On 11/23/2019 at 9:55 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Yeah, I am. But when I clearly don't share your concerns (and don't event think your concerns are accurate), I'm just looking for constructive criticisms, not a "No, don't do this. Still no, don't do this. No don't do this." That doesn't help me. GhostofMan disagreed with me on certain points, but suggested tweaks and alternatives. That is constructive criticism, whether he likes my idea or not. He's not just saying "nope."

It's up to the GM whether or not to include them, and if they have a player who is determined to exploit every rule or house rule as much as possible, they've either already got a problem or they're not going to care. Alternatively, they won't use the house rule.

(Oh, and I also forgot that Sabine had the energy shield [2 HP] as well. That puts it up to 6 HP [confirmed] without her having done anything at all on her armor, and that doesn't make any sense)

With standard Mandalorian armor (5 HP, but I'll grant you 1 extra point), you spend 1 HP on Vambraces, that leaves you 5 HP. 2 for Integrated Holsters, 2 for a Strength Enhancing System, and that leaves you 1 HP which could be used on a variety of minor attachments.

Build jango fetts, boba fetts sabines and the manda and orians armor using the current rules. I suspect you wont have a shortage of hardpoints. But if there is you can show it.

On 11/24/2019 at 4:55 AM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

With standard Mandalorian armor (5 HP, but I'll grant you 1 extra point), you spend 1 HP on Vambraces, that leaves you 5 HP. 2 for Integrated Holsters, 2 for a Strength Enhancing System , and that leaves you 1 HP which could be used on a variety of minor attachments.

Why do you feel the need to spend 4 HP on stuff that isn't even part of normal Mandalorian Armor?

1 minute ago, micheldebruyn said:

Why do you feel the need to spend 4 HP on stuff that isn't even part of normal Mandalorian Armor?

To be fair, in No Disintegrations at least, those two things are listed as being common parts of the armor and one of the 'prebuilt' armors includes them both.

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Build jango fetts, boba fetts sabines and the manda and orians armor using the current rules. I suspect you wont have a shortage of hardpoints. But if there is you can show it.

Actually, I have counted the number of attachments on Boba Fett’s armor, particularly the number of weapons built into it, and it vastly exceeds the number of hard points that are in a suit of Mandalorian armor. This is particularly true because each weapon mount itself requires multiple hard points.

40 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

To be fair, in No Disintegrations at least, those two things are listed as being common parts of the armor and one of the 'prebuilt' armors includes them both.

Yeah, that was what I was basing it on.

@OddballE8 , bear in mind, I introduced this as a GM for a Mandalorian campaign. I'm not really a min-maxer, I just think that this reflects what we see in the movies. I don't think it's that I want rules for every minutia of the game, the only time I remember wanting to straight up add rules was with the Atmospheric Crashing rules, and I still feel that that was something that was lacking in RAW. I can certainly see concerns in a mixed campaign with using Vambraces, though I again disagree somewhat because I feel that additional options, since they aren't heavy weapons and are limited to Short range, aren't too much of an issue. I introduced this for a Mando-centric campaign that didn't have other sorts of characters mixed in. I might reconsider if it was under different circumstances, but in my experience, they haven't caused any problems whatsoever. I've had more trouble with them using Jetpacks* than with them using Vambraces.

Armor is very important to Mandalorians, and we know they pack a ton of weapons into their armor (specifically from what we see in the Clone Wars and Rebels). It just doesn't make sense to me that all of their armor hardpoints would be taken up by the wrist mounted weapons because that just doesn't make sense. First of all, Vambraces are pretty small and light. Secondly, just because you can pack in the requisite number of weapons with the HP provided doesn't mean that they don't also have other attachments that you just don't see (like an EOS or other helmet goodies). I've been contemplating alternative solutions, but if you take penpenpen's suggestion for example, he nerfs it a little bit by increasing the HP certain items take up, but it doesn't really change it all that much except for removing the HP cost to mount it on Armor. I have been thinking about Encumbrance, but again, they seem pretty small and light.

They also have a high rarity, which makes them difficult to find, so unless you start on Heroic-Level (which we did) you probably aren't going to have access to them. And even if you did, they'd be very expensive to outfit. So they would probably be a goal, not a start, for most PCs. Particularly those who aren't starting out on Mandalore (hence 8 (special) for the rarity).

Now, here's my HP justification that Daeglan asked for (even though I kinda already gave it): Sabine Wren: Whipcord Thrower, Dart Shooter, Repulsor Blast, Micro-Rocket Launcher, and PPS for 7 HP (and she may have had more, I'm not sure). We also see later on that she definitely had Vacuum Sealed, and she probably had some other things as well that you can't really tell just by looking at her. That puts it up to 8 confirmed. If you say "well, maybe she had Vacuum Sealed as an innate part of her armor, like the CW-era armor specs" then that puts it down to 7, which is still above the base. That can't be accomplished per RAW unless you put her into specific trees.

Jango Fett: Compact Flame Projector, Micro-Rocket Launcher, 2 Retractable Wrist Blades, Whipcord Thrower. That's 6 right off the bat, and we don't know what goodies he had inside the helmet or other armor customizations.

Boba Fett (I'm going some off Legends here because we don't see a ton on-screen and Legends has a ton of information on him): Micro-Rocket Launcher, Compact Flame Projector, Whipcord Thrower, Vacuum Sealed, I'll say that all the helmet goodies only take up 1 HP, a wrist laser, and I'll write off the knee-pad weaponry. That puts it to 7 at a base, and that's glossing over a couple things.

*If you guys are reading this, it's fine, you can keep using your jetpacks to your hearts content.

Canonically, Boba Fett has these weapons mounted in his armor:

• flamethrower (gauntlet)
• whipcord launcher (gauntlet)
• wrist laser (gauntlet)
• rocket dart launchers, (knee pads)

In Legends, his gauntlets also include:

• retractable blades
• a micro concussion missile launcher.

Fett’s helmet alone include numerous attachments:

Quote

Boba Fett's Mandalorian helmet recorded video and played it back on his command, dispensed water, compensated automatically for low or high light conditions, picked up on minute sounds and amplified them and could connect with the onboard computer of Slave I , assuming the transmission wasn't blocked (by being underground inside the Sarlacc, for example). The helmet at one point also had the capability of sealing to compensate for pressure changes, and holding 5 to 10 minutes of air, though damage may have disabled this feature at some point. The helmet also contained a retractable straw, allowing Fett to drink without removing his helmet. Like most Mandalorian helmets, it had a T-shaped visor.

Fett could control weapons, sensors, and his jet pack with verbal commands. His helmet's HUD (heads-up-display) featured information on the surrounding environment as well as a 360-degree field of vision. The HUD's data streams could be controlled by eye movements and blinking. In addition, an advanced penetrating radar allowed his HUD to provide information on nearby rooms, and could be used to scan the HoloNet and connect with databases, allowing him to perform tasks which would normally require a computer terminal, such as searching databases for individuals or even trading on the stock market and buying real estate, from anywhere that was accessible through the HoloNet. The macrobinocular viewplate could be magnified to allow Fett to see great distances, and was equipped with, among other things, an infrared scanner that could be magnified up to 50 times. The infrared scanner magnified light up to 100 times or displayed heat gradations.

The helmet's broad band antenna was capable of intercepting and unscrambling comlink and starship comm transmissions. It was also capable of, with assistance from his ship's computer, jamming transmissions or sending fake transmissions, even while not in his ship. At the top of the antenna was a rangefinder capable of tracking up to 30 targets from a distance of 100 meters. The rangefinder fed data to a display overlay inside the helmet showing range and movement for targets in a 360 degree radius. The overlay also linked to Fett's weapons systems to display fire vector and range data. The rangefinder could be deployed horizontally or vertically.

The environmental filter system could filter out poisons and contaminants as well as provide Fett with a two-hour reserve air tank.

Below is a diagram of every attachment built into Fett’s armor.

Most of those wouldn't take up HP though.

As for the helmet? Anyones guess how much of that was Legends being crazy versus something that actually makes sense, which is why I glossed over it.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, I have counted the number of attachments on Boba Fett’s armor, particularly the number of weapons built into it, and it vastly exceeds the number of hard points that are in a suit of Mandalorian armor. This is particularly true because each weapon mount itself requires multiple hard points.

Based on what? What some things say he has in his armor or things we see him actually use

I'm a big fan of keeping it as simple as possible, so should I ever play a mandalorian, the plan is to just get the items separate and narrate that it's all part of my vambraces. Mechanically this would mean if my items were damaged, the vambraces are damaged, or if the items are confiscated, the vambraces are too.

44 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Based on what? What some things say he has in his armor or things we see him actually use

Bingo!

Most of that garbage was added in a vacuum and then made an appearance later in Jango's armor. So like it was assumed he had a flamethrower, but Jango was the first to actually use it.

Likewise there's items that have been labeled one thing and later proven wrong. Good example here is:

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The item IDed as a mini concussion rocket here, we now know is actually a "whistling bird" launcher, and the backpack grappling line launcher is actually a plain out missile.

So we know Boba has the line launcher and wrist blaster because he used both on-screen.

We assume that he didn't remove/replace the flamethrower, pack rocket, or blade... things Jango used on-screen. You can also argue that Jango had a dart launcher as I don't think he is seen with a rifle or anything in the scene in AotC with the Saberdart.

We can probably safely assume he's got a whistling bird launcher and a helmet flip-down rangefinder, things other people have used on-screen that match what Boba has.

But the further we go from there... the less we can be certain.

That's why I see Vambrances (and Mando armor as well to an extent) being such a pain in the mule. Game-mechanics-wise there's a dozen ways to do it, all with risk. One key universal risk being vambrances are essentially a Mandalorian bat-utility belt. On screen it's probably safe bet that Mandos are always going to have whatever weapon the plot requires they have strapped to their wrist...

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Based on what? What some things say he has in his armor or things we see him actually use

6 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

Bingo!

Most of that garbage was added in a vacuum and then made an appearance later in Jango's armor. So like it was assumed he had a flamethrower, but Jango was the first to actually use it.

Likewise there's items that have been labeled one thing and later proven wrong. Good example here is:

The item IDed as a mini concussion rocket here, we now know is actually a "whistling bird" launcher, and the backpack grappling line launcher is actually a plain out missile.

So we know Boba has the line launcher and wrist blaster because he used both on-screen.

We assume that he didn't remove/replace the flamethrower, pack rocket, or blade... things Jango used on-screen. You can also argue that Jango had a dart launcher as I don't think he is seen with a rifle or anything in the scene in AotC with the Saberdart.

We can probably safely assume he's got a whistling bird launcher and a helmet flip-down rangefinder, things other people have used on-screen that match what Boba has.

But the further we go from there... the less we can be certain.

That's why I see Vambrances (and Mando armor as well to an extent) being such a pain in the mule. Game-mechanics-wise there's a dozen ways to do it, all with risk. One key universal risk being vambrances are essentially a Mandalorian bat-utility belt. On screen it's probably safe bet that Mandos are always going to have whatever weapon the plot requires they have strapped to their wrist...

A lot of these were used in the old canon novels and comics. This is why I separated the canon and Legends loadout.

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, I have counted the number of attachments on Boba Fett’s armor, particularly the number of weapons built into it, and it vastly exceeds the number of hard points that are in a suit of Mandalorian armor. This is particularly true because each weapon mount itself requires multiple hard points.

On the other hand, if you count the gauntlets as weapons with the wrist mount attachment, those take up zero hard points. Quite fitting for the wristblaster for instance. Put an ascenscion gun and a wrist mount on a blaster pistol and Bob's your mother's brother. You now have both the grappling hook and the wristblaster for zero hardpoints. As there isn't much that fits the gauntlet flamethrower, I'd suggest crafting a pistol with the burn quality adding blast either via triumphs or attachments. Rules-wise it becomes functionally a flamethrower. If you have the hardpoints to spare, you can also add an underbarrel micro-missile rack and voila! You have wrist rockets.

As for the missile on the jetpack, add a HP to a jetpack with tinkerer and try to convince your GM to fit a single shot minimissile tube in it.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

A lot of these were used in the old canon novels and comics. This is why I separated the canon and Legends loadout.

Which are no longer canon.

35 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Which are no longer canon.

Bingo

1 hour ago, penpenpen said:

If you have the hardpoints to spare, you can also add an underbarrel micro-missile rack and voila! You have wrist rockets.

I was under the impression the micro rocket launchers from ND were supposed to cover that.

Really the painful ones for trying to replicate known and suspected Boba are the flamer (which can be done, just not real efficiently), the Pack missile (which there's no real equivalent for as yet), whistling bird (expecting that one in a sourcebook about this time next year) and the fact that you essentially have to use multiple instances of the Wrist Mount to make it all fit.

8 hours ago, Ghostofman said:

I was under the impression the micro rocket launchers from ND were supposed to cover that.

Really the painful ones for trying to replicate known and suspected Boba are the flamer (which can be done, just not real efficiently), the Pack missile (which there's no real equivalent for as yet), whistling bird (expecting that one in a sourcebook about this time next year) and the fact that you essentially have to use multiple instances of the Wrist Mount to make it all fit.

Any way that works is valid. The way I planned it, it would only take two wrist mounted weapons. One for the blaster pistol/ascension gun and one for the "flamethrower"/missile launcher. Granted the latter is the trickier one, since you need at least 5 hardpoints to mount both a wrist mount and missile rack. Not huge deal though, as you can always use the armor attachment for just the missiles in a pinch. I was merely demonstrating that you don't have to use an armor weapon mount for every single weapon. If you really want to push it, you can try to finagle two extra hardpoints onto a micro-rocket pistol and wrist-mount that.

There's a lot of solutions that don't require much in the way of house ruling.

6 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Any way that works is valid. The way I planned it, it would only take two wrist mounted weapons. One for the blaster pistol/ascension gun and one for the "flamethrower"/missile launcher. Granted the latter is the trickier one, since you need at least 5 hardpoints to mount both a wrist mount and missile rack. Not huge deal though, as you can always use the armor attachment for just the missiles in a pinch. I was merely demonstrating that you don't have to use an armor weapon mount for every single weapon. If you really want to push it, you can try to finagle two extra hardpoints onto a micro-rocket pistol and wrist-mount that.

There's a lot of solutions that don't require much in the way of house ruling.

Oh, I agree completely. I kinda want to see what I can piece together sometime just to see how close I can get without getting too silly or requiring a pile of talents...

2 hours ago, Ghostofman said:

Oh, I agree completely. I kinda want to see what I can piece together sometime just to see how close I can get without getting too silly or requiring a pile of talents...

Well if you really want go stupidly overboard on hardpoints, make an Artisan, pick up Intuitive Improvements, FR2+ and the Manipulate power with the mastery upgrade. You can roll your Force dice every time roll to repair any item and spend two of them to either add a hard point or exchange for an automatic triumph, which can also add a hardpoint. Do a little maintenance every now and then, and soon all your stuff is going to have +3 hardpoints, permanently. Without using tinkerer. Madness ensues.

It comes with the side effect that everything you touch suddenly smells of cheese. Limburger to be specific.

Not sure what to do with 3 hardpoints on a chance cube though...

5 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Well if you really want go stupidly overboard on hardpoints, make an Artisan, pick up Intuitive Improvements, FR2+ and the Manipulate power with the mastery upgrade. You can roll your Force dice every time roll to repair any item and spend two of them to either add a hard point or exchange for an automatic triumph, which can also add a hardpoint. Do a little maintenance every now and then, and soon all your stuff is going to have +3 hardpoints, permanently. Without using tinkerer. Madness ensues.

It comes with the side effect that everything you touch suddenly smells of cheese. Limburger to be specific.

Not sure what to do with 3 hardpoints on a chance cube though...

I'm think more no talents at all and see how far I get... Just Hardware, Hardpoints, and the open road...

Just now, Ghostofman said:

I'm think more no talents at all and see how far I get... Just Hardware, Hardpoints, and the open road...

I'd add no skills to that list. See how far you can get with just credits (I'm not counting Negotiation/Streetwise since you need those to find the stuff in the first place).

On 11/25/2019 at 1:14 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Most of those wouldn't take up HP though.

As for the helmet? Anyones guess how much of that was Legends being crazy versus something that actually makes sense, which is why I glossed over it.

Actually, most of those do take up Hard Points. There's actually very little that doesn't.

On 11/25/2019 at 5:06 PM, Daeglan said:

Which are no longer canon.

I'm not arguing that. But my point still stands. Boba Fett's armor, and that of his father, had a lot more attachments on their armor than what's allowed within the rules.

On 11/25/2019 at 3:10 PM, Ghostofman said:

Bingo!

Most of that garbage was added in a vacuum and then made an appearance later in Jango's armor. So like it was assumed he had a flamethrower, but Jango was the first to actually use it.

Likewise there's items that have been labeled one thing and later proven wrong. Good example here is:

The item IDed as a mini concussion rocket here, we now know is actually a "whistling bird" launcher, and the backpack grappling line launcher is actually a plain out missile.

So we know Boba has the line launcher and wrist blaster because he used both on-screen.

We assume that he didn't remove/replace the flamethrower, pack rocket, or blade... things Jango used on-screen. You can also argue that Jango had a dart launcher as I don't think he is seen with a rifle or anything in the scene in AotC with the Saberdart.

We can probably safely assume he's got a whistling bird launcher and a helmet flip-down rangefinder, things other people have used on-screen that match what Boba has.

But the further we go from there... the less we can be certain.

That's why I see Vambrances (and Mando armor as well to an extent) being such a pain in the mule. Game-mechanics-wise there's a dozen ways to do it, all with risk. One key universal risk being vambrances are essentially a Mandalorian bat-utility belt. On screen it's probably safe bet that Mandos are always going to have whatever weapon the plot requires they have strapped to their wrist...

Fett had a rocket on his gauntlet, not the Whistling Bird. There are a number of distinct differences in the shape of the two weapons. as seen in the images below:

Whistling Bird:

Boba Fett's wrist Rocket:

Note the differences: The Whistling bird launcher is a half cylinder, tipped with a half cone, and is mounted into the gauntlet. Fett's rocket is a full cylinder tipped with a full cone. It also has a thruster in the back, a pressure detonating warhead on the tip, and is mounted in a cradle on top of the gauntlet. That is a rocket .

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, most of those do take up Hard Points. There's actually very little that doesn't.

I'm not arguing that. But my point still stands. Boba Fett's armor, and that of his father, had a lot more attachments on their armor than what's allowed within the rules.

Fett had a rocket on his gauntlet, not the Whistling Bird. There are a number of distinct differences in the shape of the two weapons. as seen in the images below:

Whistling Bird:

Boba Fett's wrist Rocket:

Note the differences: The Whistling bird launcher is a half cylinder, tipped with a half cone, and is mounted into the gauntlet. Fett's rocket is a full cylinder tipped with a full cone. It also has a thruster in the back, a pressure detonating warhead on the tip, and is mounted in a cradle on top of the gauntlet. That is a rocket .

You have yet to demonstrate you cant make fetts armor.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Note the differences: The Whistling bird launcher is a half cylinder, tipped with a half cone, and is mounted into the gauntlet. Fett's rocket is a full cylinder tipped with a full cone. It also has a thruster in the back, a pressure detonating warhead on the tip, and is mounted in a cradle on top of the gauntlet. That is a rocket .

On the other hand, as Mandalorians are shown to be into handcrafting their stuff, it could be that Boba simply had a slightly different Whistling Bird launcher. It does have a similar cone shape with small holes in it, and there's no reason to believe that there's only one standardized design.

I'm not saying it's definitely not a micro-rocket, but given the startling similarities, only an idiot would rule a WB-launcher out altogether.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Whistling Bird:

Boba Fett's wrist Rocket:

Note the differences: The Whistling bird launcher is a half cylinder, tipped with a half cone, and is mounted into the gauntlet. Fett's rocket is a full cylinder tipped with a full cone. It also has a thruster in the back, a pressure detonating warhead on the tip, and is mounted in a cradle on top of the gauntlet. That is a rocket .

These are clearly the same weapon.

We're talking about custom, hand-made weapons and armour. There's going to be minute differences between them. There's probably not two pieces of Mandalorian hardware in existence that are 100% identical.

The micro-rocket that you are calling a Whistling Bird Launcher tapers sharply behind the warhead. So sharply, in fact, that there is just not room for the Whistling Bird missiles on the upper row