Hey ho guys,

was kinda out of touch with this thread but got back up and read through all discussions and tips. And i have settled on Niman. For everyone who is in a similiar spot I will lay down my thoughts:

Circumstances: My character is a Jedi Padawan and i want to progress to Knight, for narrative reasons. To flesh out my Character i wanted to take a Light Saberform as the third spec (rather second and Knight third).

Contestants: As mentioned i was contemplaiting Light Saber forms. The following were contestants: Makashi, Soresu, Ataru and Niman.

Now we get to the gritty Stuff: My characters Job outside of combat will be two to threefold: Co-pilot, little bit Mechanic but most of the time be a source of "Jedi-Knowledge". The last part to a degree as Kanan is to Ezra in the Rebels series. Without the necessety of my char being the Face guy (which is also bad since i will GM at least 40% of the sessions) Makashi was on the cutting board. The nail in Makashis coffin is, that we are not playing in the old republic, and that our enemies include Storm Troopers, Inquisitors Bounty HUnters and the like. For all but Inquisitors Makashi just feels bad so thats that. Next to Soresu. Soresu is supposed to be the best defensive Form (lore wise) but every defensive thing it does Niman + Knight can do better. This means the only true benefit of Soresu would be to have Int as the Lightsaber characteristic. Niman on the other Hand allows my char to aquire a higher force rating, being the better defensive Form. This plus the fact that i can cover the Jedi Teachings and mechanic stuff by talents made me cut Soresu.

So now it was down to Ataru and Niman.

Ataru being the best offensive Form (HBS + SS is insane), having the second best utility (HBS, quick strike and quick draw jump up and saber throw) and having Ataru technique. Esp. the technique is a huge plus for Ataru since piloting stealth and ranged combat are Agi based. Niman on the other hand offers the best utility (draw closer, FR, force push if check failed, sum djem and so on), it is insanely good defensively (3 ranks of parry and reflect and 2 defensive training) while it is suprisingly good offensive with draw closer, sum djem and force push. It only weaknesses (the absence of improved parry and reflect) are shored up by knight. Also Padawan has temple training which boosts the offensive capabilities and Knights saber throw adds well to the Kit.

So all in all Padawan/Niman/Knight (PNK) > Padawan/Ataru/Knight (PAK) for me. The only thing where PAK excells PNK is when fighting minion grps, since HBS and SS make them the meat grinding death spinning jedi of doom +2. In all other aspects i feel PNK is superior.

Narrative wise: I like both PNK and PAK. PNK feels much more like Kanan, Rebels Ashoka or Cal Kestis (after Ilum) while PAK feels a whole lot like Ezra or Clone Wars Ashoka, and i imagine my character to be more like Kanan or Cal after Ilum. This ultimately led to my decision. I hope my thoughts are clear, and that they are helpfull to others.

Again huge Thx to all of you.

3 hours ago, StriderZessei said:

Eh, that's a pretty narrow interpretation of the description, if I'm honest. Expanding the list to include lightsaber skills that include Force rolls brings in what, 9 abilities? That already makes it a crystal for specialists.

I think the intention was that checks involving force dice in a combat scenario could trigger the crystal.

I asked sam stewart about the niman disciple's draw closer and the free fp provided by ascetic's empty soul talent... sam stewart said it didn't work because draw closer was a force talent not a force power... so a "narrow reading" of talent vs power is rules as developer intended for draw closer and by extension hawkbat swoop.

edit: here's the verbatim question and answer

Rules Question:
Hi assuming a consular:niman-disciple/ascetic build with the draw closer (niman-disciple) and empty soul (ascetic) talents, and you have 2 or less encumbrance do the force pips "normally" added by empty soul apply to draw closer?

Hello Keith,

Draw Closer is not a Force Power check, so Empty Soul does not work with it.

Hope this helps!

4 hours ago, HeleonWoW said:

Hey ho guys,

was kinda out of touch with this thread but got back up and read through all discussions and tips. And i have settled on Niman. For everyone who is in a similiar spot I will lay down my thoughts:

Circumstances: My character is a Jedi Padawan and i want to progress to Knight, for narrative reasons. To flesh out my Character i wanted to take a Light Saberform as the third spec (rather second and Knight third).

Contestants: As mentioned i was contemplaiting Light Saber forms. The following were contestants: Makashi, Soresu, Ataru and Niman.

Now we get to the gritty Stuff: My characters Job outside of combat will be two to threefold: Co-pilot, little bit Mechanic but most of the time be a source of "Jedi-Knowledge". The last part to a degree as Kanan is to Ezra in the Rebels series. Without the necessety of my char being the Face guy (which is also bad since i will GM at least 40% of the sessions) Makashi was on the cutting board. The nail in Makashis coffin is, that we are not playing in the old republic, and that our enemies include Storm Troopers, Inquisitors Bounty HUnters and the like. For all but Inquisitors Makashi just feels bad so thats that. Next to Soresu. Soresu is supposed to be the best defensive Form (lore wise) but every defensive thing it does Niman + Knight can do better. This means the only true benefit of Soresu would be to have Int as the Lightsaber characteristic. Niman on the other Hand allows my char to aquire a higher force rating, being the better defensive Form. This plus the fact that i can cover the Jedi Teachings and mechanic stuff by talents made me cut Soresu.

So now it was down to Ataru and Niman.

Ataru being the best offensive Form (HBS + SS is insane), having the second best utility (HBS, quick strike and quick draw jump up and saber throw) and having Ataru technique. Esp. the technique is a huge plus for Ataru since piloting stealth and ranged combat are Agi based. Niman on the other hand offers the best utility (draw closer, FR, force push if check failed, sum djem and so on), it is insanely good defensively (3 ranks of parry and reflect and 2 defensive training) while it is suprisingly good offensive with draw closer, sum djem and force push. It only weaknesses (the absence of improved parry and reflect) are shored up by knight. Also Padawan has temple training which boosts the offensive capabilities and Knights saber throw adds well to the Kit.

So all in all Padawan/Niman/Knight (PNK) > Padawan/Ataru/Knight (PAK) for me. The only thing where PAK excells PNK is when fighting minion grps, since HBS and SS make them the meat grinding death spinning jedi of doom +2. In all other aspects i feel PNK is superior.

Narrative wise: I like both PNK and PAK. PNK feels much more like Kanan, Rebels Ashoka or Cal Kestis (after Ilum) while PAK feels a whole lot like Ezra or Clone Wars Ashoka, and i imagine my character to be more like Kanan or Cal after Ilum. This ultimately led to my decision. I hope my thoughts are clear, and that they are helpfull to others.

Again huge Thx to all of you.

You can kind of balance out the meat grinding aspect by getting a the PNK a double bladed saber (which has linked 1), in this case you want your starting attributes to be 3 in brawn agility intellect and willpower, 2's in the rest. The 3 agility is because a double bladed lightsaber has unwieldy 3.

45 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

You can kind of balance out the meat grinding aspect by getting a the PNK a double bladed saber (which has linked 1), in this case you want your starting attributes to be 3 in brawn agility intellect and willpower, 2's in the rest. The 3 agility is because a double bladed lightsaber has unwieldy 3.

Already thought about that and these are exactly my stats

11 minutes ago, HeleonWoW said:

Already thought about that and these are exactly my stats

Good choice. If you weren't going to do the double bladed saber you might want to try 3 cunning instead of the 3 agility, and use enhance to boost agility to 6 by committing your 4 force dice whenever you needed fly shoot or stealth... but since you have the double bladed saber with unwieldy 3 you don't want to be committing force dice before going into personal combat.

9 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I asked sam stewart about the niman disciple's draw closer and the free fp provided by ascetic's empty soul talent... sam stewart said it didn't work because draw closer was a force talent not a force power... so a "narrow reading" of talent vs power is rules as developer intended for draw closer and by extension hawkbat swoop.

Far be it from me to contradict one of the devs, but the FaD rulebook plainly states that a Force power check is "rolling a number of Force dice and using the results to generate Force points. The character can spend these to activate and enhance abilities in a variety of ways, as described in the individual Force power or Force talent." (p. 280)

So, while powers and talents aren't the same thing, any time a character generates Force pips, it's considered a 'Force power check', because the user is drawing on, or being 'powered' by, the Force.

18 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Far be it from me to contradict one of the devs, but the FaD rulebook plainly states that a Force power check is "rolling a number of Force dice and using the results to generate Force points. The character can spend these to activate and enhance abilities in a variety of ways, as described in the individual Force power or Force talent." (p. 280)

So, while powers and talents aren't the same thing, any time a character generates Force pips, it's considered a 'Force power check', because the user is drawing on, or being 'powered' by, the Force.

Dev ruling is dev ruling.

But there are force powers that involve committing vs rolling dice so rolling force dice can't be the definition of a force power.

But there is an easy way around this, buy the ebb basic power.... you can use a force pip to activate the danite crystal instead of ebb/flow. Unless specified otherwise you can't multiple activate a quality so if you get 2 extra force pips spend one on ebb/flow. Btw with Hawkbat swoop you can generate advantage that can be used to recover strain on a 1 for 1 basis so ebb/flow just helps you with every other check, and lets you use danite on Hawkbat swoop.

With 5 xp and a mentor you make it RAW.