That scene where they're having a drink with the officer is one of the best in the entire show so far.

Also, was there ever a practical point behind Operation Cinder, or was it just Sith lunacy?

5 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

That scene where they're having a drink with the officer is one of the best in the entire show so far.

Also, was there ever a practical poing behind Operation Cinder, or was it just Sith lunacy?

A bit of both. "An Empire that can't protect me shouldn't exist" was the selling point, but he weeded out the less useful/loyal Imperials and pulled the most useful/loyal Imperials out to found/start/whatever the First Order, if I remember correctly.

5 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

An idea was put out on the Star Wars Explained aftershow live stream. In the concept art during the closing credits, the pirates (or “pirates”) were human, but after the roll through the village to refresh us on the Empire’s oppression, the production decision was made to make the pirates some generic alien race so it wouldn’t be quite as obvious and troubling that Mando was mowing through people trying to take their world back in order to get his kid back.

Wife, daughter, and I always take time to look at the concept art then talk about the changes that were made. I noticed the human pirates and we came to the same conclusion - too icky to have Mando killing local humans who were fighting the oppression of the Empire. I would have liked it myself, but understand that it's Disney and Star Wars. I liked the initial complexity of it though. The villagers glaring at them since they believe they are Imperials. Then having to kill off some villager resistance fighters all in the name of finding the Child. Huge moral conundrum.

2 hours ago, Sturn said:

I liked the initial complexity of it though. The villagers glaring at them since they believe they are Imperials. Then having to kill off some villager resistance fighters all in the name of finding the Child. Huge moral conundrum.

Yes I'm quoting myself. But, I realized this would be a great dilemma to throw at some future PCs. They must remain disguised as the baddies to complete a task, but now the goodies are approaching? What do you do? 😈 <-- Evil GM happy face.

4 hours ago, Sturn said:

Yes I'm quoting myself. But, I realized this would be a great dilemma to throw at some future PCs. They must remain disguised as the baddies to complete a task, but now the goodies are approaching? What do you do? 😈 <-- Evil GM happy face.

Stun setting!

This episode must have been an reference to the classic The Wages of Fear ! Made my heart skip a beat!

I love the fact that this show is basically a barrage of well-executed clichés and homages from beginning to end.

12 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

That scene where they're having a drink with the officer is one of the best in the entire show so far.

Also, was there ever a practical point behind Operation Cinder, or was it just Sith lunacy?

12 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

A bit of both. "An Empire that can't protect me shouldn't exist" was the selling point, but he weeded out the less useful/loyal Imperials and pulled the most useful/loyal Imperials out to found/start/whatever the First Order, if I remember correctly.

Yep. It was a “scorched earth” campaign. As far as Palpatine was concerned, if he couldn’t rule the galaxy, the galaxy, and everything in it, should die .

23 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

A bit of both. "An Empire that can't protect me shouldn't exist" was the selling point, but he weeded out the less useful/loyal Imperials and pulled the most useful/loyal Imperials out to found/start/whatever the First Order, if I remember correctly.

Remember the arguments that not all Imperials are evil, some are just misguided patriots? Well, Operation Cinder is pretty much the way to do away with those guys and just leave the ones that are rotten to the core. It's a way to make the Empire less nuanced, and some people like that, especially when you're selling stories of massive violence being done to these guys on a regular basis.

18 hours ago, Sturn said:

Yes I'm quoting myself. But, I realized this would be a great dilemma to throw at some future PCs. They must remain disguised as the baddies to complete a task, but now the goodies are approaching? What do you do? 😈 <-- Evil GM happy face.

Disney can't risk being seen with evil GM face.

On 12/12/2020 at 6:46 AM, SuperWookie said:

I just hope it's not yet another one Disney spits out just because they want to.

Can we please stop with this... Lucas Film puts out this awesome show and we still have to go through this whole “Disney bad!” routine?

On 12/12/2020 at 4:31 PM, micheldebruyn said:

They look like Iktochi to me.

Yep. They did. Maybe a hornless subspecies?

On 12/11/2020 at 10:00 PM, Rosco74 said:

Excellent, I just didn't understand the point of scanning your face on the Imp terminal if it's not restricted to Imperial staff only (as a secondary protection)... so I came to only 2 conclusions.

1 - They searched a reason to show the Mando's face and they finaly couldn't find better..

2 - Mando is already registered in the Imperial database... why I dunno

Wasn’t it stated at the start of the episode that it would trigger an alarm if someone wasnin the IBS database and that was why none of the others could go with Mayfeld?

Since the empire would consist of millions of individuals and at one point would get hundreds of thousands of new recruits at all times it stands to reason to only log those you would deem a hazard.

I really like the conflict we are seeing with wearing the helmet. Perhaps he is rethinking The Way he's been doing it?

• I don't take this off for anyone, no matter what.
• Not even with the Twi'lek ex-gf.
• Even for a pretty lady in a remote village who can shoot things really well. Close, but no.
• A droid technically isn't a living thing, so I will allow it this time.
• Even when others ruthlessly tease him, like maybe he's a Gungan.
• Not in front of an alien child.
• (Already breaks the BH code by stealing The Asset back.)
• Likes finding other Mandos, until they remove their helms.
• Declares others Mandos as NOT Mandalorian (and leaves) since they remove their helms.
• Does not say he'd hunt the Jedi, only listened to the offer. (Still being technically obedient to a code)
• Willing to remove the helm in front of others to get what he needs to save the child. Or, he at least thought no one would be face-to-face with him, so it was okay.

A re-thinking of The Way or a weakening resolve? Is it a mortal 'sin' or mistake which he must atone for? Will he be hard on himself, repentant, and double-down? Or, is he learning that life is complicated and people are imperfect? Will we eventually see him helmet-free regularly? Will others, like him, change with him?

One thing to remember regarding the raiders is that they aren't just stealing the cargo. Mando and Mayfeld aren't actually defending anything other than themselves. They have no choice in the situation other than who dies. If the raiders succeed, our heroes die. If the heroes try to run away, they will still have to fight the raiders, probably killing some of them, and will not succeed at their task. If they stand and fight, they might survive and rescue Baby Yogu.

2 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Wasn’t it stated at the start of the episode that it would trigger an alarm if someone wasnin the IBS database and that was why none of the others could go with Mayfeld?

Since the empire would consist of millions of individuals and it one point would get hundreds of thousands of new recruits at all times it stands to reason to only log those you would deem a hazard.

I can absolutely understand why a place packed with so many people and so few refreshers needs to keep track of who has IBS.

2 hours ago, DurosSpacer said:

I really like the conflict we are seeing with wearing the helmet. Perhaps he is rethinking The Way he's been doing it?

• I don't take this off for anyone, no matter what.
• Not even with the Twi'lek ex-gf.
• Even for a pretty lady in a remote village who can shoot things really well. Close, but no.
• A droid technically isn't a living thing, so I will allow it this time.
• Even when others ruthlessly tease him, like maybe he's a Gungan.
• Not in front of an alien child.
• (Already breaks the BH code by stealing The Asset back.)
• Likes finding other Mandos, until they remove their helms.
• Declares others Mandos as NOT Mandalorian (and leaves) since they remove their helms.
• Does not say he'd hunt the Jedi, only listened to the offer. (Still being technically obedient to a code)
• Willing to remove the helm in front of others to get what he needs to save the child. Or, he at least thought no one would be face-to-face with him, so it was okay.

A re-thinking of The Way or a weakening resolve? Is it a mortal 'sin' or mistake which he must atone for? Will he be hard on himself, repentant, and double-down? Or, is he learning that life is complicated and people are imperfect? Will we eventually see him helmet-free regularly? Will others, like him, change with him?

I think it's much like those that subscribe to beliefs such as "thou shalt not kill," but find that they need to make exceptions, sometimes lots of them.

Just now, HappyDaze said:

I think it's much like those that subscribe to beliefs such as "thou shalt not kill," but find that they need to make exceptions, sometimes lots of them.

"Thou shalt not kill" is an incorrect translation. It should be "murder."

7 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

"Thou shalt not kill" is an incorrect translation. It should be "murder."

Along this line, we have: perhaps "Don't take off the helmet" is an incorrect translation. It should be "don't show your face." I'm drawing a parallel of beliefs and how they can be considered absolute or flexible, but even the absolutes tend to break when they don't bend.

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

Along this line, we have: perhaps "Don't take off the helmet" is an incorrect translation. It should be "show your face." I'm drawing a parallel of beliefs and how they can be considered absolute or flexible, but even the absolutes tend to break when they don't bend.

The rule is generally related to the result of an action, not the action itself, hence "do not murder" rather than "thou shalt not bludgeon to death." My understanding is that the rule is to not reveal your face to another living being.

If the rule was "don't take off your helmet in front of another living being" then what if you didn't take off your helmet in front of another living being and took it off elsewhere, then went to meet with another living being?

As for absolutes, the absolutes should never be bent or broken because that is not how they work. However, there are times when something that appears to be breaking the rules is not, as it does not fit the definition of the offense. We do not have a great understanding of what the rule actually is or how it is practiced, so it is hard to draw these conclusions.

Except for Mayfeld, Mando could say truthfully that no living being has seen his face because they all got killed. We don't know all the exceptions, classification errors, or atonements that apply. Are you able to atone for revealing your face by killing anyone who saw it?

If it is as simple as "Never let another living being see your face." then Mando has broken the rule. And it is perfectly reasonable for it to simply be the case that he broke the rule. That doesn't have any bearing on the rule itself, merely on his fidelity to it. We don't have to bend the rule to fit his actions.

As for where I stand on it, I'm withholding judgement. I just want to see how this shakes out.

15 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The rule is generally related to the result of an action, not the action itself, hence "do not murder" rather than "thou shalt not bludgeon to death." My understanding is that the rule is to not reveal your face to another living being.

If the rule was "don't take off your helmet in front of another living being" then what if you didn't take off your helmet in front of another living being and took it off elsewhere, then went to meet with another living being?

As for absolutes, the absolutes should never be bent or broken because that is not how they work. However, there are times when something that appears to be breaking the rules is not, as it does not fit the definition of the offense. We do not have a great understanding of what the rule actually is or how it is practiced, so it is hard to draw these conclusions.

Except for Mayfeld, Mando could say truthfully that no living being has seen his face because they all got killed. We don't know all the exceptions, classification errors, or atonements that apply. Are you able to atone for revealing your face by killing anyone who saw it?

If it is as simple as "Never let another living being see your face." then Mando has broken the rule. And it is perfectly reasonable for it to simply be the case that he broke the rule. That doesn't have any bearing on the rule itself, merely on his fidelity to it. We don't have to bend the rule to fit his actions.

As for where I stand on it, I'm withholding judgement. I just want to see how this shakes out.

You obviously care about this a lot more than I do. Sadly, you'll probably give it more thought than the ones writing it too, because I guarantee they only go with what sounds most dramatic for any particular scene rather than really get into any kind of philosophy on it.

52 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

"Thou shalt not kill" is an incorrect translation. It should be "murder."

Thanks, you beat me to it.

I may be getting ahead of what is going to happen regarding the helmet, but I think I'm going to love where it's heading. We've been set up with Mando being a zealot. We are now seeing him slowly developing his own beliefs, not just a robotic zealot. I hope this is eventually leading to Mando pulling off his helmet and showing his face to Grogu when he's rescued.

On 11/7/2020 at 5:04 AM, Sturn said:

Yes I hated the sublight travel. I thought it was lazy writing without considering what it does to the big picture.

But, as everything in Star Wars, it can be fixed and may actually benefit our RPG. The name obviously previously meant "less then light speed". This writer just changed that. So, perhaps the term is a holdover from days when thrusters were only capable of sublight speeds? The term never changed even when thrusters became much more capable? Now thrusters easily can travel well beyond light speed without reaching the efficiency of hyperspace drives. They are still often called "sublight" drives kinda like how modern engines still used archaic terms such as, "horsepower".

For RPG's this can be fun. You can still travel slowly to nearby star systems. For example, referees who end up with players in a non-hyperspace capable ship stranded in a system, have a solution that doesn't require a savior in a jump ship. There's another solution that can lead to side adventures such as pirates.

....and it just fixed the Hoth to "Lando System" debate.

But yes, lazy writing. There were more ways to get them to crash on the ice planet mid-trip then to twist Star Wars canon.

I was bounced off the screen a bit by this as well, and did some thinking, and this was more-or-less what I came up with, based on some earlier confusions like Han calling hyperspace "the jump to lightspeed."

Maybe "lightspeed" and "sublight" are colloquialisms in Star Wars, not technical terms, with "lightspeed" basically meaning "travelling though hyperspace," and "sublight" meaning "not travelling through hyperspace." So you might have an engine that can achieve speeds faster than the speed of light, but it's a "sublight engine" because it's not a "hyperdrive" that propels you through hyperspace.

Granted, this completely breaks the laws of physics, but Star Wars has a long, proud history of spanking physics on its behind before sending it to its room with no supper.

18 minutes ago, ErikModi said:

I was bounced off the screen a bit by this as well, and did some thinking, and this was more-or-less what I came up with, based on some earlier confusions like Han calling hyperspace "the jump to lightspeed."

Maybe "lightspeed" and "sublight" are colloquialisms in Star Wars, not technical terms, with "lightspeed" basically meaning "travelling though hyperspace," and "sublight" meaning "not travelling through hyperspace." So you might have an engine that can achieve speeds faster than the speed of light, but it's a "sublight engine" because it's not a "hyperdrive" that propels you through hyperspace.

Granted, this completely breaks the laws of physics, but Star Wars has a long, proud history of spanking physics on its behind before sending it to its room with no supper.

Rather than an explanation like that, I'd rather just say that the writers and their canon is full of crap and ignore what doesn't make sense. Otherwise you end up with duct tape holding stuff together that only serves to honor the idiots that made the problem in the first place.

On 12/12/2020 at 9:34 AM, micheldebruyn said:

That scene where they're having a drink with the officer is one of the best in the entire show so far.

This reminded me of Inglorious Basterds. A tense moment where undercover operatives have to associate with a VERY inquisitive enemy.

Migs Mayfeld for Republic President!

As much as this show is consistently cool and bad-****...

It seems like the creators have un-learned the lesson television creators learned in the late 90s, which is that to make a series interesting in the long term over several seasons, you need an interesting plot and characters with evolving relationships. This doesn't mean everything needs to be complicated and heady. But TV is different from movies. I can watch John Wick and all I need to entertain me for 2 hours is the action. But The Mandalorian is aiming to entertain me for more than 10 hours. When things go on that long, action action action starts to feel empty and repetitive.

I hope that the show goes beyond that formula next season. I'm still enjoying it, but if they keep up the same formula it will be too much. I'm not saying the show needs to follow the Golden Age TV formula in every respect, but right now it's doing the complete opposite of that, and I don't think it's sustainable for much longer.