Scenario: Echo is killed, his squad mate is behind cover and is thus replaced by him.

Echo has 2 wounds, his squad mate has 1.

Does Echo return with 2 wounds or 1?

There's no reason why they wouldn't given the current rules as written.

To elaborate a bit, under the current rules Echo would not have any would tokens on them after replacing the other model as the replaced model did no have a wound token.
It is important to remember that a model is not defeated until it is assigned a number of wound tokens equal to the health value.

Rumors say, the Devs are aware of this, this is not as it is intended and the issue will be addressed in the next RRG update. Fingers crossed.

5 minutes ago, SailorMeni said:

Rumors say, the Devs are aware of this, this is not as it is intended and the issue will be addressed in the next RRG update. Fingers crossed.

That will be interesting... since then the Leader model is just constantly being defeated without an extensive rewrite due to already having a wound token.

Edit: Or do you just mean with the way the Treat/Repair rules don't work as (likely) intended on Counterparts or the named Heavies?

I have no deeper knowledge. There is just one guy on discord with a short line to the Devs. They say it will be addressed, but not how. But definitely a 4 HP strike team (+2 per treat) is not how it was intended.

Treat/Repair only interacts weirdly when it brings a model back since it checks the unit health for how many wound tokens to place. Otherwise you are just getting a single wound restored. And that's been "broken" since the introduction of Counterpart. The devs have been aware of that for months (I have an email in my inbox saying as much).

We'll see what happens. I don't see a single extra wound on a strike team unbalancing the game significantly, especially since to get the 4 HP strike team requires using LoS blocking terrain.

I suppose the "easier" fix (to prevent named character from repeatedly having to replace models after one instance of LoS "sniping") would be to have the replacement happen on the first wound the 2 HP leader would take. Then they don't have a floating wound token after the replacement, but the health of the unit is unchanged. Probably a bit harder to write clearly though...

The easiest fix is to get rid of the rule that makes them the unit's leader.

If they arnt the leader theyll stay dead when they die and they wont keep coming back to life with 2 wounds.

It was a bad rule to begin with.

Am I the only one that see this like, when a unit leader dies you assign a new leader not respawning it from dead (replacing mini is important to distinct leader from the rest) so when Fives/Echo dies you assign a new leader from the remaining squad and he's not a Fives/Echo, just some random guy with the stats from unit card.

8 hours ago, Khobai said:

The easiest fix is to get rid of the rule that makes them the unit's leader.

If they arnt the leader theyll stay dead when they die and they wont keep coming back to life with 2 wounds.

It was a bad rule to begin with.

But this would be a huge nerf to saboteur strike team, where a single wound would make them useless.

2 hours ago, costi said:

But this would be a huge nerf to saboteur strike team, where a single wound would make them useless.

what makes you think they shouldnt be nerfed? GAR shouldnt be able to get to 11 activations so easily.

5 minutes ago, Khobai said:

what makes you think they shouldnt be nerfed? GAR shouldnt be able to get to 11 activations so easily.

If the special weapon model in a strike team is not the leader, he dies first. So after the first shot you are left with a useless bloke. Saboteurs are potentially exposed to much more enemy fire, so such change would impact them more than snipers. They have a hard time on the table as it is.

yes its so hard for them to hide behind terrain and generate tokens. lol.

honestly they should just remove strike teams from the game. they were a mistake.

Just now, Khobai said:

yes its so hard for them to hide behind terrain and generate tokens. lol.

honestly they should just remove strike teams from the game. they were a mistake.

I think we are talking about 2 completely different things.

16 minutes ago, Khobai said:

what makes you think they shouldnt be nerfed? GAR shouldnt be able to get to 11 activations so easily.

You do realize that the GAR doesn't even have saboteur strike team, right? The only heavy weapon options available to GAR strike teams are snipers, Echo, and Fives. You're not bothering to read what he's actually typing, or yet again showing your lack of understanding of the game.

I do understand GAR doesnt have saboteur strike teams. Which is why I didnt understand what he was even talking about.

How does getting rid of the leader rule on arc trooper strike teams specifically in any way effect the saboteur strike teams of other factions?

It has absolutely zero effect on saboteur strike teams. It would only affect arc trooper strike teams because youre only removing the rule from arc trooper strike teams. Youre the one that has a lack of understanding of the game if you think removing the rule from arc trooper strike teams in any way nerfs other strike teams. They are completely separate units. Just because you remove the heavy weapon leader rule from one of them doesnt mean you have to remove the rule from ALL of them.

Its justifiable to remove the heavy weapon is leader rule from arc trooper strike teams because echo and fives have 2 wounds which is something none of the other strike teams have. it fixes the whole problem of echo and fives getting resurrected with 2 wounds. And it doesnt really matter for arc trooper strike teams anyway since theyre just going to hide behind terrain and factorize tokens and be used to stall out the activations of their bigger units.

Although if they removed strike teams from the game completely id be okay with that too. Thats an even easier fix.

The reason why he brought it up was that you said:

Quote

The easiest fix is to get rid of the rule that makes them the unit's leader.

You did not specify that you wanted the removed from the ARCs alone until your last post, you said to get rid of the rule. Since that's the rule that makes strike teams work the way they do, it would absolutely nerf them. If you had meant just the ARCs, you could have clarified that several posts ago, rather than to argue the point you did.

If you think Echo/Fives are being used as token factories, you clearly haven't looked at their prices vs regular DC-15X snipers. They have advantages, but not for token farming.

And while I don't give a **** about strike teams personally, not all strike teams are created equally. Sab teams have never been the problem that sniper teams are, so removing both to address the issues of one is both an overreaction, and detrimental to the game.

3 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

If you think Echo/Fives are being used as token factories, you clearly haven't looked at their prices vs regular DC-15X snipers. They have advantages, but not for token farming.

But the context was if you removed the heavy is the leader rule. They would absolutely be used as token factories. Because if echo and five had to die first the surviving leader would be used to generate tokens. My point was that isnt that big of a nerf to arc trooper strike teams because they can always turn the unit into a token factory after the 2 wound character dies.

Quote

Sab teams have never been the problem that sniper teams are, so removing both to address the issues of one is both an overreaction, and detrimental to the game.

Im not convinced that if you remove snipers from the picture then people wont just start taking sab teams instead.

Its my belief that allowing players to stack too many low cost activations will always carry with it potential for abuse.

Seeing GAR lists with 11 activations has convinced me that all low-cost non-corps units are potentially a problem. Even something as innocuous as R2D2 is causing major problems. So of course strike teams are a problem.

FFG knows that too and I definitely think theyll do something to limit how many strike teams people can take. Making strike teams detachments of their parent unit has also been suggested as a way of limiting them.

8 hours ago, NetCop said:

Am I the only one that see this like, when a unit leader dies you assign a new leader not respawning it from dead (replacing mini is important to distinct leader from the rest) so when Fives/Echo dies you assign a new leader from the remaining squad and he's not a Fives/Echo, just some random guy with the stats from unit card.

That is not how the rules work though, otherwise the heavy weapon of strike teams wouldn't move over as well. If the model representing the upgrade is still in the unit, then the unit still has access to the weapons and abilities on the upgrade card (it is worth noting that the abilities portion of my sentence is RAI, but not RAW right now).

Cinematically, it is more akin to seeing someone we think was the hero get hit, but it turns out it was someone else that looks like them from behind.

2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Cinematically, it is more akin to seeing someone we think was the hero get hit, but it turns out it was someone else that looks like them from behind.

I think of it more like, the random Trooper jumped in front of the blaster bolt and pushed the unit leader out of the way.

1 minute ago, Lochlan said:

I think of it more like, the random Trooper jumped in front of the blaster bolt and pushed the unit leader out of the way.

Or in some cases, was pushed or pulled.

But yes, that also works.

18 hours ago, Khobai said:

But the context was if you removed the heavy is the leader rule. They would absolutely be used as token factories. Because if echo and five had to die first the surviving leader would be used to generate tokens. My point was that isnt that big of a nerf to arc trooper strike teams because they can always turn the unit into a token factory after the 2 wound character dies.

Im not convinced that if you remove snipers from the picture then people wont just start taking sab teams instead.

Its my belief that allowing players to stack too many low cost activations will always carry with it potential for abuse.

Seeing GAR lists with 11 activations has convinced me that all low-cost non-corps units are potentially a problem. Even something as innocuous as R2D2 is causing major problems. So of course strike teams are a problem.

FFG knows that too and I definitely think theyll do something to limit how many strike teams people can take. Making strike teams detachments of their parent unit has also been suggested as a way of limiting them.

pleasea tell us what these 11 activation lists are so that we can comment on them, you keep saying all of these 11 activation lists when most of the evidence that I have seen (Gencon) is for 8 or 9 activation lists.

There is one 11 activation list that i have found that a few people took to invader league and did well with (4 in top 8), one list, where are these other lists?

you keep mentioning loads of different 11 activation lists that are breaking the meta but i see one list, that, if it became the meta then there are plenty of ways of breaking it, mostly with vehicles as it has no impact.

Put up or shut up.

9 hours ago, 5particus said:

pleasea tell us what these 11 activation lists are so that we can comment on them, you keep saying all of these 11 activation lists when most of the evidence that I have seen (Gencon) is for 8 or 9 activation lists.

There is one 11 activation list that i have found that a few people took to invader league and did well with (4 in top 8), one list, where are these other lists?

you keep mentioning loads of different 11 activation lists that are breaking the meta but i see one list, that, if it became the meta then there are plenty of ways of breaking it, mostly with vehicles as it has no impact.

Put up or shut up.

https://www.invaderleague.com/league/season-5/season-5-single-elimination-lists

right here

the list is essentially rex, 2 units of mk2s, 4 units of mk1s, r2d2, 3 units of arc troopers

it absolutely dominated invader league. the reason it wasnt at gencon is because arctroopers werent out yet.

Quote

There is one 11 activation list that i have found that a few people took to invader league and did well with (4 in top 8), one list, where are these other lists?

then why are you saying it doesnt exist? youre contradicting yourself.

it wouldve dominated gencon just as easily as it did invader league if arctroopers had been out. but they werent.

The whole reason the list wasnt used at GENCON is because ARC TROOPERS WERENT OUT so the list couldnt be used. But that still didnt stop GAR from winning. It just stopped them from completely dominating lol.

now that arc troopers are out you will see the list way more often in local tournaments. There probably wont be any official tournaments for a while. By the time the next official tournament happens im sure theyll have nerfed that degeneracy. Before the year ends, youll probably see them remove standby token sharing and nerf strike teams.

10 hours ago, Khobai said:

https://www.invaderleague.com/league/season-5/season-5-single-elimination-lists

right here

the list is essentially rex, 2 units of mk2s, 4 units of mk1s, r2d2, 3 units of arc troopers

it absolutely dominated invader league. the reason it wasnt at gencon is because arctroopers werent out yet.

then why are you saying it doesnt exist? youre contradicting yourself.

it wouldve dominated gencon just as easily as it did invader league if arctroopers had been out. but they werent.

The whole reason the list wasnt used at GENCON is because ARC TROOPERS WERENT OUT so the list couldnt be used. But that still didnt stop GAR from winning. It just stopped them from completely dominating lol.

now that arc troopers are out you will see the list way more often in local tournaments. There probably wont be any official tournaments for a while. By the time the next official tournament happens im sure theyll have nerfed that degeneracy. Before the year ends, youll probably see them remove standby token sharing and nerf strike teams.

That is not a link to a list, it is a link to the top 64 before they moved to elimination, there are multiple lists there but the one that seems to be common amongst the top players is https://tabletopadmiral.com/legion/galactic/p32u68uEMu3auEMuEMp38uEMuEMp33u8cuEMu48uEMuEMp33u8cuEMu81uEMuEMp33u8cuEMu48uEMuEMp33u8cuEMu48uEMuEMp33u8cuEMu81uEMuEMp25uEMuEMuEMuEMp3du9euEMuEMuEMuEMuEMp3du9euEMuEMuEMuEMuEMp3du9euEMuEMuEMuEMuEMc3fc40c41c03c3ac09c08o01o03o04o08z03z04z06z07t05t06t07t08

this is Rex, R2D2, 5 phase IIs all with Z6, 2 with offensive surge and 3 with overwatch, 1 naked Phase I and 3 strike teams.

this occurs 4 times in the top 8. the fact that they are the same means that the top players have all found this list from the same place,

I see one naked Phase I, not the 4 that you are complaining about.

you keep saying that there are multiple lists that are a problem, my point is that there is ONE list (with very slight changes) that a lot of people took that is easily countered as it is completely lacking in any kind of counter to armour, It has no impact and the only critical it has is rex's surge and crit 1 on the snipers.

If you were actually any good at this game then you would have noticed this and realised the counter to it.

Even the list that you are complaining about would have that same counter, armour, a standby Z6 shot even with 2 aims is statistically likely to get only 1.75 crits and they can only surge to hits so the surge tokens are useless in this instance.

this also ignores the fact that the direct equivalent units for the rebels and Empire were not included in the tournament as there cards had not yet been spoiled, Inferno and Clan Wren are going to make a massive difference to the Rebels and imperials. everyone knows that power creep is a thing and your trying to compare factions that had the new shiny thing to factions that did not quite have them yet.

The power balance between the 4 factions is always going to be flexible and should be, you're trying to make out that GAR are way way above any of the other factions when in reality they had the new shiny stuff and the others did not. This is exactly why i said that it is way too early to judge.

Maybe learn to look at the whole instead of individual things in a vacuum

arc troopers werent at gencon . youre still going on about this?

if arc troopers were at gencon you know what you wouldve seen? total domination by GAR. thats a fact.

Quote

that is easily countered as it is completely lacking in any kind of counter to armour

then how did they beat all the other lists that used vehicles with armor? lmao.

if what youre saying was at all true, and its not, because youre wrong, then lists using armor shouldve countered them all. But for some reason they didnt. Which completely disproves what youre saying.

armor does not in fact counter them. if it did it would have. and it didnt so it doesnt.

if you look at all of the various playgroups for invader league, GAR rolled through every single playgroup. Then they went on to roll the single elimination too. It didnt matter what lists the opponent had, whether they had armor or not, it made no difference to GAR winning. GAR actually won more against the lists that brought vehicles... because it usually meant they had more activations.

if you were actually any good at this game you would realize that vehicles, with notably few exceptions, are really not that good. The lists that win tournaments are predominantly trooper lists because troopers can capture objectives and vehicles cant.

Quote

Inferno and Clan Wren are going to make a massive difference to the Rebels and imperials.

lol what?

inferno squad is one of the absolute worst imperial units. the only difference theyll make is causing imperials to lose even faster than they already do.

for 100ish points you get a crappy unit thats vastly inferior to deathtroopers (which only cost a few points more). And infiltrate is the last thing imperials want to do in the current meta where getting close to GAR means certain death.

imperials are not going to be winning tournaments anytime soon with their constantly lackluster string of new releases.