So. While the Jensaarai could easily be the Armorer from KtP, I made an over-powered first attempt at a special force tradition specialisation for them - mostly to inform a custom tradition of my own that is loosely based on the Jensaarai, but "different."

It is, as evident, based on the Armorer talent tree.

It provides you with a Force Rating of 1, so no career skills (hence the few career skill talents).

There are, I feel, too many Body guard talents (consider them fillers, and please provide suggestions), I'm also considering replacing Reinforce Item with something suitable (suggestions?).

The Force Cloak talents are a first sketch, but I like them.

If someone would have a go at the Zeison Sha, I'd encourage you.

What about insteadnof whole new treesnyou instead make an alternate version of the tree. Ie a janserai version of armorer. For example? Pickna tree thatnis closest to the tradition you are modeling and then make an alternate version that fits better...

14 hours ago, DarthKaage said:

I have been watching with great interest, thanks for the hard work. If we are calling the Matukai complete, I might have a suggestion. I have always been interested in a blaster wielding force-sensitive. How about a Universal for the Teepo Paladin / Gray Paladin? In my mind I have been using Executioner / Gunslinger, but they seem to be able to do some cool stuff that might interest you in making a Universal for it. I also really like the Fallanassi, but I am not sure if there is enough there for a spec.

Ill look into it, but Have you looked at hunter? The intuitive shot talent seems to go a long way towards it. What other abilities should he have?

4 hours ago, Daeglan said:

What about insteadnof whole new treesnyou instead make an alternate version of the tree. Ie a janserai version of armorer. For example? Pickna tree thatnis closest to the tradition you are modeling and then make an alternate version that fits better...

That's kind of been my approach.

15 hours ago, Jegergryte said:

So. While the Jensaarai could easily be the Armorer from KtP, I made an over-powered first attempt at a special force tradition specialisation for them - mostly to inform a custom tradition of my own that is loosely based on the Jensaarai, but "different."

It is, as evident, based on the Armorer talent tree.

It provides you with a Force Rating of 1, so no career skills (hence the few career skill talents).

There are, I feel, too many Body guard talents (consider them fillers, and please provide suggestions), I'm also considering placingmoving Reinforce Item with something suitable (suggestions?).

The Force Cloak talents are a first sketch, but I like them.

If someone would have a go at the Zeison Sha, I'd encourage you.

Ok... I think jensarri should have a second rank of parry, 1 rank of reflect, and a ballistalkinetics talent.

I would have ballistalkinetics modify the hurl upgrade to the move power so that damage for a hurled silhouette 0 object determined as the base 5 plus 2 per strength upgrade activated.

I've been thinking about zeizon sha... "telekinetic parry" is a ranked talent (probably 4 ranks) that works like normal parry except that you don't need to be holding a weapon, improved telekinetic parry makes the ranks apply to ranged attacks as well, supreme telekinetic parry reduces the strain cost to 2 or 1 if they haven't attacked in the previous round

Disk blade technique, grants lightsaber as a career skill and allows a disk blade be used with the lightsaber skill (similar to an ancient sword).

Lightsaber throw, lightsaber throw (improved), and maybe a TBD lightsaber throw (supreme) talent (don't know what it does)

A talent like empty soul, i.e. one free white and dark pip but for only for the move and bind force powers and lightsaber throw chain of talents.

Skill talents (lightsaber, discipline, survival, vigilance, maybe one other)

A force rating, dedicated, a bunch of grit, and the rest would be survival related talents.

The Move power is sufficient - I think - to cover the ballistakinesis power. Using talents to modify force powers is unprecedented isn't it? I haven't memorised all the books yet (shame on me). And while that may not be sufficient reason, I find your suggested mechanic too fiddly. So, here we will probably not come to agreement. But please, do elaborate.

A second rank of parry and one rank of reflect? Yeah, I thought about that too. The version I made after the one posted above does include one rank of reflect. I'm considering removing the Armor master supreme ability, because room needs to be made.

I did think about adding starting skills, and only a increase force rating talent - thus the player would need some force using bakcground specialisation to make full use of this specialisation. I am however uncertain. It is quite powerful as is, and adding three more talents (i.e. replacing the three career skill granting talents), would make it even sweeter.

I could replace the Armor Master supreme with another Parry talent, it's expensive, but that's fine, you want that dedication anyway. AM supreme is nice, and very thematic with the Jensaarai's armour focus, however I feel that Reinforce Item is more thematically fitting here - perhaps one could merge the ideas of them somehow: Attuned Armor: commit [Force Dice] up to Force rating for 1 strain per force die per round, reduce critical hit by 10 per force dice committed... It's not as beardy as cortosis , but it is more than once per round, so therefore cooler than AM supreme...

I like your thinking on the Zeison Sha.

2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Ok... I think jensarri should have a second rank of parry, 1 rank of reflect, and a ballistalkinetics talent.

I would have ballistalkinetics modify the hurl upgrade to the move power so that damage for a hurled silhouette 0 object determined as the base 5 plus 2 per strength upgrade activated.

I've been thinking about zeizon sha... "telekinetic parry" is a ranked talent (probably 4 ranks) that works like normal parry except that you don't need to be holding a weapon, improved telekinetic parry makes the ranks apply to ranged attacks as well, supreme telekinetic parry reduces the strain cost to 2 or 1 if they haven't attacked in the previous round

Disk blade technique, grants lightsaber as a career skill and allows a disk blade be used with the lightsaber skill (similar to an ancient sword).

Lightsaber throw, lightsaber throw (improved), and maybe a TBD lightsaber throw (supreme) talent (don't know what it does)

A talent like empty soul, i.e. one free white and dark pip but for only for the move and bind force powers and lightsaber throw chain of talents.

Skill talents (lightsaber, discipline, survival, vigilance, maybe one other)

A force rating, dedicated, a bunch of grit, and the rest would be survival related talents.

Wow is ballistakenisis over powered. We already have people complaining about hurl as it is.

3 hours ago, Jegergryte said:

The Move power is sufficient - I think - to cover the ballistakinesis power. Using talents to modify force powers is unprecedented isn't it? I haven't memorised all the books yet (shame on me). And while that may not be sufficient reason, I find your suggested mechanic too fiddly. So, here we will probably not come to agreement. But please, do elaborate.

A second rank of parry and one rank of reflect? Yeah, I thought about that too. The version I made after the one posted above does include one rank of reflect. I'm considering removing the Armor master supreme ability, because room needs to be made.

I did think about adding starting skills, and only a increase force rating talent - thus the player would need some force using bakcground specialisation to make full use of this specialisation. I am however uncertain. It is quite powerful as is, and adding three more talents (i.e. replacing the three career skill granting talents), would make it even sweeter.

I could replace the Armor Master supreme with another Parry talent, it's expensive, but that's fine, you want that dedication anyway. AM supreme is nice, and very thematic with the Jensaarai's armour focus, however I feel that Reinforce Item is more thematically fitting here - perhaps one could merge the ideas of them somehow: Attuned Armor: commit [Force Dice] up to Force rating for 1 strain per force die per round, reduce critical hit by 10 per force dice committed... It's not as beardy as cortosis , but it is more than once per round, so therefore cooler than AM supreme...

I like your thinking on the Zeison Sha.

If you're commiting a force die, I have no problem with cortosis.

47 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

If you're commiting a force die, I have no problem with cortosis.

Yeah. No. Reinforce Item does that for two force dice (at a 3 strain per round price tag). My suggestion is one force die, as a scalable version of Armor Mastery Supreme (AMS), at lower strain cost. Off the cuff it is not as good as AMS in crit reduction (AMS reduces crit = 10 per point of soak - so easily -50 to crit if you have 2 brawn and are wearing Laminate with the armor mastery talent), but it is not limited to once per round, and at higher force ratings it become quite good, despite the strain cost. Looking at it now though, perhaps the crit reduction should be 20 times the committed force dice... hm... it needs a re-think perhaps.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Wow is ballistakenisis over powered. We already have people complaining about hurl as it is.

RAW is Silhouette 0 is 5 pts of damage, Silhouette 1 is 10 points of damage, silhouette 2 is 20.

Let's say you have all 4 strength upgrades and you activate them twice so spent 3 white pips against a target in short range then you're doing 5+4x2x2= 21 when you could have done about the same damage with 2 white pips and only 2 strength upgrades by chucking a speeder bike or other sil 2 object at them and saved yourself 60 xp (25+15+20, assuming ballistalkinetics is a 25 xp talent) the primary advantage you're buying is sil 0 objects are everywhere and sil 2 objects aren't. But since you could hurl that minimum group into the ceiling with the 2 white pips (counting a minion group as sil 2) and then let them take falling damage as a rider, that's not actually an advantage. So the advantage is then that someone might not see pebble size objects being hurlef and they would see a larger object being hurled. I was worried about it being under powered but maybe there's a statistical reason it would he more uber than normal hurl that I missed in my analyses?

So. Here's a second and a third version of the Jensaarai specialisation. Some shuffling has been done.

29 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

RAW is Silhouette 0 is 5 pts of damage, Silhouette 1 is 10 points of damage, silhouette 2 is 20.

Let's say you have all 4 strength upgrades and you activate them twice so spent 3 white pips against a target in short range then you're doing 5+4x2x2= 21 when you could have done about the same damage with 2 white pips and only 2 strength upgrades by chucking a speeder bike or other sil 2 object at them and saved yourself 60 xp (25+15+20, assuming ballistalkinetics is a 25 xp talent) the primary advantage you're buying is sil 0 objects are everywhere and sil 2 objects aren't. But since you could hurl that minimum group into the ceiling with the 2 white pips (counting a minion group as sil 2) and then let them take falling damage as a rider, that's not actually an advantage. So the advantage is then that someone might not see pebble size objects being hurlef and they would see a larger object being hurled. I was worried about it being under powered but maybe there's a statistical reason it would he more uber than normal hurl that I missed in my analyses?

why would you spend 25 xp on something you have to get to the bottom of the tree to get when you can just buy move? it is suppose to be cheaper than move. but buy the time you get to the bottom of the tree you may as well have bought move. in fact you can start hurling stuff sooner using move. so if you want to do ballistikenisis you would be better off buying move.

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

why would you spend 25 xp on something you have to get to the bottom of the tree to get when you can just buy move? it is suppose to be cheaper than move. but buy the time you get to the bottom of the tree you may as well have bought move. in fact you can start hurling stuff sooner using move. so if you want to do ballistikenisis you would be better off buying move.

It's not one or the other, it's both, if you don't have move hurl it's useless to you because it modifies the behavior of move to give an ability closer to the lore.

I've always thought that the silhouette upgrades (strength is it) in Move when used with the attack control upgrade means a narrative mass equal to a higher silhouette than 0. Sure, that could mean hurling landspeeders, but it could also mean hurling lots and lots of sand, or whatever. Admittedly, I tend not to get bogged down in details I guess. 😆 The narrative is sacrosanct 😈

12 minutes ago, Jegergryte said:

I've always thought that the silhouette upgrades (strength is it) in Move when used with the attack control upgrade means a narrative mass equal to a higher silhouette than 0. Sure, that could mean hurling landspeeders, but it could also mean hurling lots and lots of sand, or whatever. Admittedly, I tend not to get bogged down in details I guess. 😆 The narrative is sacrosanct 😈

No... the was a dev ruling/clarification on that... RAW damage is strictly by silhouette

1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

No... the was a dev ruling/clarification on that... RAW damage is strictly by silhouette

Easily disregarding that clarification in my home games. Perhaps not in con-games if confronted with a worse pedant than me. But to me it makes sense to allow someone to throw a chunk of sand or earth or whatever as silhouette 1 or 2 if they have the strength upgrades, particularly if there are no suitable object of that silhouette nearby. It is hurled as a single chunk and as a single effort. It's cinematic, cool, and therefore awesome sauce and acceptable in my game. It changes nothing as far as I'm concerned.

Either way, I'm not convinced about the necessity of such a talent. If you're already going to have to buy Move to make use of the talent, then I see no need for this. Whether one considers it over-powered or not.

What I would like though, and perhaps there is a talent for that in the game that I've overlooked, is a version of Bodyguard that doesn't require the character protected to be at engaged range. I'd like one that increases defence or upgrades difficulty attacking the protected character up to short range.

32 minutes ago, Jegergryte said:

What I would like though, and perhaps there is a talent for that in the game that I've overlooked, is a version of Bodyguard that doesn't require the character protected to be at engaged range. I'd like one that increases defence or upgrades difficulty attacking the protected character up to short range.

Take a look a strategic form in the soresu defender tree.

37 minutes ago, Jegergryte said:

Easily disregarding that clarification in my home games. Perhaps not in con-games if confronted with a worse pedant than me. But to me it makes sense to allow someone to throw a chunk of sand or earth or whatever as silhouette 1 or 2 if they have the strength upgrades, particularly if there are no suitable object of that silhouette nearby. It is hurled as a single chunk and as a single effort. It's cinematic, cool, and therefore awesome sauce and acceptable in my game. It changes nothing as far as I'm concerned.

Either way, I'm not convinced about the necessity of such a talent. If you're already going to have to buy Move to make use of the talent, then I see no need for this. Whether one considers it over-powered or not.

The reason to have it modify move rather than be it's own thing was so you could use it during force assault from the niman-disciple tree.

On 6/29/2020 at 6:47 AM, DarthKaage said:

I have been watching with great interest, thanks for the hard work. If we are calling the Matukai complete, I might have a suggestion. I have always been interested in a blaster wielding force-sensitive. How about a Universal for the Teepo Paladin / Gray Paladin? In my mind I have been using Executioner / Gunslinger, but they seem to be able to do some cool stuff that might interest you in making a Universal for it. I also really like the Fallanassi, but I am not sure if there is enough there for a spec.

The only info I have on teepo paladins is from wookieepedia, and from that I don't see what's not handle in the seeker:hunter's intuitive shot talent. What other abilities are teepo's paladins supposed to have?

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

The reason to have it modify move rather than be it's own thing was so you could use it during force assault from the niman-disciple tree.

Ah. I see. Still not convinced it's necessary, or even desirable beyond munchkining. Which is fine, if it floats your boat.

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

Take a look a strategic form in the soresu defender tree.

Thanks. I'll have a look see.

Strategic Form isn't bad, but I believe Defensive Circle is more suitable. Perhaps instead of Bodyguard (Supreme). Nice. Thanks for directions.

EDIT: However, both seem to require Soresu Technique to be used. Perhaps Circle of Shelter is the next best thing, it doesn't really fit with what I'm looking for, but it is more flavour than "just" a bunch of Bodyguard talents...

Or I could put in Renegade Form somewhere ... 🦐 that would allow them to choose Intellect ... or I could make something new...

Nah. It's getting to late for this. HmHmHm...

Before I start the tree layout, I wanted to get feedback on this list of talents

zeizon sha (grants FR1)

1) constant vigilance

3) grit x2

6) * telekinetic parry x3

7) * telekinetic parry (improved)

8 )* telekinetic parry (supreme)

9) * instinctive telekinetic

10) Dedication

11) Force rating

12) * Disk blade technique:

13) saber throw

14) saber throw improved

15) Insight (discipline & perception)

16) * survivor: Vigilance & survival become career skills

17) Natural Hunter

18) expert tracker

19) outdoorsman

20) Forager

*telekinetic parry: force talent: out of turn incidental,when hit by a melee attack, spend 3 strain to reduce damage by 2 plus ranks in telekinetic parry

*telekinetic parry (improved): force talent: may also use telekinetic parry to reduce damage from ranged attacks

*telekinetic parry (supreme): force talent: telekinesis parry costs 2 instead of 3 strain to use or 1 strain if the character did not attack on their previous turn.

*instinctive telekinetic: force talent: add O 🌑 to move and bind force power checks and the saber throw and saber throw (improved) force talent checks

* Disk blade technique: Lightsaber becomes a career skill for the character and he may use a disk blade with the lightsaber skill

* Survivor: Vigilance & survival become career skills for the character

Is there already a talent named survivor? Is there any talent that Grant's vigilance and survival as career skills?

17 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

The only info I have on teepo paladins is from wookieepedia, and from that I don't see what's not handle in the seeker:hunter's intuitive shot talent. What other abilities are teepo's paladins supposed to have?

So, they are basically Blaster wielding Jedi. They believe all weapons should be tools for the job which includes both lightsabers and blasters and anything else they want to use at the time. Their most notable powers is the ability to intercept blaster bolts, slugs and shrapnel with their own blaster fire. They liked to voluntarily blindfold themselves and use the force to guide their aim.

I did look at the Hunter, and although that talent is nice most of the tree seems heavily focused on tracking which does not read as a Teepo at all. They really are a Jedi Gunslinger and I was looking for something along those lines. In lieu of a Tree I think I will stick with a Gunslinger / Executioner.

I am also really enjoying the Jensaari discussion and eagly await a finished tree. You guys are awesome, I am crap and doing this sort of thing.

So I've been messing around with the Jensaarai some more, here , here , here , and here .

As for for the Zeison Sha:

I'm not sure why the Diskblade should be used with the Lighsaber skill. It's a thrown weapon, potentially usable as a melee (even a brawl?) weapon. I guess this is a synergy with the throw lightsaber talents, but these can easily be reskinned, which I think would be more appropriate..., I see your reasoning for it, but I'm uncertain I'd slap these weapons into the Lightsaber skill.

I'm also uncertain about Instinctive telekinesis (or telekinetic).