Help with Padawan/Knight/Lightsaberform Build

By HeleonWoW, in Star Wars: Force and Destiny RPG

Hey guys. as the title says i need a little bit with the plans for my character.

To give a little context. Our campaign is set shortly, i.e. a couple of years, ater the great Jedi purge. To be exact one year after the empire attacked the Mon Cala. Our Characters are a Jedi Padawan (me), a Warrior Starfighter Ace (our pilot), a Sentry Shadow and a Mystic Seer. In the long run every character wil want wield a lightsaber and learn a lightsaber form. This is were i am not certain which form to take with my character. Right now i am contemplaiting whether to spec into Makashi or Ataru. Im pretty sure that i can rule out Niman and Shien as those to are likely to be taken by our Seer (who wants to be a kind of force wizard) and our Shadow (the Technician). Im also pretty sure our pilot wants to go down the ataru road since he has a 4 in agi.

Right now i have 3s in Agi, Brawn, Willpower and Pr as i liked a more well rounded approach to my stats and thresholds. With the arguments above aswell as my stats i have narrowed my "lightsaber form choice pool" down to Niman. Makashi, and Ataru. The percs of the specs aswell as their drawbacks, i.e. Ataru being a glass canon and Makashi being a lightsaber dueling spec, are clear to me. What i am contemplaining is more of a narrative vs. composition thing, if this makes sense. Makashi opens my Character up to being the on guy kkeping the Inquisitor occupied (our campaign will be centered around the inquisitorius) while other can do their job. Ataru opens me up to be much more of a meat grinder. The narrative benefit of Ataru would be that our grp could find a holocron of Yoda or even meet him in order to teach Ataru to my character and our pilot, while Makshi could fit better from a group composition standpoint.

So im interested in your thoughts guys, and pls excuse my whacky grammar as im not a native speaker.

Edited by HeleonWoW

Honestly, I would stay in the Jedi Career and take Knight. It's got a lot of good generalist Lightsaber Specs, AND a Force Rating, AND a Dedication. It's ideal for a generalist like you.

Ataru is the best lightsaber form and has the second best utility (because there are a lot of useful skill that depend on agility (shooting, flying, stealth)

Niman-disciple is the second best lightsaber form, and has the most utility. Coupling niman-disciple with knight mitigates the few shortcomings of niman (needing improved parry and improved reflect)

The jedi career's signature ability (peerless interception) is the only counter in the game to the ataru striker's saberswarm and the warriors unmatched ferocity (with unmatched ferocity you can play rocket tag against an ataru striker, but that's not a counter).

Niman-disciple is the form with the best shot of getting past peerless interception because of bonus damage from draw closer.

The 4 best attributes in the game are willpower brawn agility and intellect (for crafting). If a force sensitive character has to focus one of those they should sacrifice agility because with the enhance power (upgrade at the bottom of the left column) you can commit any number of your force dice to boost your agility by an equal amount. It costs an action to commit the force die. The exception to this is if ataru striker in your lightsaber form, then ditch intellect if you have to ditch one of those for.

Low presence can be compensated for through the influence force power (shortest path to the control skills upgrade).

With niman-disciple you have a good shot of going first because of high willpower and therefore vigilance. With the constant vigilance talent which is easy to get in padawan survivor spec (dawn of rebellion universal spec) you can always use vigilance for initiative. Willpower is also useful for discipline and therefore using and resisting force powers, resisting fear effects, and the coercion skill. Niman provides the extra force die.

For a three spec jedi build involving niman-disciple and knight, expect to need about 1200 xp to approach the broad capability of a movie protagonist jedi *knight* (anakin or obiwan in attack of the clones). Add a few hundred xp to reach the broad capability for any other lightsaber form.

Intelligence 3 with 3 ranks in mechanics gets you 3 yellow dice with an average of 10 to 20 attempts to craft a standard lightsaber you can get a successful check with 2 triumph and 3 advantage to get you an extra hard point, personalized design and fine tuned emitter. Personalized design and fine tuned emitter is better than spending 2 triumph on inbuilt attachment to get superior because they grant the same bonus and stack with superior which you can purchase later for 5K credits. The cost of the the 10 to 20 attempts is 2x100 +8x50 or 18x50, because you can reforge a hilt to reduce the cost by half. You the 2x100 is because you always keep the best hilt you've made so far and reforge the second best in case you need to terminate early. Of course one of your team mates might want to but your second best hilt instead of you reforging it.

To get an approximation of newly minted jedi knight as fast as possible starting padawan you can beeline for force rating (better to go through valuable facts then sense danger) then go down to dedication and switch over to knight and bee line for improved reflect. Ok to get other talents you like in the top 2 rows of padawan but it delays you. For force powers you probably want sense (left column except for bottom talent) and the right column of enhance (especially the as a maneuver, because then you can use force leap 3 times in a round 2x as maneuver and 1x as action, to get you to anywhere within extreme range in 1 round). Ok to get base move power early but don't start buying move upgrades until you have FR 3. You need 2 force pips do do anything useful with move (base power and an upgrade)

Edited by EliasWindrider

Fad Core only or all books?

Conflict talents allowed?

Are you factoring gear and/or Force powers?

What are you wanting to avoid?

My biggest piece of advice is to make sure that, if you want to use a form that uses a characteristic other than Brawn (Ataru=Agility, Soresu=Int, etc.), you can start planning to build up that characteristic on the way.

Myself, I really like the way that the Jedi career's Peerless Interception and the Padawan/Knight's ranks in in Parry, Deflect, Toughened, and Grit all shore up the Ataru's biggest drawback: its glass cannon nature. Myself, being a filthy weeb, instead of mimicking Yoda's whirling dervish take on Ataru, I flavor it more like the classic samurai 'dashing slash that goes past' attack:

If going Ataru, try picking up Ebb/Flow and a Dantari Crystal. It will offset the strain cost.

I like Juyo on offence and Niman or Shien on defense myself. Got a couple other combos I like to use.

16 minutes ago, Lord Dust said:

If going Ataru, try picking up Ebb/Flow and a Dantari Crystal. It will offset the strain cost.

I like Juyo on offence and Niman or Shien on defense myself. Got a couple other combos I like to use.

The advantage from Hawkbat swoop can be used to recover strain, so ataru striker actually has pretty good strain recovery, but definitely worth getting ebb flow for almost any build (including ataru)

Personally for a character who started s Jedi Padawan, I'll pick Knight as 2nd spec and then Master as 3rd. And only then I'll consider choosing a lightsaber spec.

But if the OP is set on taking a lightsaber spec as his 2nd spec, and with a game tha'll focus on fighting the Inquisotorius, Makashi Duellist seems a good choice.

And Yoda can teach any of the 7 lightsaber forms. He's one of the very few Jedi known to be a master of all forms.

Hi Guys first and foremost thank you for all replies. I have talked to the rest of the group and most of us have settled our planning. And i made a mistake in my first post regarding the stats of my character:

its: Agi, Int, Brawn and Will 3 rest 2.

My plans go something like this: Padawan -> Ataru -> Knight. Reasons for this: HBS sounds darn funny and the narrative of me and the pilot having the same sword master is appealing to both of us so this is settled. Knight as a career is something i would like to achiev so taking it immediatly feels kinda wrong.

Plans for Force powers: Ebb/Flow, maybe Enhance and Bind (houseruled to function more or less like Kylo stopping blaster bolts and Cal Kestis "Timestop")

Right now i am in the Padawan tree working on FR: 2 and plan on going down to the padawan sig abilities like temple training. Since we wont get the chance to learn LS Forms in the next 3-4 Sessions (they are already fleshed out pretty much) i am also trying to get Dedication to inc. Agi and then go into Ataru.

A few questions on Lightsabers and the crystals. We are close to finishing our first adventure. The players found a holocron and materials needed for hilts. In the next adventure I plan to give them possibility to find crystals (iif they choose to do they are taking several risks so they have to "earn" their lightsabers). Should they only have the possibility to earn "standard" LS Crystals or should they be somekind of special ones (like the Dantary or stuff)

Next question regarding rules: Would the link attribute from a dualblade LS and atarus saberswarm stack?

Hold on... are you both the GM and a player (which there are many horror stories about, I don't e experienced them first hand) or are you rotating GMing duties (which might be able to work)?

Personally I'd be more interested in filling out the top 2 rows of padawan and then banking xp for when ataru striker becomes available, but...

Also temple training is not a signature ability, it's just a talent. Signature abilities attack to the bottom of a talent tree, but you have to have taken both anchor point talents in the bottom row. The jedi signature ability, peerless interception, is intended to attach to knight (because knight is the tree that provides the talents, improved parry and improved reflect, needed to make most of the upgrades work. Peerless interception is in collapse of the republic.

12 hours ago, HeleonWoW said:

A few questions on Lightsabers and the crystals. We are close to finishing our first adventure. The players found a holocron and materials needed for hilts. In the next adventure I plan to give them possibility to find crystals (iif they choose to do they are taking several risks so they have to "earn" their lightsabers). Should they only have the possibility to earn "standard" LS Crystals or should they be somekind of special ones (like the Dantary or stuff)

There is a lot to go over here.

Depending on Legends or Canon what is stranded changes. Adagan vs Kyber and a lot of other stuff that will bog down the discussion. I will summerize.

Lore:The Jedi had their own Crystal Mine. Most Jedi get there first crystal there. Most Jedi use their first crystal most of their careers. This leads to Illum crystals being most seen as common/average. Truth is a wide variety of planets produce crystals with different qualities. If players want crystals it is their prerogative to look. Black market gem trade, go to the source, ask the holacron.

Mechanics: The Illum Crystal is the base template from all other crystal are derived.It has been reskinned at least once and if you want a basic crystal, just reskinit again.

12 hours ago, HeleonWoW said:

Next question regarding rules: Would the link attribute from a dualblade LS and atarus saberswarm stack?

No. Saber Swarm sets a Linked rating, not add it. Example Force rating 3 on duel blade. You have Linked 1 from Duel blade and Linked 3 from Saber Swarm. You can use only one linked Quality.

On 9/5/2020 at 5:40 PM, EliasWindrider said:

The advantage from Hawkbat swoop can be used to recover strain, so ataru striker actually has pretty good strain recovery, but definitely worth getting ebb flow for almost any build (including ataru)

Does that work if you are already Engaged? I ask because you have to move to your target for it to work.

46 minutes ago, Lord Dust said:

There is a lot to go over here.

Depending on Legends or Canon what is stranded changes. Adagan vs Kyber and a lot of other stuff that will bog down the discussion. I will summerize.

Lore:The Jedi had their own Crystal Mine. Most Jedi get there first crystal there. Most Jedi use their first crystal most of their careers. This leads to Illum crystals being most seen as common/average. Truth is a wide variety of planets produce crystals with different qualities. If players want crystals it is their prerogative to look. Black market gem trade, go to the source, ask the holacron.

Mechanics: The Illum Crystal is the base template from all other crystal are derived.It has been reskinned at least once and if you want a basic crystal, just reskinit again.

No. Saber Swarm sets a Linked rating, not add it. Example Force rating 3 on duel blade. You have Linked 1 from Duel blade and Linked 3 from Saber Swarm. You can use only one linked Quality.

Does that work if you are already Engaged? I ask because you have to move to your target for it to work.

Yes per dev clarification it works when engaged as does draw closer

2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Yes per dev clarification it works when engaged as does draw closer

Ok. Source please.

Regarding the point of me being the GM and me having PC. I know that this could be a problem. But it wasnt in 15+ years of playing role playing games like the dark eye (a german rpg) and other systems, so i think it wont be one here. Future plan is when we are all familiar with the system to rotate the GM duty and see how it works.

One final question on Dual wielding: i get that an attack with two weapons at the same time comes with its penalties. How is it if my char wields one offensive and one defensive LS and only attacks with the offensive one. Would that count as a dual wielding attack from a rule stand point?

2 hours ago, HeleonWoW said:

One final question on Dual wielding: i get that an attack with two weapons at the same time comes with its penalties. How is it if my char wields one offensive and one defensive LS and only attacks with the offensive one. Would that count as a dual wielding attack from a rule stand point?

No. If you're only attacking with one weapon you don't have to use the rules for dual-wielding.

9 hours ago, HeleonWoW said:

One final question on Dual wielding: i get that an attack with two weapons at the same time comes with its penalties. How is it if my char wields one offensive and one defensive LS and only attacks with the offensive one. Would that count as a dual wielding attack from a rule stand point?

The penalty only applies if attacking with 2+ weapons, not holding.

18 hours ago, Lord Dust said:

Ok. Source please.

The ability itself says that the user MAY spend a force pip to move into engaged range, not MUST.

And nowhere is it said the ability must be used at a certain range.

18 hours ago, Lord Dust said:

Ok. Source please.

Check the dev answered questions thread in the eote forum, it's long and I don't know which page.

2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Check the dev answered questions thread in the eote forum, it's long and I don't know which page.

I looked and couldn't find it. May have just missed it though.

But yes, I concur with your analysis. To further back it up, it says "a target within Short range" not "a target at Short range." Engaged is within Short range.

8 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I looked and couldn't find it. May have just missed it though.

But yes, I concur with your analysis. To further back it up, it says "a target within Short range" not "a target at Short range." Engaged is within Short range.

The confusion comes from the last line of the talent.
"If the character can not move to engage the target, the attack automatically misses." FaD Core, Talents Pg.144

move to engage vs move to Engaged and the use of reserved words.

This ruling is not in an ettera document?

Buildwise, would it make sense to have a dualbladed Light saber and dedicate the force points into ebb/flow and also have the linked quality from the lightsaber or is it better to just have saber swarm active with 2+ force points dedicated to it

4 hours ago, Lord Dust said:

The confusion comes from the last line of the talent.
"If the character can not move to engage the target, the attack automatically misses." FaD Core, Talents Pg.144

move to engage vs move to Engaged and the use of reserved words.

This ruling is not in an ettera document?

If you cannot move to engage the character, then you are out of range. If you are already engaged, you're fine. It could have been stated a bit more clearly though.

16 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

If you cannot move to engage the character, then you are out of range. If you are already engaged, you're fine. It could have been stated a bit more clearly though.

Wait, I think missing something very basic here.
1. The Talent targets an enemy in Short range.
2. Then adds Force Rating to the roll.
3. Roll dice.
4. Allows [Force Plip] to be spent to add [Hit] or [Advantage] to the roll
5. Has a built in engagement/movement option to use [Force Plip] to move from Short to Engaged range, as an Incidental.
6. Then the Talent checks if the character moved to engage the enemy.
7. Calculate damage.

Am I missing a step or am I using the wrong definition for engage?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/engage
Intransitive Verb definition 3
"to enter into conflict or battle"
If this is the definition, can a character engage a character they are already fighting and Engaged with?

I know Fantasy Flight has issues with grammar, and this Talent hinges on its grammar.

I could not find the Dev clarification in the mega thread.

I am probably overthinking this, but thank you for the help.

19 hours ago, HeleonWoW said:

Buildwise, would it make sense to have a dualbladed Light saber and dedicate the force points into ebb/flow and also have the linked quality from the lightsaber or is it better to just have saber swarm active with 2+ force points dedicated to it

I don not understand what you mean. The "Saber Swarm active with 2+ force points dedicated to it" is losing me. Could you please clarify?

7 hours ago, Lord Dust said:

Wait, I think missing something very basic here.
1. The Talent targets an enemy in Short range.
2. Then adds Force Rating to the roll.
3. Roll dice.
4. Allows [Force Plip] to be spent to add [Hit] or [Advantage] to the roll
5. Has a built in engagement/movement option to use [Force Plip] to move from Short to Engaged range, as an Incidental.
6. Then the Talent checks if the character moved to engage the enemy.
7. Calculate damage.

I am probably overthinking this, but thank you for the help.

You really are.

  1. It says within Short range (entry 2). If I'm 10 feet away from you, I am within Extreme range on the planetary-scale. I am also within Long, Medium, etc.
  2. Technically you add Force dice no greater than Force rating, and you have to account for any Force dice previously committed.
  3. Yep.
  4. You may spend a Force pip to add Advantage to the check.
  5. Yep.
  6. No, it checks if the character was unable to move to engaged. This is important because if you are already engaged, you don't need to move.
  7. Yep.

As for "engage" it is important to note that this is a game-term and its definition cannot truly be found in the dictionary.