1 hour ago, Managarmr said:

And please no /d with double attack, that was cancer.

but would it be more or less cancer than the defender we got, with free evades and low damage output?

and what if it had to be two different targets?

TIE Defenders almost had me quit X-wing as soon as I took it up. That said I'd think TIE Defenders and Phoenix squadron and generally more mining of Rebels animated would be a good way to go with reprints. Pelta for Epic? I'd flat out be interested in a Hera B-wing even though I'm generally not all that keen on re-paints.

44 minutes ago, svelok said:

but would it be more or less cancer than the defender we got, with free evades and low damage output?

and what if it had to be two different targets?

I worked this up about a month ago. You either need to sell out for offense, or stay defensive. If you are going to double tap at high initiative, you don't get your evade or your third green die for defense. If you plan to double tap at low initiative, you need to weather all the attacks without spending the evade.

Spending the evade also disables "Juke"-ing on both attacks or doubling up on Rexlar's ability. Gaining the strain discourages the 4K, as it will not clear the red token. Also, restricting it, if you didn't get your evade action, no double tap. Basically, you're either a TIE Defender or a TIE Offender, not both.

Thoughts?

2 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I worked this up about a month ago. You either need to sell out for offense, or stay defensive. If you are going to double tap at high initiative, you don't get your evade or your third green die for defense. If you plan to double tap at low initiative, you need to weather all the attacks without spending the evade.

Spending the evade also disables "Juke"-ing on both attacks or doubling up on Rexlar's ability. Gaining the strain discourages the 4K, as it will not clear the red token. Also, restricting it, if you didn't get your evade action, no double tap. Basically, you're either a TIE Defender or a TIE Offender, not both.

Thoughts?

I feel like this could work, but I’d be concerned about turns where the ship is clearly not being shot at. Doing the blue maneuver may be just fine the following turn to have no consequences. Then again, that’s the benefit of positioning well.

I am not overly enthusiastic about the /D platform, but a fair cost makes it an option.

19 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Thoughts?

I hate it, immensely.

It would be adding a massive buff to the Defender by allowing it to decide, at engagement , whether it wants the defense or the double tap. This does nothing to ameliorate the end-game objective of the Defender, where it just tanks up after scoring points - in fact it makes it worse, by massively buffing and therefore making the platform even more expensive - it just allows it to reach that point faster.

Any replacement of Full Throttle that leaves in-game choice on a turn-to-turn basis doesn't actually address what makes Full Throttle unhealthy on the platform. I think negative cost configs would be considerably worse for the game than leaving Defenders overpriced, so I really don't see any way to "fix" the Defender platform other than releasing an entirely alternate "ship name" variant instead ("TIE Defender Elite"?) with a different or no ship ability.

Overall, I don't think the double-taps have a place in the game.

If FFG gave the people what they seem to want, and had a config with "You cannot perform Evade actions" plus essentially the B-Wing Config text (spend a lock for a bonus attack), I'd shrug it off.

I'm not so down on the current Defender design, but at very least, any double-tap tricks should be exclusive with Full Throttle from the start of the game.

6 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

plus essentially the B-Wing Config text (spend a lock for a bonus attack), I'd shrug it off.

This was what I was trying to accomplish this with the "spend an evade" text. The main difference being that the B-Wing doesn't get a free lock for doing a predictable maneuver. That was why I added the strain, as well. Cannon double taps (via Stabilized S-Foils or IG-88B) haven't been especially strong, but I understand the wariness towards it.

Well if they go with paint jobs from Rebels on a reissue TIE Defender they could dial the ship back fluff wise as still being a prototype without all the kinks worked out.

5 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Overall, I don't think the double-taps have a place in the game.

If FFG gave the people what they seem to want, and had a config with "You cannot perform Evade actions" plus essentially the B-Wing Config text (spend a lock for a bonus attack), I'd shrug it off.

I'm not so down on the current Defender design, but at very least, any double-tap tricks should be exclusive with Full Throttle from the start of the game.

Small base ships without a turret and without a gunner and/or without crew especially shouldn't get double taps.

I think the Defenders biggest problem by far is that it’s entire design, even possible fixes, are stuck so firmly in a 1.0 mentality.

There is no other ship that I wish had been rebuilt ground up as something more completely different, interesting, and unique than the Defender. Stat line, dial, ship ability, all of it.

Just now, 5050Saint said:

This was what I was trying to accomplish this with the "spend an evade" text. The main difference being that the B-Wing doesn't get a free lock for doing a predictable maneuver. That was why I added the strain, as well. Cannon double taps (via Stabilized S-Foils or IG-88B) haven't been especially strong, but I understand the wariness towards it.

But like, can't you see the immense power of the combination of:

• "I'm safe this turn because I did a 4-K and can spend my evade and take a strain and it won't matter"
• "My opponent has 4 guns on me this turn, I guess I'll use the evade for defense"
  • It goes further. On an Init 1, it's really easy to have a turn where the Evade just went unspent, and you can just light up the double-tap after everyone attacks.

It's basically no cost double-taps, since the Evade from FT doesn't cost you your normal action.

Meanwhile, Ten and Braylen with double-taps have been pretty solid. Less-so generics, but giving a tanky defender a way to switch from turn-to-turn between double-mod defenses and double-tap attacks would just be absurdly strong.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

I think the Defenders biggest problem by far is that it’s entire design, even possible fixes, are stuck so firmly in a 1.0 mentality.

There is no other ship that I wish had been rebuilt ground up as something more completely different, interesting, and unique than the Defender. Stat line, dial, ship ability, all of it.

I think there are quite a number of things in 2nd Edition that are still stuck in 1st Edition thinking. Can't say though I hate what's happened to the Defender any more than I can say I hate what's happened to Dash. Of course that same truck ran over Ghost and I do hate that.

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

This was what I was trying to accomplish this with the "spend an evade" text. The main difference being that the B-Wing doesn't get a free lock for doing a predictable maneuver. That was why I added the strain, as well. Cannon double taps (via Stabilized S-Foils or IG-88B) haven't been especially strong, but I understand the wariness towards it.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Overall, I don't think the double-taps have a place in the game.

"Lose full throttle, you can double tap but it has to be a different target" would be an upgrade I wouldn't be mad at. But it wouldn't ever be worth taking unless the price was negative, so...

Different-target double-taps are fine, and I kinda wish there were more of them.

Like, I wish Veteran Turret Gunner was written in such a way as you couldn't "double-front."

10 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I think there are quite a number of things in 2nd Edition that are still stuck in 1st Edition thinking. Can't say though I hate what's happened to the Defender any more than I can say I hate what's happened to Dash. Of course that same truck ran over Ghost and I do hate that.

This. Also:

Dev1: So, what next up. OK, G1A. Mmmm....*long pause*.... what about let's make it a medium base and make the dial even worse?

Dev2: Cool, soooo many reds. Perfect to let 4Lom pass off the stress again. But what do the other pilots do?

Dev1: *shrugs* We print it anyway that way.

7 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

This. Also:

Dev1: So, what next up. OK, G1A. Mmmm....*long pause*.... what about let's make it a medium base and make the dial even worse?

Dev2: Cool, soooo many reds. Perfect to let 4Lom pass off the stress again. But what do the other pilots do?

Dev1: *shrugs* We print it anyway that way.

Gand should have had Force charges (probably not Force Talents, though). Literally no other differences from their current versions, but if Gand Findsmen and Zuckuss should have had a single force charge, which allows them to have a jacked-up price. As is, they're just so much worse than Kimogilas and ARCs and Scurrgs and other similar medium base brawlers.

38 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Gand should have had Force charges (probably not Force Talents, though). Literally no other differences from their current versions, but if Gand Findsmen and Zuckuss should have had a single force charge, which allows them to have a jacked-up price. As is, they're just so much worse than Kimogilas and ARCs and Scurrgs and other similar medium base brawlers.

Much as I want to defend my G-1A homies, I can’t really argue here. I still need to make the Scurrg work for me but the Kimo is an absolute sleeper. Torani Railgun goes brrrrt . (Also love my ARCs. If the B&N sale had included them, I’d have a fourth.)

I’ve recently started eyeing the Jam action as a possible inroad to getting more value out of lesser G-1As. (4-LOM’s fine, for the most part.) There’s not a lot of mid-priced white Jams out there, unless I’m forgetting something; so that could represent a way to tap the G-1A’s uniqueness. The dial remains a huge impediment to getting actions at all, of course. L3-37 can help but you gotta set her up.

The question is if there’s a place in some list somewhere for a low-I jammer that can throw 3 reds and might take a sec to burn down? I have to think there could be. For the right cost, anyway. Don’t ask me what the list is, though...

(Would I1 G-1As break the game if they were cheaper than Khiraxz? Would Five. Cartel. Marauders. still be relevant if put against Five. Gand. Findsmen. + One. Mining. TIE. ?)

5 hours ago, CoffeeMinion said:

(Would I1 G-1As break the game if they were cheaper than Khiraxz? Would Five. Cartel. Marauders. still be relevant if put against Five. Gand. Findsmen. + One. Mining. TIE. ?)

I don't see that happening for much the same reason as FFG gave for not pricing the Blue Squad B-Wings down to 40pts. Too much cumulative hp to chew through.

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

I don't see that happening for much the same reason as FFG gave for not pricing the Blue Squad B-Wings down to 40pts. Too much cumulative hp to chew through.

What about Five. TIE. Reapers?

7 minutes ago, Des Darklighter said:

What about Five. TIE. Reapers?

Ask them about their reasoning behind that one.

7 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Ask them about their reasoning behind that one.

"If a player can get all five of them pointing at the same target in a single round, they deserve to win."

I've found Reapers to be incredibly difficult to use well due to their ailerons. Attempting to fly five at once would cause my brain to explode. The hull/shield ratio isn't terribly favourable, especially behind a single green die.

19 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

But like, can't you see the immense power of the combination of:

• "I'm safe this turn because I did a 4-K and can spend my evade and take a strain and it won't matter"
• "My opponent has 4 guns on me this turn, I guess I'll use the evade for defense"
  • It goes further. On an Init 1, it's really easy to have a turn where the Evade just went unspent, and you can just light up the double-tap after everyone attacks.

It's basically no cost double-taps, since the Evade from FT doesn't cost you your normal action.

Meanwhile, Ten and Braylen with double-taps have been pretty solid. Less-so generics, but giving a tanky defender a way to switch from turn-to-turn between double-mod defenses and double-tap attacks would just be absurdly strong.

What if spending the evade and gaining a strain was still in play but, unlike other configuration changes, it required an action to change the config? or was still in the system phase but prevent you from doing any actions that turn. Preventing you from changing each turn and having to make those changes a few turns ahead, or committing to a state of defence or offence.

35 minutes ago, Tyhar7 said:

What if spending the evade and gaining a strain was still in play but, unlike other configuration changes, it required an action to change the config? or was still in the system phase but prevent you from doing any actions that turn. Preventing you from changing each turn and having to make those changes a few turns ahead, or committing to a state of defence or offence.

I still think it's bad. Anything this powerful ought to be a Gunboat or Aethersprite style configuration, where you pick what your ship is going to do at the start of the game, rather than an X-Wing style config. The best designed configs (both Xs, U) have mostly been movement-related ones. Lose something for better positioning.

Lore-wise, I think it makes sense. Many configurations are about flight modes. How the wings are positioned, etc. That doesn't make sense for Defenders. TIE Defender Elite is more like Starwings, where the difference between the configurations is something done in the factory or at least the hangar bay, rather than while flying a combat sortie.

Here's the thing: THIS IS GOOD. It's great for listbuilding when a ship like an Aethersprite or a TIE/sf can be brought in 3-attack and 2-attack variants, that gives a lot more options to someone putting a list together. Delta 7B is probably underpriced, Special Forces Gunner probably overpriced, but two-in-one ships like this are sweet.

The TIE Defender right now knows how to do one thing very well. Tank up. That's already something worthwhile. I'd rather see it have the option of being an entirely different ship, rather than ramping up the power level.

I think the revealed upcoming kit has the best answer for the Defender; whatever they give it has to replace the Full Throttle ship ability entirely. The alteration granted there changes the ability to granting the TIE Defender a free focus or target lock action rather than an evade action. Admittedly, this requires multiple XP to be gained and likely isn't intended to be 'balanced' in a usual game. I'm not certain I like the idea of giving the Defender a double-tap, as even without a free evade it is still a three-attack, three-agility, four shield platform which can equip FCS and turn around with no action penalty.

9 hours ago, AceDogbert said:

"If a player can get all five of them pointing at the same target in a single round, they deserve to win."

I've found Reapers to be incredibly difficult to use well due to their ailerons. Attempting to fly five at once would cause my brain to explode. The hull/shield ratio isn't terribly favourable, especially behind a single green die.

Definitely agreed. I flew it once, found that coordinating daisy chains helped slow down when I needed to. It’s hard to point them at the same target and keep them there, but it’s definitely possible. Not sure how it would fare in a swarm meta though.

I'm down with this wave.

What's better though is that there will be more.