On 1/14/2020 at 9:47 PM, Crolug said:

Guys, there's a pattern on the market for years. Look what ZeniMax did to Bethesda, EA to BioWare, Activision to Blizzard, what now Asmodee is doing to FFG. Soon it will be just an empty shell of its former self, like all the others legend companies taken over by big buck.

Erm, hate to rob you of an illusion, but while Bethesda Softworks, ZeniMax Media, Bethesda Game Studios and ZeniMax Online Studios are different entities within the corporate structure for legal reasons, they all share an origin (with Altman as CEO since 1999), unlike actual acquisitions by them like id Software and Arkane Studios or the other examples you're citing there.

23 hours ago, Mep said:

I doubt Team Covenant knew exactly when this was coming but we all knew this was coming. Destiny hasn't been doing well at all and with the layoffs, will all the marginal and under preforming games are pretty much done. So yeah, people should be scared for Armada and Keyforge. I wouldn't go blaming Team Covenant for all of this either, even the presales. Chances are those products were ordered and paid for by TC and people did make a commitment to buy. I do blame FFG for making this announcement right before their last set hits the shelves and most likely after stores already purchased their stock. Why even make an announcement at all and not before your last set hits the street. There will be a lot of stores stuck with this dead set.

I'm going to still disagree about TC knowing or not knowing - but I completely agree about FFG being the ultimate bad guy here. You know you're going to kill a game so you just completely take the legs out of retailers who've already purchased from distributors who've already purchased from FFG at full price. It seems almost spiteful to announce it just before the set goes on sale. I guess maybe fewer players will get screwed over by paying full price for the product?

We should've paid better attention when Asmodee was selling boxes for $20ish during the holiday sale a couple years ago but still making retailers and LGSs stick to MAP. I think the real people who got screwed on this (the timing of the announcement) were LGSs who were trying to support the game and their local communities.

On 1/16/2020 at 5:49 AM, terryfuller said:

For example, FFG developed and released Android Netrunner. It ran the tables for a few years then popped

My understanding is that WOTC pulled their license for Netrunner IP and game mechanics. The "Android" additions to the Netrunner world remains the IP of FFG which is why everything they now release is under the "Android" only imprint.

10 hours ago, Pendevil said:

My understanding is that WOTC pulled their license for Netrunner IP and game mechanics. The "Android" additions to the Netrunner world remains the IP of FFG which is why everything they now release is under the "Android" only imprint.

That was also my understanding of the situation.

I finally got into the game this Christmas, sort of. I bought a bunch of the starters and boosters boxes, that were going for 75% or more off. So I have a bunch of content, and its kind of cool opening a pack or two every week with my kids. The gameplay itself... eh, it's clean, but sooooo mechanical. The theme here is really pasted on. I'm not sure that I'd buy another booster display even if they drop to $11 again.

I suspect once the last pack is opened (only 208 more to go!!!), it won't hit the table again. Maybe the competitive aspect is the real driving force, or it could be that it just didn't click for me.

For those of you that invested early and got burned, I am really sorry, it always sucks when stuff like this happens.

Well now that the card game versus thing hasn't worked out twice for Star Wars, perhaps we can finally get the coop Star Wars LCG in the veins of the amazing LOTR or solid Arkham?

It should have been an LCG.

Well while I am not happy about another FFG living game getting the plug pulled, I didn't want this game to do so well because I didn't want randomized packs to be featured in later games, especially how we have them in just about every game now these days cough EA cough Battlefront cough 2 cough

On 1/14/2020 at 12:54 PM, Bobmc said:

They're just learning the same lesson Disney is, you can't just slap 'Star Wars' on crap and expect money to rain from the sky.

Thing is this lesson has been demonstrated even before Disney got their hands on it.

6 hours ago, Marinealver said:

It should have been an LCG.

Well while I am not happy about another FFG living game getting the plug pulled, I didn't want this game to do so well because I didn't want randomized packs to be featured in later games, especially how we have them in just about every game now these days cough EA cough Battlefront cough 2 cough

Thing is this lesson has been demonstrated even before Disney got their hands on it.

I loved SWG, played it so much and was very invested in it and when the announcement was made it was horrible for everyone

So as someone who swallowed the hook line and sinker when this game released and bought way more product than I ever should have. Then realized that I could not afford to keep buying as much product when the third wave hit so did back way off but still bought as much as I could. Then saw how fast the rotation was going to make everything I had bought unusable I quit altogether. Is there anything at all I can do with the cards and dice I have now or do I just suck it up and accept it as a lesson learned and money lost?

1 hour ago, bgrelle said:

So as someone who swallowed the hook line and sinker when this game released and bought way more product than I ever should have. Then realized that I could not afford to keep buying as much product when the third wave hit so did back way off but still bought as much as I could. Then saw how fast the rotation was going to make everything I had bought unusable I quit altogether. Is there anything at all I can do with the cards and dice I have now or do I just suck it up and accept it as a lesson learned and money lost?

You can still play the game normally. I think the game is at its best in terms of fun because of all the fan-made formats like dice commandos 40-40-40

2 hours ago, bgrelle said:

So as someone who swallowed the hook line and sinker when this game released and bought way more product than I ever should have. Then realized that I could not afford to keep buying as much product when the third wave hit so did back way off but still bought as much as I could. Then saw how fast the rotation was going to make everything I had bought unusable I quit altogether. Is there anything at all I can do with the cards and dice I have now or do I just suck it up and accept it as a lesson learned and money lost?

1 hour ago, toxic newb said:

You can still play the game normally. I think the game is at its best in terms of fun because of all the fan-made formats like dice commandos 40-40-40

True, fan formats can be awesome to play because they are made by and for the casual gamer, not the meta-heads. Still, it is by all official standards a dead game in terms of both official support and official championships. That doesn't mean you can't find players for it, it just means you will have to dig to find them. Look at Warhammer Ancient Battles ; for a dead game, it still has a very large player following.

8 hours ago, bgrelle said:

So as someone who swallowed the hook line and sinker when this game released and bought way more product than I ever should have. Then realized that I could not afford to keep buying as much product when the third wave hit so did back way off but still bought as much as I could. Then saw how fast the rotation was going to make everything I had bought unusable I quit altogether. Is there anything at all I can do with the cards and dice I have now or do I just suck it up and accept it as a lesson learned and money lost?

People are dumping collections on eBay. As someone who started late and might want to catch up on the older cards to complete my collection, I may end up buying some of those.

On 1/16/2020 at 10:58 PM, Pendevil said:

My understanding is that WOTC pulled their license for Netrunner IP and game mechanics. The "Android" additions to the Netrunner world remains the IP of FFG which is why everything they now release is under the "Android" only imprint.

That is the general conjecture at the time. What we know for certain is that the 6 year license that was signed to allow Netrunner to exist to begin with ended. The license needed to be renewed. Everyone assumed WOTC pulled the plug cause Magic was way too bigger than Netrunner and FFG clearly had all the monies to pay for a new license on a game with falling sales. It's unlikely that WOTC didn't want to cash a check. It's very likely FFG didn't have the money to write a check.

I will also state my feelings about killing off the game. I have expected that a lot sooner. That's why I avoided the game for some time. The idea of license, dice and booster pack cheaper then the one of Magic was obviously not very profitable.

I got in the game after all. I have bought the Rey/Finn starter pack and added some more cards. My wife went for Han/Chewie deck and we play casually quite often. I got my brother, his wife and some other friends in the game. Tommorow we have a game, actually.

The support is over. I suppose we will still play casually until it will cease to be fun. It will be second discontinued Star Wars card game I maintain a deck for. I have played WotC SW CCG. It was a lot better, by the way.

One thing I can't really understand. There are angry players who claims FFG doesn't communicate. I understand you are angry for different reasons. FFG communicated very well. They have announced that they are closing the game 3 months in advance. They will give you closure with Covert Missions and everything is on their website including rules and holocrons. You can still buy the products until sold-out. That doesn't sound like a big deal but remember there are other big companies in gaming industry, which set the standard for communication very low. For example, I have once had hard time getting money for one certain game. When I finally got the money and wanted to order, not only that the product was gone. The website was disconnected and only through hard googling, I have found out that Games Workshop decided to cut off Specialist Games and Warhammer History. No communication whatsoever. Just the website goes 404ed. FFG is very kind in their communication (also, want their money).

On 2/3/2020 at 10:01 AM, Jiron said:

One thing I can't really understand. There are angry players who claims FFG doesn't communicate. I understand you are angry for different reasons. FFG communicated very well.

But you know that they announced end of the game after stores preordered their last expansion but also before its street date? That's why lot of stores have a problem as they need to sell dead game. Jerk move.

17 hours ago, kempy said:

But you know that they announced end of the game after stores preordered their last expansion but also before its street date? That's why lot of stores have a problem as they need to sell dead game. Jerk move.

You can't really blame ffg for wanting as much money they can get before they cancelled the game. It's just business as usual.

It reminds me of one of the many unused cards in the game...

Instead of removing yellow dice, it removes covert operations boxes from their storehouses and they gain money for it without caring where the money comes from

Was really hard to wait a month or two until people will buy it? I'm not surprised FLGS owners are avoiding FFG now and Asmodee tries to increase direct sales, eg by adding some bonuses if you pre-order from their webstores.

On 2/3/2020 at 10:01 AM, Jiron said:

I will also state my feelings about killing off the game. I have expected that a lot sooner. That's why I avoided the game for some time. The idea of license, dice and booster pack cheaper then the one of Magic was obviously not very profitable.

I got in the game after all. I have bought the Rey/Finn starter pack and added some more cards. My wife went for Han/Chewie deck and we play casually quite often. I got my brother, his wife and some other friends in the game. Tommorow we have a game, actually.

The support is over. I suppose we will still play casually until it will cease to be fun. It will be second discontinued Star Wars card game I maintain a deck for. I have played WotC SW CCG. It was a lot better, by the way.

One thing I can't really understand. There are angry players who claims FFG doesn't communicate. I understand you are angry for different reasons. FFG communicated very well. They have announced that they are closing the game 3 months in advance. They will give you closure with Covert Missions and everything is on their website including rules and holocrons. You can still buy the products until sold-out. That doesn't sound like a big deal but remember there are other big companies in gaming industry, which set the standard for communication very low. For example, I have once had hard time getting money for one certain game. When I finally got the money and wanted to order, not only that the product was gone. The website was disconnected and only through hard googling, I have found out that Games Workshop decided to cut off Specialist Games and Warhammer History. No communication whatsoever. Just the website goes 404ed. FFG is very kind in their communication (also, want their money).

I tend to agree. Destiny getting the axe was always inevitable, the CCG business model was just all wrong for this game with how collecting dice and cards was necessary.

I think FFG needs to realize that the overwhelming majority of gamers do not like dealing with 3rd party markets and the entire concept of buying a game and not knowing what is in it until you open up the surprise package is a selling point for an extremely niche audience the vast majority of which will not represent your primary customers with a game like Destiny (people who love Star Wars and want to play a Star Wars game).

Had they made this a Living Card game, there is no doubt in my mind that Star Wars Destiny would be alive and well today.

Live and learn I guess.

4 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

I tend to agree. Destiny getting the axe was always inevitable, the CCG business model was just all wrong for this game with how collecting dice and cards was necessary.

I think FFG needs to realize that the overwhelming majority of gamers do not like dealing with 3rd party markets and the entire concept of buying a game and not knowing what is in it until you open up the surprise package is a selling point for an extremely niche audience the vast majority of which will not represent your primary customers with a game like Destiny (people who love Star Wars and want to play a Star Wars game).

Had they made this a Living Card game, there is no doubt in my mind that Star Wars Destiny would be alive and well today.

Live and learn I guess.

1) Keyforge proved there's really huge market for blind buying.

2) Destiny in LCG would be - smaller (cards in LCG are released in slower way, less unique cards in same period of time) and more expensive (ther're these **** dice, not only cards). To the point it could be just dead end. That's why FFG tried CCG as massive sales of first sets gave them more money than any other LCG. Also Star Wars LCG proved that SW license mixed with LCG isn't a formula for success.

2 hours ago, kempy said:

1) Keyforge proved there's really huge market for blind buying.

2) Destiny in LCG would be - smaller (cards in LCG are released in slower way, less unique cards in same period of time) and more expensive (ther're these **** dice, not only cards). To the point it could be just dead end. That's why FFG tried CCG as massive sales of first sets gave them more money than any other LCG. Also Star Wars LCG proved that SW license mixed with LCG isn't a formula for success.

I disagree with the second point. While the Star Wars LCG was a flop, its creator later created the highly popular Lord of the Rings LCG. It wasn't the format that was the problem, just the execution.

19 minutes ago, Paladin Ignatius said:

I disagree with the second point. While the Star Wars LCG was a flop, its creator later created the highly popular Lord of the Rings LCG. It wasn't the format that was the problem, just the execution.

Please don't put pvp and coop LCG in same bag. Same distribution system, but different target. PvP needs more and better tested cards, Organized Play system and constant changes to avoid stagnancy in tournament scene. Players find flaws in pvp LCG much faster as they affects torunament scene.

Coop LCGs are like a board games. If there's some design problem or problematic rule/card people just don't play them or play them as they want to play.

Also LotR LCG started in 2011, SW LCG in 2012.

18 hours ago, kempy said:

1) Keyforge proved there's really huge market for blind buying.

2) Destiny in LCG would be - smaller (cards in LCG are released in slower way, less unique cards in same period of time) and more expensive (ther're these **** dice, not only cards). To the point it could be just dead end. That's why FFG tried CCG as massive sales of first sets gave them more money than any other LCG. Also Star Wars LCG proved that SW license mixed with LCG isn't a formula for success.

That is a very surface observation. Keyforge hasn't proven anything yet, if it is not canceled in the next 5 years, then we can have a conversation about how it might have said something about the business. For now it's the latest fad and the most likely thing to happen is the same thing that happens to most fads in the last couple of decades, it bursts on the scene as the greatest thing since slice bread and like Destiny, a couple of years later we are talking about how shocked everyone is that it was canceled.

Personally I'm surprised that Keyforge is even thing, I tried it, I think its one of the most underwhelming designs of Garfield's entire career. The entire draw to the game is "unique decks", but it's effectively two people playing a solo game. I think the only thing keyforge will prove is what we already know about Garfields games, he made one game decades ago and he has been riding that success ever since.

As for Destiny as an LCG, I don't think the community or purchase base would be necessarily smaller. The only real difference between an LCG and CCG is that there is no need for a 3rd party market for an LCG and frankly I consider that a positive. I don't want to buy things from a 3rd party market, so if the primary market for a game is too expensive I buy less or not at all. I would have thought publishers would have learned this lesson about their consumer base by now as I'm quite certain I represent the overwhelming majority of how gamers operate. I have no issue shelling out some money for cards to play a game I like, but you need to make it hassle free for me and the price vs. benefit needs to be reasonable. With Destiny, it wasn't, so I, like many, I stopped buying and here we are.

For these CCG's to be successful they need to be successful outside of the competitive scene, it needs to be a fun game casual gamers like to play, hence it needs to be reasonably priced and modeled. Your average competitive players is doing everything in his power not to spend money on the game and still create competitive decks. They don't buy stuff for it, they acquire only what they need so most of the competitive players are working it out in the 3rd party market.

Destiny failed because it failed to be a game casual gamers picked up.

CCGs live faster and die faster. Whats important for Asmodee how many money it will earn for them. 1 mln registered decks so fast. I am not sure if SW LCG got them such numbers during whole lifetime.

45 minutes ago, kempy said:

CCGs live faster and die faster. Whats important for Asmodee how many money it will earn for them. 1 mln registered decks so fast. I am not sure if SW LCG got them such numbers during whole lifetime.

Probably not, but it's important to note that regardless of whether you are a CCG or LCG, you still need to be a good game regardless of anything else in order to be successful.

So the LCG and CCG are an apples to oranges discussion. The Star Wars LCG was released to lackluster reviews, got a poor reception from the card playing market and has always been considered a mediocre card game on its best day. FFG was never going to be able to save the game, the fact that it lasted as long as it did was entirely the result of it being an LCG. Had Star Wars LCG been a CCG it would have been canceled outright after the release of the core set.

Destiny on the other hand was well received, well reviewed and is still considered one of the better card games on the market today. It remained in the top 10 of ICV2 for its entire run. For it to "fail" is not the result of its quality or reception, its pure mismanagement by the publisher.

12 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

That is a very surface observation. Keyforge hasn't proven anything yet, if it is not canceled in the next 5 years, then we can have a conversation about how it might have said something about the business. For now it's the latest fad and the most likely thing to happen is the same thing that happens to most fads in the last couple of decades, it bursts on the scene as the greatest thing since slice bread and like Destiny, a couple of years later we are talking about how shocked everyone is that it was canceled.

Personally I'm surprised that Keyforge is even thing, I tried it, I think its one of the most underwhelming designs of Garfield's entire career. The entire draw to the game is "unique decks", but it's effectively two people playing a solo game. I think the only thing keyforge will prove is what we already know about Garfields games, he made one game decades ago and he has been riding that success ever since.

As for Destiny as an LCG, I don't think the community or purchase base would be necessarily smaller. The only real difference between an LCG and CCG is that there is no need for a 3rd party market for an LCG and frankly I consider that a positive. I don't want to buy things from a 3rd party market, so if the primary market for a game is too expensive I buy less or not at all. I would have thought publishers would have learned this lesson about their consumer base by now as I'm quite certain I represent the overwhelming majority of how gamers operate. I have no issue shelling out some money for cards to play a game I like, but you need to make it hassle free for me and the price vs. benefit needs to be reasonable. With Destiny, it wasn't, so I, like many, I stopped buying and here we are.

For these CCG's to be successful they need to be successful outside of the competitive scene, it needs to be a fun game casual gamers like to play, hence it needs to be reasonably priced and modeled. Your average competitive players is doing everything in his power not to spend money on the game and still create competitive decks. They don't buy stuff for it, they acquire only what they need so most of the competitive players are working it out in the 3rd party market.

Destiny failed because it failed to be a game casual gamers picked up.

Well we are all entitled to our own opinions....and I highly disagree with you on KeyForge. I like the fact it's an unchangeable deck. Makes weaker decks fun to play. Also the game is fantastic. Fixes the issues that plague Magic the Gathering, i.e. lands! Just because you don't play cards on the other person's turn doesn't make it a "solo" game.

I do agree with you though that I don't think KeyForge will still be printed 5 years from now. I think it's already lost a lot of it's popularity. I love the game but it seems the hype has died down in a big way. While it did fix Magic, I think most people didn't want Magic fixed. So there you go.

As far as Destiny goes, while an LCG sounds great I think it would have been too expensive to do that way. Sets would have cost an arm and a leg and people would have jumped on the old wagon of 'FFG gouges me with multiple core set' complaints. Destiny shot itself in the foot early on with under printing. I don't blame FFG for that, it was a risk. Especially with all the complaints I heard when it was announced. They probably worried the game wouldn't sell well. FFG were playing the odds. But with the underprinting, the game was not available and it killed the initial hype. I don't think it ever truly recovered. And here we are with a dead game. One that is still worth playing. But it undersold in the long run. And now it's gone.