44 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Was it just me, or did the Beskar spear seem a lot longer when Mando held it compared to when it was on his back?

It did.

Let's keep the biblical analysis off this thread. It's completely off-topic.

4 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Given who said the original version of the line, I can only say:

SITH!!

I'm just glad someone got it,

13 minutes ago, Bellona said:

Let's keep the biblical analysis off this thread. It's completely off-topic.

Agreed

20 minutes ago, Bellona said:

Let's keep the biblical analysis off this thread. It's completely off-topic.

What’re they gonna do? Shut down the forums?

Oh.... 😜

20 minutes ago, Stethemessiah said:

I'm just glad someone got it,

It’s one of my favorite moments from the pilot. It’s up there with Coulson dramatically stepping out of shadow and saying, “Sorry, it was really dark over in that corner.”

So...Beskar.

The more I ponder the season (and let it cool for a rewatch), the less I like it. It's just too much. He's basically superman and there's no kryptonite. I mean, when a dark trooper is punching your head *through the hull* and your skull isn't jello, that's going too far. And now that lightsabers don't work, man...how did the Jedi ever win? Not only does it make no sense in canon, it paints storytelling into a corner. Where's the danger, the risk?

What is wrong with people that they can't leave power structures alone? I just think of my son when he was 4, trying to grasp the scale of the world, always wanting things to be bigger-stronger-faster...except these toddlers are middle-aged.

4 minutes ago, whafrog said:

So...Beskar.

The more I ponder the season (and let it cool for a rewatch), the less I like it. It's just too much. He's basically superman and there's no kryptonite. I mean, when a dark trooper is punching your head *through the hull* and your skull isn't jello, that's going too far. And now that lightsabers don't work, man...how did the Jedi ever win? Not only does it make no sense in canon, it paints storytelling into a corner. Where's the danger, the risk?

What is wrong with people that they can't leave power structures alone? I just think of my son when he was 4, trying to grasp the scale of the world, always wanting things to be bigger-stronger-faster...except these toddlers are middle-aged.

To be fair, hasn't beskar always been exactly like this, except it's so much more obvious here because it's in a visual medium now instead of some EU novel?

As for Jedi versus Manos, there is always Move: grab helmet and lift upwards, then while the Mandalorian is paralysed by culture shock, knock him out with his own helmet. And Mace Windu seemed to manage just fine against Jango without even touching the armour.

16 minutes ago, whafrog said:

So...Beskar.

The more I ponder the season (and let it cool for a rewatch), the less I like it. It's just too much. He's basically superman and there's no kryptonite. I mean, when a dark trooper is punching your head *through the hull* and your skull isn't jello, that's going too far. And now that lightsabers don't work, man...how did the Jedi ever win? Not only does it make no sense in canon, it paints storytelling into a corner. Where's the danger, the risk?

What is wrong with people that they can't leave power structures alone? I just think of my son when he was 4, trying to grasp the scale of the world, always wanting things to be bigger-stronger-faster...except these toddlers are middle-aged.

I think they left themselves an out with the line that the Darksaber can cut through anything except “pure” beskar. Morgan Elsbeth used the same qualifier about the spear. Bo-Katan and company didn’t seem quite as ready to just jump out and tank in the Gozanti’s hallway as Din. Boba’s helmet has the signature dent. Even Din’s original armor was pretty battered. So perhaps most Mandalorian armor is made of a beskar alloy that’s tough stuff, but not as (to borrow a phrase oft-used in various X-Men comics) nigh-invulnerable as pure beskar.

That doesn’t solve Din being pretty untouchable, but it allows for the differences that we’ve seen in the effectiveness of different Mandalorian armor.

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

What’re they gonna do? Shut down the forums?

Oh.... 😜

Just saw that these forums are slated for execution 2/1/21. Oh well...

2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Just saw that these forums are slated for execution 2/1/21. Oh well...

Yes, that’s the punchline of the post. 😏

So... about Gideon's experiments with Grogu's blood...

Is it just me or did those Dark Troopers react to Luke's presence at around the same time as Grogu, before even Gideon was aware something was very wrong?

3 hours ago, whafrog said:

So...Beskar.

The more I ponder the season (and let it cool for a rewatch), the less I like it. It's just too much. He's basically superman and there's no kryptonite. I mean, when a dark trooper is punching your head *through the hull* and your skull isn't jello, that's going too far. And now that lightsabers don't work, man...how did the Jedi ever win? Not only does it make no sense in canon, it paints storytelling into a corner. Where's the danger, the risk?

Well, Beskar is effectively standing in for Cortosis,. In terms of risk, that's a writing problem rather than a conceptual problem (IMO). His Beskar armor isn't fully articulated interlocking plates. There are places the plates don't protect. When Mando is targeted with a massive barrage of blaster fire he should probably get grazed, if not suffer a more serious flesh wound, here and there.

New Arquitens Data! Moff Gideon's light cruiser launched 2 TIE fighters and hand 1 more TIE in position to launch when Bo-Katan crashed the Lambda in the landing bay. Then, when Mando steps off the Lambda, we get a shot of 5 more ties still sitting in their racks. Arquitens TIE complement: 8 .

On 12/20/2020 at 11:35 AM, Nytwyng said:

Guess Yoda and Obi-Wan were also (checks notes) “emasculated and near incompetent” in the OT. /shrug

One major difference: We had only ever seen them in the OT when those films came out. The PT didn't exist. They actually got a power up and positive makeover in the PT. Luke got the opposite in the ST. Word.

31 minutes ago, Vondy said:

One major difference: We had only ever seen them in the OT when those films came out. The PT didn't exist. They actually got a power up and positive makeover in the PT. Luke got the opposite in the ST. Word.

And then, after that “power up and positive makeover,” these two, the only two examples Luke had of Jedi, when faced with failure, went into hiding and lives as curmudgeons. Luke did exactly as he was taught to do. Word.

44 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Well, Beskar is effectively standing in for Cortosis,.

Of course, but I never liked Cortosis either. No point in either of them, because good stories aren't built around "tech", they are built around characters.

5 hours ago, whafrog said:

So...Beskar.

The more I ponder the season (and let it cool for a rewatch), the less I like it. It's just too much. He's basically superman and there's no kryptonite. I mean, when a dark trooper is punching your head *through the hull* and your skull isn't jello, that's going too far. And now that lightsabers don't work, man...how did the Jedi ever win? Not only does it make no sense in canon, it paints storytelling into a corner. Where's the danger, the risk?

What is wrong with people that they can't leave power structures alone? I just think of my son when he was 4, trying to grasp the scale of the world, always wanting things to be bigger-stronger-faster...except these toddlers are middle-aged.

We do see him get worn down by weight of fire a few times. Like on the Gozanti and before Boba arrived in his armour. He might seem nigh impervious, but he can be worn down.

5 hours ago, whafrog said:

Of course, but I never liked Cortosis either. No point in either of them, because good stories aren't built around "tech", they are built around characters.

Sure, but you ignored the rest of my comment, which was that the problem lies primarily in the writing rather than the concept. He has lots of exposed fleshy bits that never seem to get hit. He's vulnerable despite the beskar. The problem isn't the beskar. Its plot armor .

5 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

And then, after that “power up and positive makeover,” these two, the only two examples Luke had of Jedi, when faced with failure, went into hiding and lives as curmudgeons. Luke did exactly as he was taught to do. Word.

It was too little too late and badly executed. I'm not a "blame the fans" guy and tend to believe in the "wisdom of the village." If a large part of the fanbase felt their iconic hero was treated badly then the writers need to own that and apologize. I have zero problems with Luke retreating into exile like Yoda and Obi-Wan, but the character we were presented with was unrecognizable as the Luke we knew and written without intelligence or respect for him as a an established character of central importance in the franchise. He wasn't respected as an iconic hero deeply beloved by generations of fans. Instead, in the directors own words, he was intentionally subverted.

Luke isn't a Jedi. He is the Jedi. He's the character that we watched grow into a Jedi on screen and who defined what it meant to be a Jedi for the entire franchise. Not in terms of code. Not in terms of technique. Not in terms of "cool force powers" That's mere trappings and window dressing and more in line with the prequel Jedi (who wouldn't exist for many years). Luke was the one who defined what it meant to be a Jedi in terms of soul. If you are going to write an arc for such an iconic and important character finding himself again you don't do it as a half-developed and poorly scripted B plot.

You double-down, go all-in, and you make that the A plot. The story they hinted at in the last Jedi could have been done well, but the overall fan backlash was well deserved and to try to jam an otherwise interesting concept into a movie that wasn't about Luke was ill-advised. And that's really the point: if you aren't telling Luke's story you don't mess with Luke's story. You leave it alone and focus on your main character's story. To wit, you develop Rey and her story. For all of chapter 16's flaws (and it certainly had some) the Luke we got in the Mandalorian was the Luke many of us have been waiting to see since 1983. Unlike a lot of fans I don't necessarily want a show that's just about Luke, but when he does appear, I want a Luke who is true and consistent to the historic character many of us grew up wanting to be.

4 minutes ago, Vondy said:

It was too little too late and badly executed. I'm not a "blame the fans" guy and tend to believe in the "wisdom of the village." If a large part of the fanbase felt their iconic hero was treated badly then the writers need to own that and apologize. I have zero problems with Luke retreating into exile like Yoda and Obi-Wan, but the character we were presented with was unrecognizable as the Luke we knew and written without intelligence or respect for him as a an established character of central importance in the franchise. He wasn't respected as an iconic hero deeply beloved by generations of fans. Instead, in the directors own words, he was intentionally subverted.

Luke isn't a Jedi. He is the Jedi. He's the character that we watched grow into a Jedi on screen and who defined what it meant to be a Jedi for the entire franchise. Not in terms of code. Not in terms of technique. Not in terms of "cool force powers" That's mere trappings and window dressing and more in line with the prequel Jedi (who wouldn't exist for many years). Luke was the one who defined what it meant to be a Jedi in terms of soul. If you are going to write an arc for such an iconic and important character finding himself again you don't do it as a half-developed and poorly scripted B plot.

You double-down, go all-in, and you make that the A plot. The story they hinted at in the last Jedi could have been done well, but the overall fan backlash was well deserved and to try to jam an otherwise interesting concept into a movie that wasn't about Luke was ill-advised. And that's really the point: if you aren't telling Luke's story you don't mess with Luke's story. You leave it alone and focus on your main character's story. To wit, you develop Rey and her story. For all of chapter 16's flaws (and it certainly had some) the Luke we got in the Mandalorian was the Luke many of us have been waiting to see since 1983. Unlike a lot of fans I don't necessarily want a show that's just about Luke, but when he does appear, I want a Luke who is true and consistent to the historic character many of us grew up wanting to be.

Was there really a large part of the fan base upset with it, or mostly a loud part of the fan base?

Luke’s TLJ story was never going to be the A plot because the old guard weren’t the leads in this trilogy; they were supporting characters. Personally, I’d say that a Luke who gets cocky enough to buy into his own press, has impulse control issues, then follows his mentors’ example in the face of failure before finally finding his fire again and saving the day and restoring hope in the most Jedi way possible (using the Force for knowledge and defense, not attack) is, in fact, consistent to the historic character and isn’t messing with anything.

I’m sorry it didn’t work for you.

16 hours ago, whafrog said:

So...Beskar.

The more I ponder the season (and let it cool for a rewatch), the less I like it. It's just too much. He's basically superman and there's no kryptonite. I mean, when a dark trooper is punching your head *through the hull* and your skull isn't jello, that's going too far. And now that lightsabers don't work, man...how did the Jedi ever win? Not only does it make no sense in canon, it paints storytelling into a corner. Where's the danger, the risk?

Because his head was against the bulk head he took no damage, that's not nonsense, that's physics.

A real world example of the same thing can be seen in the HMB list. Quite often a fighter will get hit in the head whilst it is against the list - the force is transmitted through the helmet and into the list without hurting the fighter inside. Taking those blows when there's nothing to absorb them will discombobulate as the head is forced to move.

44 minutes ago, Dazgrim said:

Because his head was against the bulk head he took no damage, that's not nonsense, that's physics.

A real world example of the same thing can be seen in the HMB list. Quite often a fighter will get hit in the head whilst it is against the list - the force is transmitted through the helmet and into the list without hurting the fighter inside. Taking those blows when there's nothing to absorb them will discombobulate as the head is forced to move.

Google tells me stuff about hydroxy-methylbutyric acid when I look up what an HMB list is. This seems... wrong in context?

9 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Was there really a large part of the fan base upset with it, or mostly a loud part of the fan base?

From what I've seen? Both. Even among the very few people I had encountered who liked TLJ, they thought Luke got shafted. Especially the people who particularly liked Luke Skywalker in the first place. I know a writer who really liked TFA because she thought they set up the story well and had interesting characters. She's not really a Star Wars fan (as in, hasn't watched half the movies and doesn't particularly like them), but she has an decent knowledge of the story and the characters. When she watched TLJ, she was horrified and, unlike me, didn't have any desire to like it. In discussing it afterwards, she called Luke "character assassinated" even before I did, describing the whole movie as terrible writing.

You want a character arc? Sure. Show us the progression from start to finish. Don't intentionally destroy everything about the character that made him iconic before he even walks on screen. And I don't buy that he just made the same mistakes as Obi-Wan and Yoda.

In their case, the Empire killed all the other Jedi and established oppressive control over the galaxy. They then had nothing they could do other than retreat until the time was right for a return or to then actually do something, because to try anything then would have been suicidal. Obi-Wan went into hiding on Tatooine to protect Luke, in hopes of training him when the time was right. Yoda went to Dagobah to study the Force.

Jake Skywalker was about to murder his nephew over a bad dream, and then ran and hid on an island in the middle of nowhere before there was any sort of real threat rather than trying to find and stop the problem. Then when we meet him on the island, he is everything Luke wasn't and has a last-minute redemption when Rey gives an inspiring speech.

Whether you think the "character arc" is good or not, we didn't get one.

Character arc definition, emphasis mine: A character arc is the transformation or inner journey of a character over the course of a story . If a story has a character arc, the character begins as one sort of person and gradually transforms into a different sort of person in response to changing developments in the story.

He ends one story as one sort of character, then begins the next as a radically different character, with the substantive change having happened completely offscreen.

On 12/21/2020 at 12:47 AM, RLogue177 said:

Mace Windu is going to show up with an eye patch. Something... something... Jedi Initiative.

Mace has to turn up... Sam L is waaay too cool to kill in any universe