2 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

You don't have to take any form to be good at killing things with lightsabers.

If you already have three lighsaber specialists, you might want to diversify and go into different, non-combat trees.

Ataru and niman-disciple help you do other things... ataru through agility being the dominant stat (shooting flying stealth), niman-disciple gives you social talents like sense emotions and nobody's fool, willpower boosts discipline (making and resisting force power, coercion, vigilance as casual observations) and an extra force die can make you better at a lot of skills (enhance, influence, manipulate, farsight, maybe others)

But you could also go for half-lightsaber specs... arbiter, armorer, sentry, padawan-survivor, force sensitive outcast, since martial artist and steelhand adept have parry you might even count them.

Thx for the suggestions but i want to have a LS Form as 2nd or third spec. (Knight and Padawan being the other two)

Take Juyo Berserker if you really must take a LS form that wasn't chosen by other players. This spec doesn't seem to be appreciated on this forum and very rarely suggested. Imo, I think it's better than Ataru for delivering damage without Ataru's glass canon flaw. But with some darkside talents that add flavour to a character rather than being a flaw.

Soresu is very good too. The only spec with the Supreme Parry talent and the 6 rank of Parry to buy. With those already bought in the Padawan and Knight specs, your character will be nearly impossible to hit in melee. And will be able to regularly to riposte and damage his opponents.

9 hours ago, WolfRider said:

Take Juyo Berserker if you really must take a LS form that wasn't chosen by other players. This spec doesn't seem to be appreciated on this forum and very rarely suggested. Imo, I think it's better than Ataru for delivering damage without Ataru's glass canon flaw. But with some darkside talents that add flavour to a character rather than being a flaw.

Soresu is very good too. The only spec with the Supreme Parry talent and the 6 rank of Parry to buy. With those already bought in the Padawan and Knight specs, your character will be nearly impossible to hit in melee. And will be able to regularly to riposte and damage his opponents.

Juyo is crit monster not a damage dealer and the weaknesses of a crit build is having to get a single point past soak, it's got 2 ranks of quick strike which helps during the first round if you go before your opponent. On the basis of durability, a jedi ataru and niman-disciple each have 3 ranks of parry and reflect, niman also has a toughened and 2 ranks of defensive training. Juyo has 3 ranks of parry no reflect plus a toughened. Whether that makes juyo more or less of a glass canon than ataru is up for debate. Aturu's strength and weakness is strain management... saberswarm cost strain (in addition to advantage to use) but the extra advantage from Hawkbat swoop can be used to recover strain

16 hours ago, HeleonWoW said:

Thx for the suggestions but i want to have a LS Form as 2nd or third spec. (Knight and Padawan being the other two)

Niman-disciple is the form that pairs best with knight... actually niman-disciple is the form that pairs best with most things because it's the second best offensively, best defensively and has the most utility, it's a great well rounded/well balanced form. It's limited deficiencies are not having improved reflect or parry (only 2 forms and sentry and knight have improved reflect) and knight patches that nicely.

On 10/9/2020 at 12:52 AM, EliasWindrider said:

Juyo is crit monster not a damage dealer and the weaknesses of a crit build is having to get a single point past soak

So for you crit is not damage ? Could you explain why ?

With a lightsaber's breach quality it isn't a problem to pass soak. Or perhaps I'm wrong when I let the breach quality negate 10pts of soak ?

3 hours ago, WolfRider said:

So for you crit is not damage ? Could you explain why ?

With a lightsaber's breach quality it isn't a problem to pass soak. Or perhaps I'm wrong when I let the breach quality negate 10pts of soak ?

It depends on what you mean by damage. A crit doesn't deal any additional wounds.

You are using Breach correctly, though Breach does not pass Cortosis, something that requires a high damage under the right circumstances.

The benefit of a crit-heavy build compared to a damage-heavy build is that you can sometimes outright kill an opponent before they are anywhere near their WT, and you can certainly greatly inhibit them through lucky crit results.

The benefit of a damage-heavy build is that you are able to consistently eliminate opponents without relying on friendly percentile dice.

4 hours ago, WolfRider said:

So for you crit is not damage ? Could you explain why ?

With a lightsaber's breach quality it isn't a problem to pass soak. Or perhaps I'm wrong when I let the breach quality negate 10pts of soak ?

Crit is damage against minion (kills a minion) . Otherwise roll a percentile to determine a random "impairment" it doesn't move a PC or nemesis up towards their wound threshold.

The lightsaber has to get past parry and deal at least 1 point of damage, which if the opponent has peerless interception is not guaranteed. If we're talking a dip into padawan (top 2 rows and right column except for danger sense, and maybe the 15 xp parry), most of knight, and niman disciple, it a fr of 4, probably a melee defense of 4 (2 from armor, 2 from defensive training), your looking at 4 to 7 ranks of parry so 10 to 13 points of damage is being stopped by parry (when peerless interception is active). So assuming the juyo berseker has a tricked out saber with say 9 to 11 base damage you need anywhere between 1 and 5 uncancelled successes plus one to 3 advantage to deal 1 point of damage and crit and then the percentile dice have to be in your favor

If the juyo berseker has peerless interception and the auto parry and auto crit upgrade it's a little easier but against the above combo with draw closer adding damage and a dragite gem (assuming 2 free advantage from fine tuned emitter and superior) you've already been concussive 2'd/staggered for the next 2 rounds so you won't be making attacks yourself. Yeah you can still auto improved parry thanks to peerless interception but you'll drop before they do.

3 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

The lightsaber has to get past parry and deal at least 1 point of damage, which if the opponent has peerless interception is not guaranteed. If we're talking a dip into padawan (top 2 rows and right column except for danger sense, and maybe the 15 xp parry), most of knight, and niman disciple, it a fr of 4, probably a melee defense of 4 (2 from armor, 2 from defensive training), your looking at 4 to 7 ranks of parry so 10 to 13 points of damage is being stopped by parry (when peerless interception is active). So assuming the juyo berseker has a tricked out saber with say 9 to 11 base damage you need anywhere between 1 and 5 uncancelled successes plus one to 3 advantage to deal 1 point of damage and crit and then the percentile dice have to be in your favor

You're assuming a lot there. An NPC might have 5 ranks of Parry and that's it. No Peerless Interception, nothing built through spec trees, just a few ranks in the talent.

If that is the case, then they block 7 damage. If you have a decent lightsaber, you'll get past that every time, whether by a little or by a lot.

11 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

You're assuming a lot there. An NPC might have 5 ranks of Parry and that's it. No Peerless Interception, nothing built through spec trees, just a few ranks in the talent.

If that is the case, then they block 7 damage. If you have a decent lightsaber, you'll get past that every time, whether by a little or by a lot.

The context of this thread is to compare alternative builds padawan+knight + a lightsaber form, so padawan and knight are a given for THIS discussion. The assumption of peerless interception on top of knight is not a stretch of the imagination. For this discussion I was recommending comboing in niman he was recommending comboing in juyo.

Just now, EliasWindrider said:

The context of this thread is to compare alternative builds padawan+knight + a lightsaber form, so padawan and knight are a given for THIS discussion. The assumption of peerless interception on top of knight is not a stretch of the imagination. For this discussion I was recommending comboing in niman he was recommending comboing in juyo.

But he's not going to be fighting other PCs, he's going to be fighting NPCs.

8 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

But he's not going to be fighting other PCs, he's going to be fighting NPCs.

Eventually he's going to come across a sith lord or lightsaber using apprentice such as ventress and peerless interception is the only way in the game for one character to withstand a party of PCs

Edit: only way other than cortosis armor and a wise GM doesn't give NPCs gear he /she doesn't want his/her PCs to have. A lightsaber saber wielding force sensitive character with cortosis armor is one of the few things that break the game. I don't allow that combo in my game PCs can have at most 2 of those 3 things.

Also I don't think that I've ever been in a star wars rpg with 2 or more jedi PCs where one of them didn't flirt with the darkside so PvP isn't off the table.

To much "if" in @EliasWindrider answer. And "if" my aunt had a pair I'd call her uncle.

I don't understand a way of thinking that prefers to inflict wounds rather than crits directly. For me a spec with talents that allow you trigger easily a roll on the crit table, is the best option for a melee / lightsaber combat oriented character. Especially if that character has the Jedi career, so use Brawn as the attribute for lightsaber rolls, I think a lightsaber form spec based on Brawn fits better than another one based on Agility or Willpower. That's why I recommended Juyo Berserker as an alternative for Niman Disciple and Ataru Stricker.

Another reason is that one of PCs in my current F&D campaign is a Warrior who spent 200 xp in Juyo berserker, 150 xp in Steel Hand, the rest of her 500 xps (150 from knight level + 350 earned in game) were spent in raising Lightsaber and discipline to 4 and in some other skills, buying some Force Power, including Enhance for the Force Jump. She used her 2 Dedications to raise Brawn and Willpower to 4. That means she rolls Discipline and Lightsabber check at 4 yellow dice. A true killing machine when fighting erupt. A lot less useful for diplomacy. But she's a Mandalorian Human who prefer talk with her lightsaber than her mouth. 😁

1 hour ago, WolfRider said:

To much "if" in @EliasWindrider answer. And "if" my aunt had a pair I'd call her uncle.

I don't understand a way of thinking that prefers to inflict wounds rather than crits directly. For me a spec with talents that allow you trigger easily a roll on the crit table, is the best option for a melee / lightsaber combat oriented character. Especially if that character has the Jedi career, so use Brawn as the attribute for lightsaber rolls, I think a lightsaber form spec based on Brawn fits better than another one based on Agility or Willpower. That's why I recommended Juyo Berserker as an alternative for Niman Disciple and Ataru Stricker.

Another reason is that one of PCs in my current F&D campaign is a Warrior who spent 200 xp in Juyo berserker, 150 xp in Steel Hand, the rest of her 500 xps (150 from knight level + 350 earned in game) were spent in raising Lightsaber and discipline to 4 and in some other skills, buying some Force Power, including Enhance for the Force Jump. She used her 2 Dedications to raise Brawn and Willpower to 4. That means she rolls Discipline and Lightsabber check at 4 yellow dice. A true killing machine when fighting erupt. A lot less useful for diplomacy. But she's a Mandalorian Human who prefer talk with her lightsaber than her mouth. 😁

I don't get the 'too much "if"' when he OP asked what lightsaber form spec to pair with padawan and knight. Whether or not you like the premise of the question, i directly answered the asked question. If your juyo answer depends on the absence of padawan/knight/peerless interception... it's not a great fit to the asked question.

For what it's worth, I'd rather spend my 4 advantage to hit twice more with my base 12 damage saber vs getting a +30 crit roll.

44 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

For what it's worth, I'd rather spend my 4 advantage to hit twice more with my base 12 damage saber vs getting a +30 crit roll.

Under normal circumstances I'd agree with you, but again peerless interception with the strain upgrade is the counter. Blocking 11 to 13 damage per hit for a total of 3 strain per round, largely blunts Hawkbat swoop and saberswarm as well. 😎

56 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Under normal circumstances I'd agree with you, but again peerless interception with the strain upgrade is the counter. Blocking 11 to 13 damage per hit for a total of 3 strain per round, largely blunts Hawkbat swoop and saberswarm as well. 😎

Of course. I'm just referring to my stance on wound-dealing vs. crits.

I am curious what your thoughts are on the Reflex Grip for a PC who already has Peerless Int and FR 3.

1 hour ago, StriderZessei said:

Of course. I'm just referring to my stance on wound-dealing vs. crits.

I am curious what your thoughts are on the Reflex Grip for a PC who already has Peerless Int and FR 3.

I'm away from book so does reflex grip reduce the cost of reflect or increase the stopped damage by 1 for 1 more strain? Either way I'd say it still worked.

38 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I'm away from book so does reflex grip reduce the cost of reflect or increase the stopped damage by 1 for 1 more strain? Either way I'd say it still worked.

+1 strain for +1 Parry/Reflect, mods for +1 defensive and deflective.

Raising the strain cost kinda scares me as an Ataru, even with a saber that has a Dantari crystal, Superior, and a Fine-Tuned Emitter.

1 hour ago, StriderZessei said:

+1 strain for +1 Parry/Reflect, mods for +1 defensive and deflective.

Raising the strain cost kinda scares me as an Ataru, even with a saber that has a Dantari crystal, Superior, and a Fine-Tuned Emitter.

Look at the etan (sp?) crystal think it grants a rank parry and reflect.

Damage isn't particularly impressive but pair it with a tholian heartwood hilt and your good. I actually think the tholian Heartwood hilt is cheese but ymmv.

59 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Look at the etan (sp?) crystal think it grants a rank parry and reflect.

Damage isn't particularly impressive but pair it with a tholian heartwood hilt and your good. I actually think the tholian Heartwood hilt is cheese but ymmv.

Appreciate it, but I'm going dantari all the way. I need the strain recovery.

4 hours ago, StriderZessei said:

Appreciate it, but I'm going dantari all the way. I need the strain recovery.

Have you tried the ebb/flow power with the control strain upgrade? "Every" check becomes a force power check and opportunity to recover strain. I put ebb/flow in almost every force sensitive build now

At 1 strain per pip rolled, correct?

2 hours ago, StriderZessei said:

At 1 strain per pip rolled, correct?

Yes. And you get to use it on every check (I personally disallow it on knowledge checks... so characters can't recover strain just by thinking)

@StriderZessei the dantari crystal doesn't say multiple fo can be spent in this way

Whereas upgrades to force powers can be activated multiple times unless otherwise indicated.

If you only have 1 leftover fp on a forcepower check obviously a danite crystal is a better but a dantari crystal only works when making a force power check as part of a combat check, so move, unleash, harm, bind, enhance for brawl, etc. Fotce TALENTS like Hawkbat swoop don't qualify. If you get the ebb flow basic power, then every check (including combat checks) become a force power check.

11 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

@StriderZessei the dantari crystal doesn't say multiple fo can be spent in this way

Whereas upgrades to force powers can be activated multiple times unless otherwise indicated.

If you only have 1 leftover fp on a forcepower check obviously a danite crystal is a better but a dantari crystal only works when making a force power check as part of a combat check, so move, unleash, harm, bind, enhance for brawl, etc. Fotce TALENTS like Hawkbat swoop don't qualify. If you get the ebb flow basic power, then every check (including combat checks) become a force power check.

Eh, that's a pretty narrow interpretation of the description, if I'm honest. Expanding the list to include lightsaber skills that include Force rolls brings in what, 9 abilities? That already makes it a crystal for specialists.

I think the intention was that checks involving force dice in a combat scenario could trigger the crystal.