TL;DR: Gatekeeper is PC's mother. Would the gatekeeper recognize her daughter?

Long version:
I'm starting an FaD game with two PCs, both Force sensitives (as you may have guessed). One is the daughter of two Jedi who died in Order 66 (but she doesn't know this yet, just that her biological parents were poor spacers who were killed by pirates), the other is her adoptive brother and just happens to be Force sensitive.

I admit I was skimming from Spintiir for a lot of this idea, but it's a rural world with an extremely small population. Concealed in a valley is a long-since abandoned Jedi academy/retreat, abandoned long before the world was settled. Just before the Clone Wars, the PC's mother went on a "meditative retreat" to have her baby, using the academy as her excuse/reason for going to the planet. After having her baby, the Clone Wars broke out and she was recalled to Coruscant. She gave her daughter up for adoption to a family on the world, giving her daughter her necklace which has a tiny piece of kyber integrated into the pendant. (Parents know their adopted child's history, but they aren't telling)

Jump to the present day (plus a few sessions that haven't happened yet), and the PCs discover this Jedi structure and eventually, the holocron inside. They manage to unlock the holocron using the necklace and the girl instinctively recognizes the gatekeeper as... her mother!

So here's where I run into a snag. I've looked into several threads on the topic, but wasn't able to find a satisfying answer.

The main question is: Would the gatekeeper recognize the girl as her daughter?

Before you say "Do what the story needs," that's a bit of an issue.

There are a couple ways I can see it going, both interesting with their own different side effects and I'm not sure which to choose:

1. Yes. The implications here are obvious. Bittersweet reunion, etc. etc. Interesting dynamic to say the least.
2. No. The gatekeeper doesn't recognize the girl at all, as it is merely a holographic AI there to impart knowledge. While it can interact with the PCs almost like a person, it doesn't actually hold anything more than the Jedi gave it, which only extends to knowledge of (fill in the blank once my players know what they want). This would be emotionally painful for the daughter, and an interesting dynamic to play out.

So my questions to you are these: Does one make more sense than the other, would the gatekeeper even recognize the PC, and do you have any suggestions beyond this?

As for "would the mother have even been able to make a holocron that advanced?" I'm going with that while she was a prodigy in skills and Force-abilities, she found much difficulty in avoiding attachments and struggled with emotional connections.

Cool idea. I can see this being a really fun premise either way.

My personal view of Holocrons is that they only have the information that their creator deliberately imparted to it. As such, The major question for me in this is "When was this holocron created?".

16 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

After having her baby, the Clone Wars broke out and she was recalled to Coruscant. She gave her daughter up for adoption to a family on the world, giving her daughter her necklace which has a tiny piece of kyber integrated into the pendant.

cool, makes sense.

17 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Jump to the present day ... They manage to unlock the holocron using the necklace

Ok, so hold up. Was the holocron designed to be opened with that crystal? If so, would the holocron have been created before, during or after the mother's time on Spintiir? If after, how would that work if the mother doesn't have the crystal? Did she have a matching one? Is that relevant?

The next question is why the holocron was created. If made after and made to be opened with the crystal, is it specifically for her daughter? does it contain information purely for her? If made before, it surely wouldn't have any knowledge of her daughter. Even if it housed all of a person's knowledge at the time of creation, it wouldn't know of her yet.

Love the concept. I realize I probably haven't been that helpful and have raised more questions than answered, but please post answers if you have them.

Personally, I think the "No" option offers the most drama and tension, especially if the PC comes to recognize the gatekeeper without the gatekeeper "recognizing" her. You could have the "mother" talk to her daughter as an equal without ever having the capacity to internalize and understand the concept that the student is in fact her daughter. You could also have the gatekeeper playing some power games hoping to manipulate the holocron student into seeking out the lost daughter (i.e. herself) and investigate what happened with her and her family back in the day (especially if there's some tragedy and mystery and plot burried there somewhere).

(I'm tired and my mind won't let me express this elegantly, but I trust you understand what I mean).

In any case, it's definitely an interesting premise you've got here, @P-47 Thunderbolt

2 minutes ago, angelman2 said:

You could also have the gatekeeper playing some power games hoping to manipulate the holocron student into seeking out the lost daughter (i.e. herself) and investigate what happened with her and her family back in the day (especially if there's some tragedy and mystery and plot burried there somewhere)

I really love that angle. I may steal that.

1 minute ago, SufficientlyAdvancedMoronics said:

Love the concept. I realize I probably haven't been that helpful and have raised more questions than answered, but please post answers if you have them.

Oh no, these questions are really helpful.

1 minute ago, SufficientlyAdvancedMoronics said:

My personal view of Holocrons is that they only have the information that their creator deliberately imparted to it. As such, The major question for me in this is "When was this holocron created?"

Ok, so hold up. Was the holocron designed to be opened with that crystal? If so, would the holocron have been created before, during or after the mother's time on Spintiir? If after, how would that work if the mother doesn't have the crystal? Did she have a matching one? Is that relevant?

The next question is why the holocron was created. If made after and made to be opened with the crystal, is it specifically for her daughter? does it contain information purely for her? If made before, it surely wouldn't have any knowledge of her daughter. Even if it housed all of a person's knowledge at the time of creation, it wouldn't know of her yet.

The holocron was designed to be opened with the crystal (though this can be changed very easily), and my intention was that the holocron was created during the mother's time on Not-Spintiir.

That "Why?" is a very good question. I'm not entirely sure. I'll have to think on that. Thank you!

2 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The holocron was designed to be opened with the crystal (though this can be changed very easily), and my intention was that the holocron was created during the mother's time on Not-Spintiir

Getting some Sarah Connor making recordings for her son John vibes from this. I like it.

Just now, SufficientlyAdvancedMoronics said:

Getting some Sarah Connor making recordings for her son John vibes from this. I like it.

Sigh...

I really need to get around to watching Alien, Terminator, Blade Runner, etc. etc.

I'm terrible at procrastinating stuff I want to do.

4 minutes ago, angelman2 said:

Personally, I think the "No" option offers the most drama and tension, especially if the PC comes to recognize the gatekeeper without the gatekeeper "recognizing" her. You could have the "mother" talk to her daughter as an equal without ever having the capacity to internalize and understand the concept that the student is in fact her daughter.

Thanks for your input on that. It's a sad option, but might the best one.

8 minutes ago, angelman2 said:

You could also have the gatekeeper playing some power games hoping to manipulate the holocron student into seeking out the lost daughter (i.e. herself) and investigate what happened with her and her family back in the day (especially if there's some tragedy and mystery and plot burried there somewhere).

So the mother doesn't recognize the student as her daughter, but wants the student to find out what happened to the daughter/family after the holocron was created?

This might be hard to pull off, but it would be interesting if the PC doesn't even realize it's her mother. Probably too hard to pull off. I'm GMing for first-time roleplayers, so I don't want to get too far into the weeds with character knowledge vs. player knowledge.

2 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I really need to get around to watching Alien, Terminator, Blade Runner, etc. etc.

Yes... yes you do

While I first thought "Definitely Yes" the dynamic of going the "No" Route hold more promise in my opinion.
It can still be bitter sweet when the PC at some point realize that they have been taught by their mother the whole time.
They won't be able to bond but the PC would possibly be able to find peace and warmth in the fact that their mother's teachings were passed on.

Not to think of the Moment they actually learn that fact Oo (that could be an absolutely awesome character moment).

Hmm... (gears start whirring up loudly)

Perhaps...

The mother made the holocron while pregnant, with the intention that it would teach her daughter if anything were to happen to prevent her from teaching her daughter herself. However, in the chaos of the Clone Wars it remained an unfinished product and she was never able to update it before her untimely demise.

When Skye (the daughter) opens the holocron, the gatekeeper does not recognize her as the daughter.

Not sure where to go from here though. Seems like it wouldn't be too hard to convince it. "Look, I have the key, I look like my mother, and can't you sense my Force signature?"

Thoughts?

3 minutes ago, Fl1nt said:

While I first thought "Definitely Yes" the dynamic of going the "No" Route hold more promise in my opinion.
It can still be bitter sweet when the PC at some point realize that they have been taught by their mother the whole time.
They won't be able to bond but the PC would possibly be able to find peace and warmth in the fact that their mother's teachings were passed on.

Not to think of the Moment they actually learn that fact Oo (that could be an absolutely awesome character moment).

I like that, but it has the issue of the character cluing in as to the identity. I already gave a description of the mother based on the PCs' memories of her and information from parents.

It might be difficult to make it such that they do not...

(gears whir furiously)

Unless perhaps the projector is broken/missing/non-functional? The Artisan could eventually fix it given time and education, but until then it would just be a voice.

Could that work?

This is becoming a fun game.

5 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Seems like it wouldn't be too hard to convince it

I'd say that there needs to be something very specific that the holocron needs to hear/see in order to recognise her as the daughter so as to prevent the information within from being taken by anyone who may steal the key. (What with two factor authentication being so common in holocrons these days)

Maybe a song that she used to sing, but the player has forgotten the words. Maybe something that her parents used to tell her as a child that was a phrase she heard a lot.

It's kinda a staple of holocrons in my games that there's an element of ensuring the user is trustworthy before disclosing knowledge, and I think this should be no different. It may have superficial knowledge that it discloses, but the real juicy info is waiting for the one that is worthy. This would give you loads of scope to include dreams for the player, flashbacks, and the opportunity to remember forgotten things while tracing her mother's footsteps (if you go that route)

13 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Unless perhaps the projector is broken/missing/non-functional? The Artisan could eventually fix it given time and education, but until then it would just be a voice

You did say it may have been a work in progress which was abandoned. It could be that the image is incomplete or hazy, and needs further work/tuning to bring her into focus.

4 minutes ago, SufficientlyAdvancedMoronics said:

I'd say that there needs to be something very specific that the holocron needs to hear/see in order to recognise her as the daughter so as to prevent the information within from being taken by anyone who may steal the key. (What with two factor authentication being so common in holocrons these days)

Maybe a song that she used to sing, but the player has forgotten the words. Maybe something that her parents used to tell her as a child that was a phrase she heard a lot.

It's kinda a staple of holocrons in my games that there's an element of ensuring the user is trustworthy before disclosing knowledge, and I think this should be no different. It may have superficial knowledge that it discloses, but the real juicy info is waiting for the one that is worthy. This would give you loads of scope to include dreams for the player, flashbacks, and the opportunity to remember forgotten things while tracing her mother's footsteps (if you go that route)

Hmm...

I like that idea, but how would the gatekeeper request the "passcode," as it were?

It seems to me that if the gatekeeper were to come out and say "If you are my daughter, what song did I always sing?" or something like it, the PC will then know that it is her mother.

If it doesn't request verification, how does the PC know what to look for?

Current ideas/goals:

• Skye's mother built the holocron while she was pregnant, and was unable to finish the process/update it because of the Clone Wars.
• The gatekeeper doesn't recognize Skye as her daughter because that information had not been updated.
• The holocron's hologram is not functioning well, and does not present a decipherable image, so the PC's do not recognize her as Skye's mother.
• The gatekeeper requires some further verification before accepting Skye as the daughter. How? What?
• Issue: Name. How does the gatekeeper introduce herself? If by name, then the PCs will recognize it.
• Does the gatekeeper not fully understand its own identity? The PCs need to help the gatekeeper learn about itself?
• Does the gatekeeper ever fully understand what it means for Skye to be her daughter? Is it ever able to make that sort of bond or connection, or was there a glitch in the matrix preventing it from connecting as the mother intended for it to?

Am I perhaps trying to do too much? Should the PCs know that it is Skye's mother, or at least figure that out early on?

I don't think you're trying to do too much. I think you have a plot hook that involves a lot of intrigue and discovery which just needs some careful thought.

23 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The gatekeeper requires some further verification before accepting Skye as the daughter. How? What?

It would have to be something that she would expect only her daughter to know (like the whole Jyn Erso/Stardust thing). Picking this may be the most important part of the plot.

25 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Issue: Name. How does the gatekeeper introduce herself? If by name, then the PCs will recognize it

It could introduce itself by title only, or perhaps she had the child under a pseudonym.

26 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Does the gatekeeper not fully understand its own identity? The PCs need to help the gatekeeper learn about itself?

I think it should, but it should not be capable of understanding or revealing information about her daughter without being 'unlocked'. Its persona would have to have been one that would not rouse suspicion to other jedi. More support for the mother having her child under a pseudonym.

29 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Does the gatekeeper ever fully understand what it means for Skye to be her daughter?

Depends on the purpose of the holocron. If it's there to teach, then it could convey the mother's love for her child in its style of teaching from that point onwards. If it's to give crucial information to avoiding the Empire - maybe because she suspected the purge or something was coming - then it may give an impassioned speech and advice as to where a force user like her might hide or find refuge (leading to other potential plot hooks) but that may be way of base.

I love playing with the possibilities and bounds of holocrons. Never had ran a F&D campaign where one didn't feature prominently in the plot. My conception of them is entirely formed by tOR novels (Bane Trilogy, etc.), so my input may not be canon.

But, my impression of holocrons were that the gatekeeper is basically a complete "impression" or snapshot of who the maker was, and whatever they knew, at the time of the creation of the holocron. From there, they can form new "memories", and they're capable of "emergent, AI-like" thought and extrapolation based on the maker's intellect and knowledge at the time of creation.

So, all it would take is knowing the name of the student (if Skye knows her full name?) to know that she's her daughter. That said, if she was a distrustful person, the gatekeeper might not BELIEVE it's her daughter, but could have ways to "test" that? The gatekeeper also might not really care, in some regards. Its job as a construct is to protect the knowledge of the holocron, and my impression is they are bound to that and whatever protocols the maker put in place, so whether Skye is her daughter or not, it wouldn't change what the holocron will do for her, or what it will reveal.

There's a ton of latitude though, clearly, to do different things with holocrons. Cool campaign start.

6 minutes ago, SufficientlyAdvancedMoronics said:

It would have to be something that she would expect only her daughter to know (like the whole Jyn Erso/Stardust thing). Picking this may be the most important part of the plot.

Okay, that'll take some careful thought. How would it ask for the code? Would it just expect the daughter to offer it?

7 minutes ago, SufficientlyAdvancedMoronics said:

It could introduce itself by title only, or perhaps she had the child under a pseudonym.

I think it should, but it should not be capable of understanding or revealing information about her daughter without being 'unlocked'. Its persona would have to have been one that would not rouse suspicion to other jedi. More support for the mother having her child under a pseudonym.

That makes sense, and may also throw the PCs off track, making the reveal much more surprising (if they haven't already guessed it). I'll go with the pseudonym suggestion, meaning that the name the PCs know for her is incorrect. Thank you, I'll go with that.

10 minutes ago, SufficientlyAdvancedMoronics said:

Depends on the purpose of the holocron. If it's there to teach, then it could convey the mother's love for her child in its style of teaching from that point onwards. If it's to give crucial information to avoiding the Empire - maybe because she suspected the purge or something was coming - then it may give an impassioned speech and advice as to where a force user like her might hide or find refuge (leading to other potential plot hooks) but that may be way of base.

It's to teach. Thank you. It may also give advice on the latter, but the PCs know very little of the greater galaxy so they'd be learning it together.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Hmm...

I like that idea, but how would the gatekeeper request the "passcode," as it were?

It seems to me that if the gatekeeper were to come out and say "If you are my daughter, what song did I always sing?" or something like it, the PC will then know that it is her mother.

If it doesn't request verification, how does the PC know what to look for?

If you went with my original idea, the clearest plan here would be for the gatekeeper to request that the PCs find and secure her daughter before any deeper knowledge will get unlocked. Perhaps the mother finished the holocron "recording" after her daughter disappeared, and ad hoc changed the focus of the teaching device into a "liberate-my-daughter" device.

You could even dole it out little by little through several gatekeeper missions, which all leads towards the ultimate "I... am your mother" reveal.
EXAMPLE:
Mission 1 : "Take me to PLANET and investigate ATTACK/DISASTER where my daughter disappeared." =unlocks a minor XP discount or something
Mission 2 : "Identify BAD GUY who was responsible for the ATTACK/DISASTER." =learns that the daughter's chaperone escaped with the baby & gain partial holocron access
Mission 3 : "Follow the trail of the CHAPERONE. Find my daughter." =learns the "I'm yer mamma" reveal & gain full holocron access

3 minutes ago, emsquared said:

But, my impression of holocrons were that the gatekeeper is basically a complete "impression" or snapshot of who the maker was, and whatever they knew, at the time of the creation of the holocron. From there, they can form new "memories", and they're capable of "emergent, AI-like" thought and extrapolation based on the maker's intellect and knowledge at the time of creation.

This is a helpful way to quantify that, and lines up well with the idea of an incomplete holocron.

4 minutes ago, emsquared said:

So, all it would take is knowing the name of the student (if Skye knows her full name?) to know that she's her daughter. That said, if she was a distrustful person, the gatekeeper might not BELIEVE it's her daughter, but could have ways to "test" that?

Aside from some general knowledge in the holocron, the "juicy" stuff is for her daughter. It was built as a way to teach her daughter if she was unable to do so herself.

The idea of requiring further verification to ensure that is her daughter is sound.

I guess some of the "how to ask for identification?" will have to be played by ear, but I feel that I need at least a general idea so that I don't accidentally screw anything up.

2 minutes ago, angelman2 said:

If you went with my original idea, the clearest idea here would be for the gatekeeper to request that the PCs find and secure her daughter before any deeper knowledge will get unlocked. Perhaps the mother finished the holocron "recording" after her daughter disappeared, and ad hoc changed the focus of the teaching device into a "liberate-my-daughter" device.

You could even dole it out little by little through several gatekeeper missions, which all leads towards the ultimate "I... am your mother" reveal.
EXAMPLE:
Mission 1 : "Take me to PLANET and investigate ATTACK/DISASTER where my daughter disappeared." =unlocks a minor XP discount or something
Mission 2 : "Identify BAD GUY who was responsible for the ATTACK/DISASTER." =learns that the daughter's chaperone escaped with the baby & gain partial holocron access
Mission 3 : "Follow the trail of the CHAPERONE. Find my daughter." =learns the "I'm yer mamma" reveal & gain full holocron access

That is very interesting, but doesn't fit in this case. The mother gave up her daughter to a family on Not-Spintiir because she knew she wouldn't be able to raise Skye herself, due to the strictures of the Jedi order and then the Clone Wars.

I'll have to think about how I may be able to adapt that though, as I like the concept. I'm guessing that the "missions" will end up being more cerebral/social in nature as Skye tries to remember/learn more about her mother and her past so that she can prove her identity. Just learning from others would sort of defeat the purpose though, so it'd probably have to be through dreams/visions/meditation etc. that she discovers the solution to the problem.

I am somewhat limited in what I can change because of the history I've already hammered out with the players.

13 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

How would it ask for the code? Would it just expect the daughter to offer it?

My personal take would be for the holocron to not ask for it, but instead to be waiting for the right words to be said to it that may unlock it.

I may have gone down the rabbit hole a bit, but I really like the idea of it being a song that her mother sang, which is an old folk legend from some distant race that she interacted with once during her time with the jedi order, and has since been wiped out by the Empire. It could have been in another language and something that she only heard as a baby, meaning she only recalls the tune and not the words.

Then, on some quest related to her brother's plot, she notices a street performer who is playing the tune on a flute-like instrument. On asking about it, the performer can tell her what the song is, but not what the words are. This could give plot points to learn more about the last days of that species, and about her mothers involvement, and find the words she's forgotten.

Just my take on it though. Feel free to disregard.

8 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I am somewhat limited in what I can change because of the history I've already hammered out with the players.

Ah, that certianly complicates things...

2 minutes ago, SufficientlyAdvancedMoronics said:

on some quest related to her brother's plot,

This is a great opportunity to involve them both. You could have the brother's plot take the driver's seat initially, and making it so that the sister's mamma-plot (the lullaby-key) only blossoms later on in a context that is relevant to the escalation of the brother's plot. (Again, I cannot form clear sentences today). An easy way to link the two plots would be to have a single bad guy/faction driving both plots.

36 minutes ago, SufficientlyAdvancedMoronics said:

I may have gone down the rabbit hole a bit, but I really like the idea of it being a song that her mother sang, which is an old folk legend from some distant race that she interacted with once during her time with the jedi order, and has since been wiped out by the Empire. It could have been in another language and something that she only heard as a baby, meaning she only recalls the tune and not the words.

Then, on some quest related to her brother's plot, she notices a street performer who is playing the tune on a flute-like instrument. On asking about it, the performer can tell her what the song is, but not what the words are. This could give plot points to learn more about the last days of that species, and about her mothers involvement, and find the words she's forgotten.

I like the song idea. I'll have to think on that more and figure something out. Both as far as what it is and for how they find out that it is what they need.

*resisting the urge to make it a Mando ballad.*
("No. Stop. No Mandos." "But I love Mandos. Mandos are awesome!" "I said NO. No Mandos.")

29 minutes ago, angelman2 said:

This is a great opportunity to involve them both. You could have the brother's plot take the driver's seat initially, and making it so that the sister's mamma-plot (the lullaby-key) only blossoms later on in a context that is relevant to the escalation of the brother's plot. (Again, I cannot form clear sentences today). An easy way to link the two plots would be to have a single bad guy/faction driving both plots.

Yeah, the brother's plot is something I need to work out. I just haven't had the same inspiration for it since the backstory just isn't as compelling. Right now it is mostly based around material milestones as the character is an Artisan who wants to become a pilot. So acquiring a ship, a starfighter, etc.

I do not really have a bad guy as of yet. The Empire is around, and there are some less-than savory characters around, but I don't have an over-arching villain yet.

As these players are new to RPGs, I'm starting off slowly and not getting deeply into the story for the first couple sessions. I'm not sure when I'll have an over-arching villain, I might not at all.

I've been thinking about how I would pull it off, and I had an idea.

This is partially dependent on how successful I've been in concealing the gatekeeper's identity, but I may be able to have two storylines running parallel. If they are trying to find out more about Skye's mother, I insert a vision/memory/echo of the lullaby, but she can't remember the words. If she learns the words to it, she starts singing at some point. When this happens, the holocron activates (kinda like a less-evil Alexa) and the gatekeeper recognizes her or says "Oh, I love that song." or something, enough to trigger the PCs to realize there is a connection to pursue.

Since the gatekeeper simply had the "I have a daughter" routine shut off, it would still be able to exercise discretion in who it opened up to. This adds a final layer of security to the authentication.

I'm still not sure how they would discover the words to the song, but perhaps I should simply cross that bridge when I come to it. It would help if I had an idea what song. Any suggestions of something that already exists? I'm not exactly a renowned songwriter, so I hope I don't have to actually make anything up.
(And don't say "adapt a song you like!" because Demon Hunter and Sabaton aren't exactly lullaby material)