Nuke the fridge is an Indiana Jones reference, it at one point had the connotation of jumped the shark on steroids. Mandalorian armor has 5 hp. Assuming the stereotypical build is a bounty hunter gadgeteer that makes 6 hp, and a jury rigged. Add a reverse engineered that's 7. That's more than enough to trick out a set of mandalorian armor.... the proposed vambraces are far beyond gratuitous... a pair of them surpasses the base mandalolorian armor. That's nuking the fridge

8 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Mandalorian armor has 5 hp. Assuming the stereotypical build is a bounty hunter gadgeteer that makes 6 hp, and a jury rigged. Add a reverse engineered that's 7. That's more than enough to trick out a set of mandalorian armor.... the proposed vambraces are far beyond gratuitous... a pair of them surpasses the base mandalolorian armor. That's nuking the fridge

They don't exactly add HP, they just negate the HP for mounting certain weapons. That allows the player to invest in attachments that improve their armor.

What you see as a bug is actually a feature. It reflects what we see in Star Wars media, is cool, is fun, and is not overpowered.

1 hour ago, Ghostofman said:

That helps, but is not that great from a design perspective. Long complicated stat blocks with special rules for special things are a pain. And it's not very future proof as another attachment could come out that also needs roping it.

The more I think about it the more I'm leaning toward the idea of it being a set collection of weapons with an option to swap out, or maybe add one or two.

Half the issue with the dang things is we don't know much about them. Do they come standard with stuff? Are they custom built? What kind of people use them? Are there supposed to be different versions for different people, or are they just blank mounts individual users are expected to know how to tweak?

I prefer to treat them (cuz that how I'm treating them ) as a blank slate that you can then slap stuff onto. However, for the sake of argument, I'll do a practice build for a "stock vambrace" and see what you think.

Pair of Mandalorian Vambraces:
Hard Points Required: 1 on any set of Mandalorian armor, 2 on other armors.
Cost: (R) 5,000/8 (Special) ([LV]500+150[RWB]+800[MRL]+600[WL]+[RV]500+150[RWB]+750[CFP]+1,500[PPS*]+50[rounding])

Right Vambrace:
Base Modifiers: Grants the wielder Retractable Wrist Blades, Micro-Rocket Launcher, and Whipcord Launcher that can be readied as an Incidental and can't be disarmed.
Modification Options: 1 Remove Setback from checks to fire the Micro-Rocket Launcher mod, 1 Defensive +1 quality mod.

Left Vambrace:
Base Modifiers: Grants the wielder Retractable Wrist Blades, Compact Flame Projector, and Portable Plasma Shield that can be readied as an Incidental and can't be disarmed.
Modification Options: 1 Defensive +1 mod, 1 Deflection +1 mod.

What should be the requirement for swapping out additional weapons? The others aren't very invasive, size wise. (Repulsor Blast, Dart Shooter, Whistling Birds [WIP])
I'm also thinking of replacing the "Wrist Mounted Weapon" with "Integrated Blaster Pistol" which has the same stats as a Holdout Blaster, but gains the Linked 1 quality (300/6).

*I reduced the price by 1,000 since its potential benefit is also reduced.

53 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Nuke the fridge is an Indiana Jones reference, it at one point had the connotation of jumped the shark on steroids. Mandalorian armor has 5 hp. Assuming the stereotypical build is a bounty hunter gadgeteer that makes 6 hp, and a jury rigged. Add a reverse engineered that's 7. That's more than enough to trick out a set of mandalorian armor.... the proposed vambraces are far beyond gratuitous... a pair of them surpasses the base mandalolorian armor. That's nuking the fridge

I view it more like a separate piece of equipment. No different than having a weapon. It should have encumbrance though.

41 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

They don't exactly add HP, they just negate the HP for mounting certain weapons. That allows the player to invest in attachments that improve their armor.

What you see as a bug is actually a feature. It reflects what we see in Star Wars media, is cool, is fun, and is not overpowered.

The raw 7 hp outlined above reflects what we see in starwars media just fine. You haven't justified why the RAW 7 hp easily obtainable by Mandalorians isn't sufficient. If you're logic is well this is just another way to get that then you've broken the game because someone is going to combine them. If you're intended to combine them then you've deliberately changed game balance in a significant way. Just because you make a change intentionally does not mean it is an improvement. It is possible to damage the play experience by adding a "feature" you intended to improve it. Bugs are accidental but not all defects are.

@EliasWindrider @P-47 Thunderbolt

There a plenty of examples in the media of all sorts of people having wrist mounted devices from comlinks, computers, weapons (hello Cad Bane) who aren’t Mandalorian. What kind of slicer doesn’t want a wrist mounted slicing kit.

It’s balanced if it is generally available to anyone, then it’s just another type of gear people can tinker with.

9 minutes ago, Eoen said:

@EliasWindrider @P-47 Thunderbolt

There a plenty of examples in the media of all sorts of people having wrist mounted devices from comlinks, computers, weapons (hello Cad Bane) who aren’t Mandalorian. What kind of slicer doesn’t want a wrist mounted slicing kit.

It’s balanced if it is generally available to anyone, then it’s just another type of gear people can tinker with.

How much wrist mounted gear does anyone person who isn't Mandalorian have (because the armor explains it perfectly well for mandalorians). And it shifts the importance of credits dramatically. The vambraces he statted are grossly over powered.

@EliasWindrider

Well Ezra has a comlink on his arm, and early on he has an energy slingshot; clone troops have encrypted comlinks; Ashoka and almost every Jedi in armor has some sort of military comlink; Senators also have comlinks often on their wrists. It just seems like what ever players feel is useful given credit costs and weight.

The importance of credits is dependent on the style of campaign your running, in a clone game it’s not so important, in an Edge game it is.

14 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

The raw 7 hp outlined above reflects what we see in starwars media just fine. You haven't justified why the RAW 7 hp easily obtainable by Mandalorians isn't sufficient.

If you go with a particular character build. Sabine Wren had a Whipcord Thrower, Repulsor Blast, Dart Shooters, Micro-Rocket Launcher, and possibly others, I can't remember. That's 4 of the base 5, leaving 1 HP for customizing your actual armor.

15 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

If you're logic is well this is just another way to get that then you've broken the game because someone is going to combine them. If you're intended to combine them then you've deliberately changed game balance in a significant way. Just because you make a change intentionally does not mean it is an improvement. It is possible to damage the play experience by adding a "feature" you intended to improve it. Bugs are accidental but not all defects are.

I'm going to use this. I've been using this. It hasn't broken anything, it reflects what we see, and it's fun. Part of the point is for them to be combined, but the Vambraces are designed to replace mounting additional things on your wrist, if that's what your point is (other stuff [i.e. comlinks, datapads, etc.] would be handled narratively).

If you aren't going to offer constructive criticism, I'm not sure what you are doing here. If you are just saying "Nope, don't do this" then you've made your point, but I don't have to agree with you and there is no point in continuing to argue.

5 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Well Ezra has a comlink on his arm, and early on he has an energy slingshot; clone troops have encrypted comlinks; Ashoka and almost every Jedi in armor has some sort of military comlink; Senators also have comlinks often on their wrists. It just seems like what ever players feel is useful given credit costs and weight.

With the exception of Ezra's slingshot, those would simply be handled narratively. A datapad, a comlink, whatever. Just but the item and narrate it as being on your gauntlet/wrist.

I'm still thinking about Encumbrance for Vambraces. I'm thinking 1 each, because they seem to be pretty light and since they are worn on the wrist they don't have the "difficult to carry" modifier on their value.

12 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

If you go with a particular character build. Sabine Wren had a Whipcord Thrower, Repulsor Blast, Dart Shooters, Micro-Rocket Launcher, and possibly others, I can't remember. That's 4 of the base 5, leaving 1 HP for customizing your actual armor

Given mando armor (of that era) comes with vacuum seals and an air supply, adding superior attachment covers most of the ground... and for a mando who really wants to trick it out there's inventor jury rigged and reverse engineered, so RAW covers the ground, and if that still isn't enough find an artisan to add another 2 hp. If you want an energy shield get an energy buckler. RAW is more than sufficient to cover what we see on screen. Now if you combine all that with the vambraces you statted then you've nuked the fridge. If you're not going to combine them, someone else will and with a species with 4 arms will so you've helped them nuke the fridge. What you do in your game is your business and more power to you for it, but when you post it on these forums 1) be prepared for critical feedback and 2) you are implicitly making a suggestion for other people to use it in their games and if something can be abused there is someone out there willing to abuse it so expect feedback from the community pointing out how it can be abused.

34 minutes ago, Eoen said:

@EliasWindrider

Well Ezra has a comlink on his arm, and early on he has an energy slingshot; clone troops have encrypted comlinks; Ashoka and almost every Jedi in armor has some sort of military comlink; Senators also have comlinks often on their wrists. It just seems like what ever players feel is useful given credit costs and weight.

The importance of credits is dependent on the style of campaign your running, in a clone game it’s not so important, in an Edge game it is.

Those examples seem to be 1 or at most 2 items per arm and there raw armor and weapon attachment rules cover them.

1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

when you post it on these forums be prepared for critical feedback

Yeah, I am. But when I clearly don't share your concerns (and don't event think your concerns are accurate), I'm just looking for constructive criticisms, not a "No, don't do this. Still no, don't do this. No don't do this." That doesn't help me. GhostofMan disagreed with me on certain points, but suggested tweaks and alternatives. That is constructive criticism, whether he likes my idea or not. He's not just saying "nope."

3 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Now if you combine all that with the vambraces you statted then you've nuked the fridge. If you're not going to combine them, someone else will and with a species with 4 arms will so you've helped them nuke the fridge. What you do in your game is your business and more power to you for it, but when you post it on these forums 1) be prepared for critical feedback and 2) you are implicitly making a suggestion for other people to use it in their games and if something can be abused there is someone out there willing to abuse it so expect feedback from the community pointing out how it can be abused.

It's up to the GM whether or not to include them, and if they have a player who is determined to exploit every rule or house rule as much as possible, they've either already got a problem or they're not going to care. Alternatively, they won't use the house rule.

(Oh, and I also forgot that Sabine had the energy shield [2 HP] as well. That puts it up to 6 HP [confirmed] without her having done anything at all on her armor, and that doesn't make any sense)

With standard Mandalorian armor (5 HP, but I'll grant you 1 extra point), you spend 1 HP on Vambraces, that leaves you 5 HP. 2 for Integrated Holsters, 2 for a Strength Enhancing System, and that leaves you 1 HP which could be used on a variety of minor attachments.

The Portable Plasma Shield takes up 2 HP, but since it is also nerfed, I'm not going to change anything.

I think what I'll do once I've got some feedback on the prefabs is make a second half to the post that suggests using the prefabs instead of the blanks. Or at least suggests restrictions. I have to think about how I'll do it (suggestions would be helpful).

3 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Yeah, I am. But when I clearly don't share your concerns (and don't event think your concerns are accurate), I'm just looking for constructive criticisms, not a "No, don't do this. Still no, don't do this. No don't do this." That doesn't help me. GhostofMan disagreed with me on certain points, but suggested tweaks and alternatives. That is constructive criticism, whether he likes my idea or not. He's not just saying "nope."

It's up to the GM whether or not to include them, and if they have a player who is determined to exploit every rule or house rule as much as possible, they've either already got a problem or they're not going to care. Alternatively, they won't use the house rule.

(Oh, and I also forgot that Sabine had the energy shield [2 HP] as well. That puts it up to 6 HP [confirmed] without her having done anything at all on her armor, and that doesn't make any sense)

With standard Mandalorian armor (5 HP, but I'll grant you 1 extra point), you spend 1 HP on Vambraces, that leaves you 5 HP. 2 for Integrated Holsters, 2 for a Strength Enhancing System, and that leaves you 1 HP which could be used on a variety of minor attachments.

Of course sabine could have an energy buckler from keeping the peace rather than portable plasma shield generator, and still have 2 hp to play with, which then does make sense. When a RAW explanation works, I tend not to look further than that.

Here's a piece of advice.... design your own system from the ground up, starting with the core dice mechanic/combat/movement. I've done it twice, both systems called "3d" because core mechanic involved rolling 3 dice. The first system (the one @Donovan Morningfire read) was crap though, at the table math was far too complicated/clunky for starters, second attempt turned out pretty good (but I put it on indefinite hiatus because of life, i.e. I got married and had kids, also got more responsibility at work). The point of this, designing core mechanics and building up a system around them really taught me to care about balance and simple/smooth/fast gameplay over complexity/cool-fidley-bits. No offense but that's a lesson that I think you need to learn and this is coming from a person who 9 or so years ago was where you are now with respect to game/house rule design. I consider myself a power gamer but not a munchkin, I consider you a power gamer and there's no shame in that in fact it's a good thing because in my experience, power gamers make great game designers, because it takes a power gamer (with the objective of creating a balanced system) to make a hard to exploit/abuse system. Power gamers who are more interested in cool fidley bits more than balance and smooth gameplay DON'T make for great game designers. I'm pretty confident that you'll sort this out eventually (because "I was you" and I sorted it out).

To Express my confidence in you, pm me your email address and I'll send you a word doc on the second take of 3d... it's in the middle of a refactoring to make range bands more simple (some not all weapons have been converted). It'd give you a pretty solid foundation to start from... if you want something more d&d like try replacing the d20 with n d10 take the 2 largest, and increasing skill adds more d10's to the pool. The statistics just work better that way.

It doesn't seem to be much point treating the vambraces as armor attachments. Rather, just treat them as as wristmounted "weapons" with, say 2-3HP, and 2-3 enc each and the specific weapons as custom attachments.

Have the smaller weapons (wrist blades, whipcord, dart launcher) take a single hard point and the bigger ones 2 or 3. Give the weapons themselves no innate hardpoints meaning that you have to compromise with each gauntlet; fit a big weapon (missile launcher, whistling birds?), multiple, smaller ones, or a small one with some kind of attachment (such as making the wrist blades monomolecular or adding a laser sight, or paired whipcord launchers).

You can also use tinkerer and stuff like that on them to add hard points for less compromising setups.

Being attachments also means you could swap stuff around between missions, meaning you could have all the weapons, just not at the same time.

Combine this with integrated holsters if you want the wepons to feel like part of the suit, or just use themon their own, like Mira in Kotor 2 or Bounty Hunters that don't go for the armored look in SWTOR.

Having the weapons as attachments means that you could also balance stuff like whistling birds by making their base stats somewhat on the humble side but upgradeable with attachment mods.

5 hours ago, penpenpen said:

It doesn't seem to be much point treating the vambraces as armor attachments. Rather, just treat them as as wristmounted "weapons" with, say 2-3HP, and 2-3 enc each and the specific weapons as custom attachments.

That's sort of what I'm going for, but the reason I made them armor attachments was because they integrate with the helmet so I figured the additional taxatio on the systems warranted an HP.

5 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Have the smaller weapons (wrist blades, whipcord, dart launcher) take a single hard point and the bigger ones 2 or 3. Give the weapons themselves no innate hardpoints meaning that you have to compromise with each gauntlet; fit a big weapon (missile launcher, whistling birds?), multiple, smaller ones, or a small one with some kind of attachment (such as making the wrist blades monomolecular or adding a laser sight, or paired whipcord launchers).

Being attachments also means you could swap stuff around between missions, meaning you could have all the weapons, just not at the same time.

Having the weapons as attachments means that you could also balance stuff like whistling birds by making their base stats somewhat on the humble side but upgradeable with attachment mods.

That's pretty much what I'm going for, minus the part about the attachments having HP. The idea is that you slot stuff into the Vambraces and with a couple hours work you can take them out and replace them with something else.

Hmm... I'm still thinking about this though, you've made some good points.

Yeah, I think you're pretty much right...

Yeah. Keeping the Attachments the same as the base game, possibly with some adjustments (I'll have to think about that though), and give the Vambraces 3 HP. I still think Vambraces should take up 1 HP on the armor though.

I've gotta think about how to restrict the defensive modifications because with the base RWB and PPS you can stack it for Defensive 4 pretty easily. However, the PPS only provides Defensive 1 as a base, and we see them use it to deflect/absorb blaster bolts which would indicate Deflection 1 which would require it to be modded.

(I'm not familiar with the shield gauntlet, so that might be a superior alternative, I don't know. Is it an armor attachment?)

10 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Here's a piece of advice.... design your own system from the ground up, starting with the core dice mechanic/combat/movement. The point of this, designing core mechanics and building up a system around them really taught me to care about balance and simple/smooth/fast gameplay over complexity/cool-fidley-bits. No offense but that's a lesson that I think you need to learn and this is coming from a person who 9 or so years ago was where you are now with respect to game/house rule design. I consider myself a power gamer but not a munchkin, I consider you a power gamer and there's no shame in that in fact it's a good thing because in my experience, power gamers make great game designers, because it takes a power gamer (with the objective of creating a balanced system) to make a hard to exploit/abuse system. Power gamers who are more interested in cool fidley bits more than balance and smooth gameplay DON'T make for great game designers. I'm pretty confident that you'll sort this out eventually (because "I was you" and I sorted it out).

I actually have (sort of). I worked on converting this system to D20 (sort of). Basically keeping all the stats, careers/spec (some tweaks) and the basic concept of the rules (setting difficulty, Advantage/Threat, etc) but setting up my own skill tables and Characteristics. I'll send you the details.

I'm a little bit torn when it comes to complex mechanics, because when it came to the Tractor Beam house rules I made a while ago, I understood that it was kinda complicated, but it also didn't take much work once you'd prepped. Anyway, I loved how proportional it was (one of the main disagreements was as regards the nature of tractor beams) and how much sense it made (with my take on the nature of tractor beams, at least).

How, exactly, do you define Power Gamer?

26 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I actually have (sort of). I worked on converting this system to D20 (sort of). Basically keeping all the stats, careers/spec (some tweaks) and the basic concept of the rules (setting difficulty, Advantage/Threat, etc) but setting up my own skill tables and Characteristics. I'll send you the details.

I'm a little bit torn when it comes to complex mechanics, because when it came to the Tractor Beam house rules I made a while ago, I understood that it was kinda complicated, but it also didn't take much work once you'd prepped. Anyway, I loved how proportional it was (one of the main disagreements was as regards the nature of tractor beams) and how much sense it made (with my take on the nature of tractor beams, at least).

How, exactly, do you define Power Gamer?

https://www.enworld.org/threads/munchkins-vs-powergamers.208815/

I guess I'm sort of a power gamer, but I temper that with a hearty helping of RP building. I sometimes will try to build something that is just really good, but more often I prefer to build a character based on what I think the character would be like and what they would focus on. I could certainly be a power gamer if I wanted to be, I'm just not sure that's my MO.

@EliasWindrider , I tried to PM you, but it says you can't receive messages.

Personally, I don't get why the maximum of 7 HP wouldn't be enough to add anything you wanted.

And if you wanted, those things could largely be added to the gauntlets/vambraces of the armour without having it be a separate piece.

No matter how you twist this, it essentially means you can now suddenly put 13 HP into a Mandalorian armour.

For no other reason than the fact that you don't seem to think 7 HP is enough to put everything seen in the Movies/Shows on an armour.



If you REALLY want those vambraces to be something you can change and replace on the fly, why not make them a replaceable part of the armour itself instead?
House-Rule it so that the Mandalorian armours have detachable vambraces/gauntlets that lets you remove and replace 1HP each with just a few hours of work.

That way you can remove your Flamethrower and put in a mini rocket-launcher instead if you wanted.

But the way you're doing it now, you'll end up with a Mandalorian player who's got a flamethrower, rocketlauncher, dart shooter, wristblade, whipcord thrower, plasma shield and whistling birds in one armour. And still room for a Jetpack and some more goodies in the helmet...

That's just gonna be overkill.

3 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

@EliasWindrider , I tried to PM you, but it says you can't receive messages.

My inbox was full. I deleted a bunch of stuff. Should be good to go now.

9 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

That's sort of what I'm going for, but the reason I made them armor attachments was because they integrate with the helmet so I figured the additional taxatio on the systems warranted an HP.

That's pretty much what I'm going for, minus the part about the attachments having HP. The idea is that you slot stuff into the Vambraces and with a couple hours work you can take them out and replace them with something else.

Hmm... I'm still thinking about this though, you've made some good points.

Yeah, I think you're pretty much right...

Yeah. Keeping the Attachments the same as the base game, possibly with some adjustments (I'll have to think about that though), and give the Vambraces 3 HP. I still think Vambraces should take up 1 HP on the armor though.

I've gotta think about how to restrict the defensive modifications because with the base RWB and PPS you can stack it for Defensive 4 pretty easily. However, the PPS only provides Defensive 1 as a base, and we see them use it to deflect/absorb blaster bolts which would indicate Deflection 1 which would require it to be modded.

(I'm not familiar with the shield gauntlet, so that might be a superior alternative, I don't know. Is it an armor attachment?)

Look. An attachment that functionally adds more hard points is broken as ****. Particularly on Mandalorian armor that already has top tier levels of HP.

Breaking them out and reclassifying them as weapons shifts the cost from armor HP into extra encumbrance. If you want bracers that can fit 3HP worth of weapons, they'd need take have an encumbrance rating of at least 3 or 4 each .

Being Mandalorian isn't a license to make all the stuff overpowered. Mandalorian stuff tends to be top notch as it is.

9 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I actually have (sort of). I worked on converting this system to D20 (sort of).

I think it'd be easier to just pick up Star Wars Saga. It's one of the better iterations of D20 I've seen. Its' gear customization system was pretty good, better than FFGs in some ways, but also more open to minmaxing abuse.

If I'm being quite honest here, I feel that P47 Thunderbolt is a bit of a min-maxer in his thoughts about rules.

That's just going off the posts I've seen him make about rules here on the forums... He seems to be of the "old-school" mindset of there having to be rules for every minutia of the game and that the should be possible to min-max quite a lot.

But that might just be me getting the wrong impression. But that's the feeling I get.

2 hours ago, OddballE8 said:

If I'm being quite honest here, I feel that P47 Thunderbolt is a bit of a min-maxer in his thoughts about rules.

That's just going off the posts I've seen him make about rules here on the forums... He seems to be of the "old-school" mindset of there having to be rules for every minutia of the game and that the should be possible to min-max quite a lot.

But that might just be me getting the wrong impression. But that's the feeling I get.

No, you're not wrong. I've been following along, and what P-47 posted here is along the lines of what I'd expect from someone that shares Karen Traviss' infamous Mando fetish.

There's been some great advice to reign these things in, and he's pretty much ignored all of it under the blanket heading of "but I want my Mando character to be spectacularly awesome!" Almost to the point I'd say he's veering into the munchkin realm of the min-maxer, since he's introducing new material that is unbalanced and simply designed to provide a specific character type that he favors an unfair advantage over other character types.