad policy to deny them that just because a stray shot took out the bounty itself if they pursued it. No one would work for that employer after that xD

(Another option, though more complicated could be to have the Bounty Token placed where the marked model died, and then requiring the Bounty Hunter to claim it, but I imagine that would be far worse in most instances)

As aniron said, Boba was hired by the Empire to track the Falcon , and deliver Han to Jabba. Even in the film, Boba complains that Han is no good to him if the carbonite freezing kills him. Looking at The Mandalorian , we see another example of the bounty having to be handled by the individual hunter to get paid, not any random person. Only one hunter got paid for the Child, after all, despite however many had Bounty or tried to get him. Bringing it back to Legion, it means that someone else would defeat the point of of Boba getting the victory point. Saying he's helping to track down whomever the Bounty is placed on doesn't really work since, you know, they're right across the table from you. And saying no one would work for an employer that picky with rewards... well, yeah they would, if the ultimate payoff was worth it. It's almost like bounty hunting is "a complicated profession" or something....

Also, I do find it hilarious that Bounty is now considered a difficult option for VPs, and an example of how bad the Empire has it in the game. A year ago, there were multiple threads on the exact opposite, claiming that the Rebels were in desperate need of their own units with Bounty, because of how easy it was to get and how often it swung games. Ah, good times.

14 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

As aniron said, Boba was hired by the Empire to track the Falcon , and deliver Han to Jabba. Even in the film, Boba complains that Han is no good to him if the carbonite freezing kills him. Looking at The Mandalorian , we see another example of the bounty having to be handled by the individual hunter to get paid, not any random person. Only one hunter got paid for the Child, after all, despite however many had Bounty or tried to get him. Bringing it back to Legion, it means that someone else would defeat the point of of Boba getting the victory point. Saying he's helping to track down whomever the Bounty is placed on doesn't really work since, you know, they're right across the table from you. And saying no one would work for an employer that picky with rewards... well, yeah they would, if the ultimate payoff was worth it. It's almost like bounty hunting is "a complicated profession" or something....

Also, I do find it hilarious that Bounty is now considered a difficult option for VPs, and an example of how bad the Empire has it in the game. A year ago, there were multiple threads on the exact opposite, claiming that the Rebels were in desperate need of their own units with Bounty, because of how easy it was to get and how often it swung games. Ah, good times.

Fair enough I suppose, I don't entirely agree but I've also little experience with Bounty, just think it looks weaker than SM

(especially when it's significantly more expensive, and you have to make intentionally bad calls or lose it if you miss killing a model by one, or overkill with something else.)

And I dunno about everyone else here, but I've only got CIS, so no real incentive to play an expensive Bounty Hunter with an expensive commander...

@RejjeN Secret Mission involves intentionally moving a non-combat oriented character directly at your opponent's army, hoping you can either distract them, get lucky defence rolls, or punch a hole. Meanwhile, it is more difficult to ensure the character is doing their primary "job."

So while on paper it is easier to get the SM token, I'd say the bounty hunters generally have an easier time staying on the board, giving them a greater opportunity to score the extra VP.

23 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@RejjeN Secret Mission involves intentionally moving a non-combat oriented character directly at your opponent's army, hoping you can either distract them, get lucky defence rolls, or punch a hole. Meanwhile, it is more difficult to ensure the character is doing their primary "job."

So while on paper it is easier to get the SM token, I'd say the bounty hunters generally have an easier time staying on the board, giving them a greater opportunity to score the extra VP.

in practice that hasnt been the case though. SM is easier to pull off. and less costly if you dont pull it off because r2d2 is a minimal investment (35 points). whereas bounty requires three times the points investment (115 points for bossk).

R2D2s primary job is adding an activation to the lists hes in while completing secret mission. Secret mission doesnt make his primary job more difficult because secret mission IS his primary job.

Whereas bounty is more likely to complicate the primary job of bounty hunters because going after the bounty often means ignoring more optimal targets and it also means you need to keep your bounty hunters alive so you cant take risks with them. it fundamentally alters how you play those characters. secret mission does not because secret mission is the reason r2d2 is taken in the first place (that and the extra activation he gives). whereas bounty is usually only a secondary reason for taking characters like bossk or boba fett and not the main reason you take them.

R2D2 absolutely needs to cost more. You should be forced to take C3PO with him.

42 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@RejjeN Secret Mission involves intentionally moving a non-combat oriented character directly at your opponent's army, hoping you can either distract them, get lucky defence rolls, or punch a hole. Meanwhile, it is more difficult to ensure the character is doing their primary "job."

So while on paper it is easier to get the SM token, I'd say the bounty hunters generally have an easier time staying on the board, giving them a greater opportunity to score the extra VP.

I also wanna add this cause I've seen some oddball stuff. That R2 unit can be punchy in GAR lists. R2's native ability to surge means it's one solid firesupport shot away from [Ctrl+ Alt+ Del>Task Manager> End Task]ing a mook who wasn't ready. Which when scooting between terrain to move to a deploy zone can be outright hilarious and brutal.

I know it's fringe but things with native surge values cannot be considered "non-combat oriented" in GAR lists lol.

2 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

I do find it hilarious that Bounty is now considered a difficult option for VPs, and an example of how bad the Empire has it in the game. A year ago, there were multiple threads on the exact opposite, claiming that the Rebels were in desperate need of their own units with Bounty, because of how easy it was to get and how often it swung games. Ah, good times.

This ^^^

How the pendulum doth swing! This is on par with all FFG games

45 minutes ago, Khobai said:

R2D2 absolutely needs to cost more. You should be forced to take C3PO with him.

Couldn't agree more, and we even have the keyword Equip now to implement it.

55 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I also wanna add this cause I've seen some oddball stuff. That R2 unit can be punchy in GAR lists. R2's native ability to surge means it's one solid firesupport shot away from [Ctrl+ Alt+ Del>Task Manager> End Task]ing a mook who wasn't ready. Which when scooting between terrain to move to a deploy zone can be outright hilarious and brutal.

I know it's fringe but things with native surge values cannot be considered "non-combat oriented" in GAR lists lol.

R2 is a great combat unit that can be overlooked by opponents. My last game it finished off a BX unit by himself when I was simply trying to add some suppression to it lol.

fire supported R2D2 is always funny too

2 hours ago, codytx2 said:

R2 is a great combat unit that can be overlooked by opponents. My last game it finished off a BX unit by himself when I was simply trying to add some suppression to it lol.

Yeah, sometimes very unlikely things happen (like an unupgraded B1 squad murdering a full Clone Trooper Squad in one shot..) and it's those times you really notice how there's nothing to really simulate the toughness or durability of units, as you've as much chance to be damaged by a peashooter as an AAT shot. Though of course a higher average of hits is always preferable, variance can swing a turn or game very hard.