29 minutes ago, Jegergryte said:

So I've been messing around with the Jensaarai some more, here , here , here , and here .

As for for the Zeison Sha:

I'm not sure why the Diskblade should be used with the Lighsaber skill. It's a thrown weapon, potentially usable as a melee (even a brawl?) weapon. I guess this is a synergy with the throw lightsaber talents, but these can easily be reskinned, which I think would be more appropriate..., I see your reasoning for it, but I'm uncertain I'd slap these weapons into the Lightsaber skill.

I'm also uncertain about Instinctive telekinesis (or telekinetic).

How about

Disk blade technique: melee becomes a career skill for the character, additionally the character may use the saber throw and saber throw (improved) talents with the disk blade and Melee skill instead of Lightsaber.

Would a name change to "practiced telekinetic" make a difference..... I don't see another way to make the reliably good at telekinesis, besides a whole lot of force rating which is overpowered. The thing about the lore is they could do it reliably, empty soul is the precedent.

3 hours ago, DarthKaage said:

So, they are basically Blaster wielding Jedi. They believe all weapons should be tools for the job which includes both lightsabers and blasters and anything else they want to use at the time. Their most notable powers is the ability to intercept blaster bolts, slugs and shrapnel with their own blaster fire. They liked to voluntarily blindfold themselves and use the force to guide their aim.

I did look at the Hunter, and although that talent is nice most of the tree seems heavily focused on tracking which does not read as a Teepo at all. They really are a Jedi Gunslinger and I was looking for something along those lines. In lieu of a Tree I think I will stick with a Gunslinger / Executioner.

I am also really enjoying the Jensaari discussion and eagly await a finished tree. You guys are awesome, I am crap and doing this sort of thing.

I'm having trouble with squaring the ability to shoot down blade yt er bolts/slugs/etc. and the game mechanical need for every shot not to be an auto hit, which would necessitate the instinctive shot talent at a minimum and that's the hunter's signature talent meaning it shouldn't be poached. I could make a force sensitive gunslinger spec but it wouldn't be a tempo Paladin

2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I'm having trouble with squaring the ability to shoot down blade yt er bolts/slugs/etc. and the game mechanical need for every shot not to be an auto hit, which would necessitate the instinctive shot talent at a minimum and that's the hunter's signature talent meaning it shouldn't be poached. I could make a force sensitive gunslinger spec but it wouldn't be a tempo Paladin

Yeah, I agree there is probably not anything you can do with that. Maybe a narrative description when using the protect force ability? If you wanted to take a swing at a force-sensitive Gunslinger, I would be interested.

2 hours ago, DarthKaage said:

Yeah, I agree there is probably not anything you can do with that. Maybe a narrative description when using the protect force ability? If you wanted to take a swing at a force-sensitive Gunslinger, I would be interested.

Create a separate thread for force sensitive gunslinger, and I'll take a crack at it there, I'd prefer to reserve this thread for legends/canon force traditions.

So. Here's a final tweak on the Jensaarai Defender . It's still quite powerful, and I'm considering some shuffling in the bottom row. For one I'm not sure Force Cloak Mastery is that powerful, to be that inaccessible I mean (either switch it with the Force Rating talent, or add a connection to Armor Master Improved, perhaps both). I'm also thinking that Attune Armor should have a per round Strain cost.

I've also been thinking of this specialisation should require Force Rating 1, and provide some bonus career skills. I'm not sure. This would involve finding some more talents to pop in.

I like Linked Defense, but any input would be appreciated.

Any thoughts? Suggestions?

I've had a go at the Zeison Sha , heavily influenced by Elias' suggested talent list. It's silly.

So. I think this is the final version of the Zeison Sha .

I've reduced the number of Telekinetic Parry talents to two (replacing one with Toughened), simply because it has no requirements. Depending on how you count, that's either 3 or 4 damage removed before Soak, which isn't bad at all, when it requires no lightsaber or melee weapon of any kind, just having the talent.

One may switch Instinctive Telekinesis and Dedication, but I'm not sure that's needed.

I've switched Natural Hunter with One with Nature, as I see this as more suitable.

It's still pretty silly, but I'd probably allow a player to try this out in my game, if anyone wanted to.

EDIT: Latest version .

And because a Zeison Sha needs one:

DISCBLADE

The Discblade, the preferred Weapon of the Zeison Sha, is a small metal ring with handles on the top and bottom of the disc and four slender blades that tightly curve back as they extend from the sides. When thrown, the Discblade flies straight due to its aerodynamic design, but a trained Zeison Sha warrior can use The Force to return the weapon to their hand after it has been Thrown.

• Encumbrance: 1
• Hard Points: 2
• Rarity: 8 [It is supposed to be rare, but I do not believe it should be restricted]
• Price: 2,000 [This is taken straight from Saga Edition, should perhaps be reduced]
• Type: Thrown
• Categories: Cutting Edge Melee, Ranged
• Damage: 6 [This is a bit high perhaps, also, there are good arguments for basing it on Brawn with a +2 modifier from the Discblade instead]
• Range: Short
• Critical: 3
• Skill: Ranged - Light
• Hands: One-Handed
• Qualities: Limited Ammo 1, Pierce 2, Vicious 2

FEATURES

Weapon may be used against Engaged targets with the Brawl and Melee skill, having the following statistics: Damage: +1; Crit: 4; Special: Pierce 1, Vicious 1.

The Discblade may also be modified by appropriate attachments, such as: Balanced Hilt, Mono-Molecular Edge, Serrated Edge, and of course Superior Weapon Customisation.

I had a go at the Jal Shey ...

5 hours ago, Jegergryte said:

So. I think this is the final version of the Zeison Sha .

I've reduced the number of Telekinetic Parry talents to two (replacing one with Toughened), simply because it has no requirements. Depending on how you count, that's either 3 or 4 damage removed before Soak, which isn't bad at all, when it requires no lightsaber or melee weapon of any kind, just having the talent.

One may switch Instinctive Telekinesis and Dedication, but I'm not sure that's needed.

I've switched Natural Hunter with One with Nature, as I see this as more suitable.

It's still pretty silly, but I'd probably allow a player to try this out in my game, if anyone wanted to.

EDIT: Latest version .

I'll take a crack at the zeison sha myself... I was thinking a tree layout between sentinel:sentry and recruit.

Did the jal Shay use lightsabers? And if so how do they differentiate from the consular:arbiter?

Jal Shey did use lightsaber, but only basics - according to the wook.

They differ, in that they also focused on imbuing items and crafting armour.

So arguably, an Arbiter/Armorer combo would give you a different take on it.

EDIT: Although that combo would also focus too much on aspects that the Jal Shey were said to shun, or at least not involve themselves with.

EDIT 2: The Artisan and the Arbiter may be a more suitable combo.

9 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I'll take a crack at the zeison sha myself... I was thinking a tree layout between sentinel:sentry and recruit.

Sentry is a nice way. I thought about a similar one for both Jal Shey and Zeison Sha. But I got stuck on symmetry last night while working on the Zeison Sha... It just seemed to fit. Anyhew.

Zeizon sha (grants FR1)

Disk Blade Technique Insight. Survivor. Grit

| | |

Saber Throw--------------------Telekinetic Parry Forager----------outdoorsman

| |

Saber Throw (Improved)-------------Grit -------------Constant vigilance ----expert tracker

| |

Telekinetic Parry (improved)---Telekinetic Parry Force Rating-----Natural Hunter

| | |

Telekinetic Parry-----Telekinetic Parry (Supreme)---practiced Telekinetic---Dedication

*telekinetic parry: force talent: out of turn incidental,when hit by a melee attack, spend 3 strain to reduce damage by 2 plus ranks in telekinetic parry

*telekinetic parry (improved): force talent: may also use telekinetic parry to reduce damage from ranged attacks

*telekinetic parry (supreme): force talent: telekinesis parry costs 2 instead of 3 strain to use or 1 strain if the character did not attack on their previous turn.

*practiced telekinetic: force talent: add O 🌑 to move and bind force power checks and the saber throw and saber throw (improved) force talent checks

* Disk blade technique: Melee becomes a career skill for the character, additionally the character may use the saber throw and saber throw (improved) talents with the disk blade and Melee skill instead of Lightsaber.

* Survivor: Vigilance & survival become career skills for the character

13 hours ago, Jegergryte said:

And because a Zeison Sha needs one:

DISCBLADE

The Discblade, the preferred Weapon of the Zeison Sha, is a small metal ring with handles on the top and bottom of the disc and four slender blades that tightly curve back as they extend from the sides. When thrown, the Discblade flies straight due to its aerodynamic design, but a trained Zeison Sha warrior can use The Force to return the weapon to their hand after it has been Thrown.

• Encumbrance: 1
• Hard Points: 2
• Rarity: 8 [It is supposed to be rare, but I do not believe it should be restricted]
• Price: 2,000 [This is taken straight from Saga Edition, should perhaps be reduced]
• Type: Thrown
• Categories: Cutting Edge Melee, Ranged
• Damage: 6 [This is a bit high perhaps, also, there are good arguments for basing it on Brawn with a +2 modifier from the Discblade instead]
• Range: Short
• Critical: 3
• Skill: Ranged - Light
• Hands: One-Handed
• Qualities: Limited Ammo 1, Pierce 2, Vicious 2

FEATURES

Weapon may be used against Engaged targets with the Brawl and Melee skill, having the following statistics: Damage: +1; Crit: 4; Special: Pierce 1, Vicious 1.

The Discblade may also be modified by appropriate attachments, such as: Balanced Hilt, Mono-Molecular Edge, Serrated Edge, and of course Superior Weapon Customisation.

Have you seen these

https://star-wars-rpg-ffg.fandom.com/wiki/Vibrorang?mobile-app=false

https://star-wars-rpg-ffg.fandom.com/wiki/Philaxian_Phase-Knife?comments_page=1

I think vibrorang stats with a defensive (it's kind of a shield) and several hp. And probably 2 enc

5 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Have you seen these

https://star-wars-rpg-ffg.fandom.com/wiki/Vibrorang?mobile-app=false

https://star-wars-rpg-ffg.fandom.com/wiki/Philaxian_Phase-Knife?comments_page=1

I think vibrorang stats with a defensive (it's kind of a shield) and several hp. And probably 2 enc

Nah. By lore and official art, it's not a shield (it's maybe the size of a buckler), and it's a thrown weapon. It's not large, and it's a fairly simple construction - which makes sense considering the Zeison Sha's history of persecution and survival in the wild. So there's nothing that warrants giving it defensive (but I guess there are talents that could provide such a bonus if you wanted the Zeison Sha to be able to use it defensibly). Otherwise, that stats, damage, crit and such of the vibrorang are fine, but it should have 1, perhaps 2, HPs. Nothing more. I set encumbrance on 1, because I see them as light, with little mass, but 2 would be fine. But the range should be, I think, of the normal thrown weapon range (i.e. Short range) - perhaps giving it accurate, considering the weapon description . But it's no vibrorang, it's a metal circle with knives and a handle. What makes it go further is the Zeison Sha's abilities.

As for your take on the specialisation and talents:

I see reasoning for using the Saber Throw talents, but I do not see why Discblade technique should provide Melee, when the Discblade already is a thrown weapon, and the reason for adding the Saber Throw talents are there mainly to increase the range of a thrown weapon (and let it return to hand by use of the Force). It smacks of synergy maximisation, which can make sense, but I do not think it suits the Zeison Sha particularly well. It makes more sense to me that Discblade technique provides Ranged (Light), and as a boost, it allows them to replace Melee/Brawl with Ranged (Light) in engaged range with the Discblade, it is after all a Force talent.

I think you have too many telekinetic parries. Also, Telekinetic Parry Supreme is unnecessary.

Your division of the tree so clearly into two segments means that most of the upper right side will ignored, whereas the left side is too obvious the route to go, which I'd say is a poor design - and doesn't lend itself well to the notion of training and learning within that tradition at a sensible pace. Within 30 XP after gaining the specialisation, you have discblade technique, saber throw and saber throw improved, add another 10, and you can reduce incoming damage for 3 strain, no other requirements (a bonus that can be acquired for 15XP on your tree, if you also need the skills of the Insight talent).

I mean, I see that the specialisation should be more focused than a generic one. And I like your take, except Telekinetic Parry Supreme and your solution for Discblade technique (and saber throw instead of a more specialised discblade throw), as already mentioned.

I'm also considering making a version that has a requirement for a FR of 1 (or 2), instead of providing FR of 1. Give some bonus career skills, and replace some of those skill talents. It becomes less accessible, but one can warrant more powerful talents. If we are to consider them as "knights", as in proper initiate Zeison Sha, it could make more sense that they require FR rather than provide one - but it depends on whether it's a neophyte vs a proper initiate we're looking at.

How's this?

Zeizon sha (grants FR1)

Disk Blade Technique Insight. Survivor. Grit

| | |

Saber Throw---------------Telekinetic Parry--------Constant vigilance ------outdoorsman

| |

Saber Throw (Improved)--------Grit ------------------Natural Hunter-------expert tracker

| |

Toughened------------------Telekinetic Parry --Telekinetic Parry (improved) Forager

| |

Force Rating------------practiced Telekinetic-----Telekinetic Parry-------------Dedication

*telekinetic parry: force talent: out of turn incidental,when hit by a melee attack, spend 3 strain to reduce damage by 2 plus ranks in telekinetic parry

*telekinetic parry (improved): force talent: may also use telekinetic parry to reduce damage from ranged attacks

*practiced telekinetic: force talent: add O 🌑 to move and bind force power checks and the saber throw and saber throw (improved) force talent checks

* Disk blade technique: Ranged(Light) becomes a career skill for the character, additionally the character may use the saber throw and saber throw (improved) talents with any Ranged(Light) thrown weapons using the Ranged (Light) skill instead of Lightsaber .

* Survivor: Vigilance & survival become career skills for the character

2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

How's this?

Zeizon sha (grants FR1)

Disk Blade Technique Insight. Survivor. Grit

| | |

Saber Throw---------------Telekinetic Parry--------Constant vigilance ------outdoorsman

| |

Saber Throw (Improved)--------Grit ------------------Natural Hunter-------expert tracker

| |

Toughened------------------Telekinetic Parry --Telekinetic Parry (improved) Forager

| |

Force Rating------------practiced Telekinetic-----Telekinetic Parry-------------Dedication

*telekinetic parry: force talent: out of turn incidental,when hit by a melee attack, spend 3 strain to reduce damage by 2 plus ranks in telekinetic parry

*telekinetic parry (improved): force talent: may also use telekinetic parry to reduce damage from ranged attacks

*practiced telekinetic: force talent: add O 🌑 to move and bind force power checks and the saber throw and saber throw (improved) force talent checks

* Disk blade technique: Ranged(Light) becomes a career skill for the character, additionally the character may use the saber throw and saber throw (improved) talents with any Ranged(Light) thrown weapons using the Ranged (Light) skill instead of Lightsaber .

* Survivor: Vigilance & survival become career skills for the character

I like it. Ignoring where we disagree, I think this is a decent build.

I might have slashed the link from Insight to Telekinetic Parry, and added one between Grit and Outdoorsman. Then I'd move the link between Forager and Dedication to Practices Telekinetic and the TP above.

Discblade technique is now pretty awesome, it means you can throw grenades and everything up to long range (and make them return ) with Saber Throw (Improved) .

I see where you are going here, I may borrow some of them ideas you have here.

So I ran with some of Elias' ideas. Here's my latest .

1 hour ago, Jegergryte said:

So I ran with some of Elias' ideas. Here's my latest .

Disk blade throw and disk blade mastery together are overpowered (it's like saber swarm and Hawkbatswoop but can also add successes) .... one or the other preferably mastery renamed to disk blade throw.

Borrowing back, how's this?

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

Disk blade throw and disk blade mastery together are overpowered (it's like saber swarm and Hawkbatswoop but can also add successes) .... one or the other preferably mastery renamed to disk blade throw.

Discblade Throw is not Saber Swarm - which adds Linked = FR - it's Auto-fire (much less powerful - I'm joking ) with the increased difficulty. You could require additional [FP], but I'm not a fan of that.

Discblade Mastery is more similar to Intuitive Shot - and (in my version) limited to only Discblades, not any Ranged (Light) weapon.

But sure, it's a powerful, even over-powered, combo.

One way to deal with that is requiring Discblade Throw to have a [FO] committed, thereby reducing available [FO] to use with Discblade Mastery. Also, remember that Saber Throw requires [FP] to activate, and additional [FP] to return to hand (unless I'm reading those talents incorrectly). Only a FR of 2 is a guarantee for a normal Saber Throw to both connect and return to hand (not using it at Long range) - if one [FO] is needed to be committed to gain the Auto-fire quality, you're back to first base. Just saying. But at high-XP play, it may become an issue sure, but you'd need FR of 3, perhaps 4, before it becomes too silly. There are however far easier ways to get a lot more silly, for fewer XP.

You could also limit Discblade Mastery to Discblade Throw, so no usage with Saber Throw... only when attempting auto-firing. The synergy is of course silly.

15 hours ago, Jegergryte said:

Discblade Throw is not Saber Swarm - which adds Linked = FR - it's Auto-fire (much less powerful - I'm joking ) with the increased difficulty. You could require additional [FP], but I'm not a fan of that.

Discblade Mastery is more similar to Intuitive Shot - and (in my version) limited to only Discblades, not any Ranged (Light) weapon.

But sure, it's a powerful, even over-powered, combo.

One way to deal with that is requiring Discblade Throw to have a [FO] committed, thereby reducing available [FO] to use with Discblade Mastery. Also, remember that Saber Throw requires [FP] to activate, and additional [FP] to return to hand (unless I'm reading those talents incorrectly). Only a FR of 2 is a guarantee for a normal Saber Throw to both connect and return to hand (not using it at Long range) - if one [FO] is needed to be committed to gain the Auto-fire quality, you're back to first base. Just saying. But at high-XP play, it may become an issue sure, but you'd need FR of 3, perhaps 4, before it becomes too silly. There are however far easier ways to get a lot more silly, for fewer XP.

You could also limit Discblade Mastery to Discblade Throw, so no usage with Saber Throw... only when attempting auto-firing. The synergy is of course silly.

Still not something that I would do.

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

Still not something that I would do.

Fair enough.

Summer holiday here. So. I've played around some more with the Jensaarai .

I made a decision, for anyone interested in running a Jensaarai focused game, to make two Jensaarai specialisations, Apprentice and Defender. Inspired by the RoS and CoR, I've added a requirement to these specialisations, so they do no longer give the character a Force rating.

Just when I thought you wonderful folks were done with these : ) That only has the Apprentice, is there a final version of the Defender as well or is the Seventh version from previously it?