9 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Today, you can get them for sometimes with standard editions, but....

Every single non FFG game I own has them. But the cardboard would be perfectly fine, if they'd spent a second figuring out how it would work for me. Like I said, they're printing on the wrong side.

But what do you expect will be innovative about this new iteration of Descent that will make people want to buy it other than *blink-blink* huge box and miniatures?
The size of the box urges me to consider it will be a legacy game (stuffed with things to unpack), but in my mind probably a green legacy game.
Maybe they could also plan to bring out branching expansions - like being able to mix and match specific expansions depending on how players progress in the story. Though that would be a huge overhead in production.
"Act I" surely points that there would be an equal size "Act II" box - maybe even fully playable on its own?
The fact that Terrinoth has also seen a strategy game, an RPG game, an adventure game, novels and various other stuff, makes me think it could have similar ideas to Arydia of steps in exploration, combat, role playing, etc.
And to stretch to the expected app that will also be an option... I could only consider the possibility of a world that players can interact with and somehow change it, in a way that has an impact to other gaming groups, something like a MMO Board Game. But the chaos involved in such an idea would be interesting to tackle.

6 hours ago, Brutalien said:

But what do you expect will be innovative about this new iteration of Descent that will make people want to buy it other than *blink-blink* huge box and miniatures?

App. People complain about running the monsters in Gloomhaven. I liked the monster cards in the D&D board games, they were quite simple but left players with tactical decisions.

FFG's system for descent was less enjoyable on account of being more busy. But I get the problems with tacking an AI onto a finicky tactile game were likely responsible.

Mansions of Madness has a simpler system for monster movement that's quite enjoyable. The narrative elements of combat are great though it sucks when they repeat. But the amount of things that happen during the mythos has turned my player groups off from this game pretty hard.

I think they went to far away from the story experience in Lord of the Rings, hopefully they find some middle ground in this.

Quote

The size of the box urges me to consider it will be a legacy game (stuffed with things to unpack), but in my mind probably a green legacy game.

Hopefully, it would be great if that was a full self contained box.

Quote

Maybe they could also plan to bring out branching expansions - like being able to mix and match specific expansions depending on how players progress in the story.

Please no. The moment FFG starts trying to figure out how to get more money out of us by cutting up a game into little parts everything ends up being worse for it.

13 hours ago, Bucho said:

Every single non FFG game I own has them. But the cardboard would be perfectly fine, if they'd spent a second figuring out how it would work for me. Like I said, they're printing on the wrong side.

Yeah, as I said, its more common these days, but its still not every game. To go along with your anecdote, if I look at my game shelf right next to the gaming table, discount everything FFG published ( Descent , RMG , X-Wing , MoM , which is a scary amount of the shelf space for FFG now that I think about it), I've got within reach Standard Editions of Stuffed Fables , Mice and Mystics (Plaid Hat Games), and Collection Editions of Everdell (Sterling Games) and its various expansions. Neither Plaid Hat game has custom insert, opting for similar folded cardboard insert, and Everdell does have custom inserts, but I do own the CEs of all except Bellfaire . They do put custom inserts in the SEs, but the custom insert was unlocked as part of its Kickstarter goals , it may have not actually happened had the pre-sales not been there. And looking at another recent game I kickstarted and have been looking forward to, Wonderland's War , the custom tray insert is part of the CE, and not the SE . Now, I paid for the CE, and the custom trays do have value for me, but that is just another example of them not being industry standard yet .

Honestly, I just feel there are about 100 other things that should be focused on fixing before worrying about protective cardboard inserts being optimized. It felt like an odd thing to hear complaints about. But sure, it would be a nice touch.

"Still it's a minor frustration to me that if they just printed on the other side"

Like I said before it's just a pet peeve that they could make things better without spending any more money just by changing which side they print on.

My actual complaint is that I bought a box of air, with a little bit of game in it.

Still the insert thing is one of many signs that routinely make me question how much playtesting actually gets done over at FFG.

I agree with much of the above. Quite frankly, FFG could simply eliminate the stupid folding colored/graphic card board, and simply place foam or whatever, and it would cost less and probably protect better than the **** card board.

11 hours ago, any2cards said:

I agree with much of the above. Quite frankly, FFG could simply eliminate the stupid folding colored/graphic card board, and simply place foam or whatever, and it would cost less and probably protect better than the **** card board.

Probably this is the economic decision - they have them for almost 20 years, I'm sure for a reason (possibly due to agreements they are cheaper). Personally I find these inserts unhelpful - I usualy get rid of them (due to the lack of box space for the expansions). But they serve their logistic purposes and I'm glad that FFG producs come safe and intact inside the box (which I cannot say about the many other publishers. God, Clank in Space was a mess, even with the plastic insert).

Here I am hoping and begging that tthis is a new edition and that:

PLEASE LET IT NOT BE PUZZLE MODE (solo / "co-op") ONLY

It has been so disappointing that every major dungeon crawler product in the last 4 years has been only puzzles.. including FFG's Lord of the rings one. I understand the appeal to publish this kind of product since there's a massive irrational demand for them (BGG's majority of users who go all in on everything at pre-orders and are very loud in rating) but man, is it not unfair that:

-Frosthaven
-Lord of the rings
-Middara
-Etherfields
-Tainted Grail
-Gloomhaven
-Descent's last content (all app)

Did not offer , not even as an expansion, a gamemode where you would compete against your friends in exciting battles? These are only he games I remember.. they may be more!

But I guess it's too late for them to hear me rant, the product may be already done, so fingers crossed!

On 8/6/2020 at 5:26 AM, GralQ said:

Here I am hoping and begging that tthis is a new edition and that:

PLEASE LET IT NOT BE PUZZLE MODE (solo / "co-op") ONLY

It has been so disappointing that every major dungeon crawler product in the last 4 years has been only puzzles.. including FFG's Lord of the rings one. I understand the appeal to publish this kind of product since there's a massive irrational demand for them (BGG's majority of users who go all in on everything at pre-orders and are very loud in rating) but man, is it not unfair that:

-Frosthaven
-Lord of the rings
-Middara
-Etherfields
-Tainted Grail
-Gloomhaven
-Descent's last content (all app)

Did not offer , not even as an expansion, a gamemode where you would compete against your friends in exciting battles? These are only he games I remember.. they may be more!

But I guess it's too late for them to hear me rant, the product may be already done, so fingers crossed!

Can't agree or like this post enough. I have had it with games I want to enjoy only coming out with co-op modes. My friends and I are highly competitive and enjoy 1 vs many far more. Unfortunately, co-op mode follows the path we have been going down for years in the US where we dumb everything down, everyone gets a participation trophy, and g-d forbid if someone's precious feelings get hurt ... or "GASP", if they lose ...

1 hour ago, any2cards said:

Can't agree or like this post enough. I have had it with games I want to enjoy only coming out with co-op modes. My friends and I are highly competitive and enjoy 1 vs many far more. Unfortunately, co-op mode follows the path we have been going down for years in the US where we dumb everything down, everyone gets a participation trophy, and g-d forbid if someone's precious feelings get hurt ... or "GASP", if the lose ...

or "GASP" people just want to go on adventures together... so they buy the games they can play ...together...

no, that can't be it because people are supposed to be competitive at all times

Well, from the discussions on BGG, it seems that the general consensus of those that tried to make out what was written on the box, one part is "A Co-op board game of dungeon delving adventure"...

So, yeah, that... 🤷‍♂️

I love both modes, that said after a long, long string of enjoyable co-ops we brought out Last Night on Earth - I kind of forgot how great 1 vs Many is. That was the noisiest, most jokingly argumentative evening in a long time. That flow of crazily impractical or tactically brilliant moves (even when accidental), the plans that fall apart, or come together are somehow 'more' I think when against the constant unknown and changeable risk of playing a human opponent, even with the complete luck-fest that is LNoE. People were standing. We laughed, we fought.

Again, I love both modes - I want to go on adventures with my friends. I also like to trounce them into a fine sand (I am always the Overlord), or watch them rally toward victory as it slips through my fingers. I like to win and I like to lose, spectacularly, against their best efforts.

I own MANY co-ops, many of those are a bit puzzley, but I have been looking a fair bit more at 1 vs Many games as of late.

But, but, but... I haven't finished painting all of 2nd edition yet! And I still have 90% of IA too! *Cries in corner a little*

Super excited for more Descent, though. Hoping for a reboot of Runebound as well, but that's what dreams are for. The one thing I've noticed with FFG over the years is they use their proprietary properties to test out mechanics before releasing "improved" versions for their licensed games. i.e. Descent 2nd ed then IA. I've wanted to implement many mechanics from IA into Descent to make it more balanced, but meh, time.

I totally expect FFG to hold me upside down and take my lunch money with Descent 3, but I'm more concerned with the fun factor and if they will have great mechanics out of the gate and support changes BEFORE/AS they "fix" it for whatever Star Wars game they develop after Decent 3.

As for Co-Op/Competitive - why not both? I was so excited when the Descent and IA apps came out so my son and I could play together - and not just have mean dad attacking the heroes all the time. (Personal gripe: Why wasn't there an option to play as the Empire in the app?) It would be cool to have a scenario builder for a Descent 3 app - I've benefited from the Quest Vault for 2nd Edition and had tons of fun with community maps. Alright, back to painting. Have a great one, everybody!

1 hour ago, ironmorgan2 said:

As for Co-Op/Competitive - why not both? I was so excited when the Descent and IA apps came out so my son and I could play together - and not just have mean dad attacking the heroes all the time. (Personal gripe: Why wasn't there an option to play as the Empire in the app?) It would be cool to have a scenario builder for a Descent 3 app - I've benefited from the Quest Vault for 2nd Edition and had tons of fun with community maps. Alright, back to painting. Have a great one, everybody!

Yeah I was saying it would be nice if it featured a Competitive mode; it doesn't have to be exclusive. My fear is that they wont, as all the other major titles I mentioned which completely exclude game modes other than puzzle mode.

Look how a poster, a few post above this one ridiculized us for asking this game mode and wants puzzle mode only.. The reality is that that type of player doesn't have enough with Forsthavemn, Gloomhaven, Middara, Etherfields, Tainted Grail, Lord of the rings, Descent app.. they keep going all-in on every new coop product , thus publishers keep pumping them out :(. I am sure that a potential Descent 3rd edition will feature puzzle mode; I just hope it also includes a good gamemode for me!

VERY excited for this game. Imperial Assault is my groups favourite game.. which is obviously based on Descent 2nd edition in Star Wars land. I love the system, I love the dice, all of that. I hope they don't get to far away from that. Gloomhaven bragged about their diceless system, but it was just cards with dice symbols on them... I'd rather just roll dice personally.

Gloomhaven is a super fun game and the value for what you pay, especially at KS prices, was incredible. Hopefully that bar is followed by FFG< although I can't really argue with the value you get from FFG Cores..

Either way I will definitely be trying this out with my group. We skipped over Lord of the Rings, despite being huge fans, as I wasn't a huge fan of the system. So as long as this stays decently true to the roots of Descent 2nd Edition I will be happy.

Obviously they have to innovate something, and I hope they do. But let's not mess with success to much.

I just wonder when we will finally get some news..

1 vs many has mainly 2 problems:

- it is quite more difficult to be balanced (quite variable ability of playing by the 1s) than a coop version

- you need to have in the groups 1 person willing to be the 1

1) means more testing and so higher costs and longer development time

2) means reduced market (many groups don't have the 1)

A game with 2 ways of playing can be a solution, but at a higher cost and with a longer time to market (i.e. longer development time).

BTW, a dungeon crawler game should not be a puzzle game 😉 Let's call every game with its proper "type name" 🙂

1 hour ago, tibia said:

1 vs many has mainly 2 problems:

- it is quite more difficult to be balanced (quite variable ability of playing by the 1s) than a coop version

- you need to have in the groups 1 person willing to be the 1

1) means more testing and so higher costs and longer development time

2) means reduced market (many groups don't have the 1)

A game with 2 ways of playing can be a solution, but at a higher cost and with a longer time to market (i.e. longer development time).

BTW, a dungeon crawler game should not be a puzzle game 😉 Let's call every game with its proper "type name" 🙂

'Puzzley', not puzzle game per se. As these are board games and not RPG's you are bound to get a some system or other within the game which is a bit puzzley. I'll call games as I see them through playing, though. Co-ops have to rely more heavily on such things I think, some like Descent do it better than some others, most assuredly.

That said, I would argue that there are likely just as many if not more groups that are used to playing 1 vs Many, as well All vs All. Co-op's, while popular right now, are fewer in number overall.

But all of this is a side topic. Whatever wonderful things they have hidden in the 'blue cube', I'm game.

I still really hope it has co op AND 1 vs many- Descent needs its overlord, but as has been said here player vs player would be awesome too (I've just been theorizing/what-if-ing on such matters so they're still in my head) so with the variety of Terrinoth games I like I think it will tick at least one of my boxes Although the overlord mechanic has its issues, removing it altogether would be a big change, but we shouldn't worry too much as either way I don't think it stops this potentially being a great game still. But I do wonder if it's the overlord on the box? What do people think? Or is that a new Waiqar/Timorran (looks baddie to me though) ? A new enemy? I immediately got definite overlord vibes (check out the card backs https://descent2e.fandom.com/wiki/Overlord_Card )

In fact having just done the same it's gotta be surely? So I think the overlord's a feature- maybe not a player- but a feature. Looks a bit meaner too (just noticed the subtle dragon like look to it with those upper eyes- it's like they've merged the fiery, dragony overlord image from 1e with the less dragony 2e version. It MUST be the overlord, and just that excites me. The fact it's like one of those magic faces where you see two faces in one even more so- the dragon/evil entity combo is rather epic. My fan project has the overlord show up so it's awesome to maybe have that as the box art for the new FFG project. For some reason I'm imagining it saying 'there's a bit of dragon in all of us' in an evil voice. I'm not going to be able to continue without my take on the overlord having even more of a dragon link now, was already going to reference the fiery dragon overlord of 1e, but that image just raises some interesting possible twists on things (the overlord is clearly a demon-dragon-wizard-beast ) FFG keep that cover art, I absolutely love it. The more you look the better it gets- even hints of wolf, fox... Sure the dragon combo's deliberate from how the teeth still work.

Would still buy that just for the box If that had been the 'Lost Legends' box I'd still have been happy. OK 99.99999% excess to requirements but epically designed box for my other stuff.

In terms of boxes bigger than what you get it's partly about shop display factors- if a shop has x amount of games where x= yours plus y (y being the other games) then you want yours to both get noticed and not disappear in a sea of titles- this is why in the peak days of buying rather than downloading computer games you'd get a cd in a much bigger box the size of which could hold a medium sized electronic gadget- it didn't need the big box, but the big box made it noticeable in the shop to a potential buyer. This new box is not going to hide shyly in the corner

Also I'm already getting mythical box with very important ancient relic vibes. Or put your head behind the lid to do the overlord voice (enhanced by speaking into a box) vibes. In fact that could be fun for a future RPG sesh surprise... Might use that idea.

Like Cotgrave "Whatever wonderful things they have hidden in the 'blue cube', I'm game." and if they don't match the hype it's the new home for some of my collection.

I missed the butterfly (just been catching up with bgg threads now my internet's working after being down this week, so found out it's not just me seeing a dragon)

But the butterfly-spotter also missed the manta ray and the time lord helmet and the cyberman if you turn it upside down......

Already stated else where I hope it maintains both styles of play as the reason I have pretty complete collections of D1e and D2e is because it offers an overlord mode something I can't get elsewhere.... I'd really love a Overlord mode I could play solo but I realise that is wishful thinking at this stage.

5 hours ago, Cotgrave said:

'Puzzley', not puzzle game per se. As these are board games and not RPG's you are bound to get a some system or other within the game which is a bit puzzley. I'll call games as I see them through playing, though. Co-ops have to rely more heavily on such things I think, some like Descent do it better than some others, most assuredly.

That said, I would argue that there are likely just as many if not more groups that are used to playing 1 vs Many, as well All vs All. Co-op's, while popular right now, are fewer in number overall.

But all of this is a side topic. Whatever wonderful things they have hidden in the 'blue cube', I'm game.

Can you share this extensive list of current 1 vs many dungeon crawlers, with experience and progression for both sides of the table, because outside descent and imperial assault (being generous to count it as a crawler rather than a skirmish system) I've spent years looking and come away empty handed. Super dungeon explore has 1 v many mode but is just for one off adventures, then you've got Sword and Sorcery, Middara, Gloomhaven, Frosthaven, Arena, etherfields, Tainted Grail, deep madness, mainsons of madness, Oathsworn etc etc which only offer co-op dungeon/exploration modes.

Hi Crimson Sun,

Don't know if I mentioned "this extensive list of current 1 vs many dungeon crawlers, with experience and progression for both sides of the table".

I did refer to 1 vs Many and All vs All, but I wasn't being specific to Dungeon crawlers nor to 'current' games, yet even doing so you set a high bar here I didn't reference. My comment was in reference to the make-up of gaming groups; perhaps pure co-op gaming groups are the norm of course, I guess I am just used to those which play a variety of types over the years, even if he main are Dungeon crawlers.

In respect to Descent, my hope is they continue to support 1 vs Many, if I wasn't clear.

Have you tried/what did you think of SMOG, Rise of Moloch? (being that you mention IA)

On 8/6/2020 at 8:26 AM, GralQ said:

Here I am hoping and begging that tthis is a new edition and that:

PLEASE LET IT NOT BE PUZZLE MODE (solo / "co-op") ONLY

It has been so disappointing that every major dungeon crawler product in the last 4 years has been only puzzles.. including FFG's Lord of the rings one. I understand the appeal to publish this kind of product since there's a massive irrational demand for them (BGG's majority of users who go all in on everything at pre-orders and are very loud in rating) but man, is it not unfair that:

-Frosthaven
-Lord of the rings
-Middara
-Etherfields
-Tainted Grail
-Gloomhaven
-Descent's last content (all app)

Did not offer , not even as an expansion, a gamemode where you would compete against your friends in exciting battles? These are only he games I remember.. they may be more!

But I guess it's too late for them to hear me rant, the product may be already done, so fingers crossed!

Because that is not what the board game community wants. They do not want potential player elimination. They do not want to feel bad taking out a friend etc.

When Monolith released Claustrophobia 1643 -- 1 v Many (or 1 v 1) game, the knock against the game was that nobody wanted to play the overlord. Same with Batman Gotham City and Conan. This is why when they released Conan again on KS the big draw was solo mode.

What you are looking for is a Skirmish Game. There are Skirmish Games with Dungeon Crawl Scenarios -- Frostgrave Perilous Dark ruleset and an upcoming Rangers of Shadowdeep expansion or Broken Legions.

In the board game world there is Arena: The Contest. You play 1 to 8 players against each other in a fantasy setting dungeon crawl. There is the old school RPG Fantasy Trip that Steve Jackson recently released

So, we will see what they bring. But it is going to be more of the same because that is what sells.

As 2e has various modes of play- full coop, solo with app, overlord I'm sure there will be different options with the new game, perhaps something new too

On 8/7/2020 at 3:53 PM, TurboCooler said:

Because that is not what the board game community wants. They do not want potential player elimination. They do not want to feel bad taking out a friend etc.

Once again, someone advocating on behalf of "the entire board game community". I guess I am not a member, nor are any of my friends, as we all want 1 vs many.

On 8/7/2020 at 11:17 PM, Cotgrave said:

Have you tried/what did you think of SMOG, Rise of Moloch? (being that you mention IA)

I tried the Rise of Moloch - it's pretty good, but there is not much content in the core box. But I still recomend to give it a shot (preferably if you'll find the KS version with some, if not all of its expansions + if you don't mind the theme). I'll also recomend the previously mentioned Conan - the unique take on the dungeon crawler genre. But strictly with the KS stuff (at least with the second box with exclusives) - or else there is not much content in the base box (mission wise).