38 minutes ago, ShockHelix said:

I think you forgot to add the 2 setback the b1’s get from their defensive position, unless you canceled them out somehow.

Ah good point...

Missing setbacks : 2eS 1 failure

Still think it's one dead group.

On 11/10/2019 at 4:26 PM, MrTInce said:

Grenade launcher already out. True aim for maneuver plus quick strike boost.

Grenade launcher : 2eP+4eA+2eB+2eD 5 successes, 4 advantage

Spend two advantage for blast quality

So 15 damage to group and blast to the rest in group. Guessing nothing else is engaged.

Recover 2 strain. Drop launcher as incidental and quick draw lightsabre.

I think that takes a group out.

Did you have something to cancel out the 2 setback (specified in the ic post) if not please roll and add to the results.

Ok see that you did roll them. I concur that the group is dead

Btw if you want cover you have to spend 2 strain to take a second maneuver.

21 hours ago, Bellona said:

When the turn comes round to Mireska's CTs, I plan on upgrading their attack. May I upgrade it twice, due to them having 2 Triumphs?

Sure

18 hours ago, ShockHelix said:

Also, how many droids are there per minion group at the moment?

6

21 hours ago, Bellona said:

@EliasWindrider

Does our slicer astromech have a name?

(I'm assuming that it's just moving quietly behind us, taking cover, and generally not attracting attention so that it stays out of the line of fire.)

Do you want to pick a name for it?

10 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Do you want to pick a name for it?

Unless anyone has a better idea, how about R2-LC, known as "Elsee"?

@EliasWindrider

What is the current range set up with regard to the bridge group and their foes?

5 hours ago, Bellona said:

@EliasWindrider

What is the current range set up with regard to the bridge group and their foes?

Medium

Let's see, gonna start off by having Condor and Balyeg open fire at the droids, auto-fire.

Auto-Fire Ion at B1's : 5eP+1eA+2eD 4 successes, 1 advantage

Not much luck there, so 16 damage w/ pierce 1 against one of the droid groups. I'll use the advantage to pass a boost on to @Bellona 's first move.

I'll also make a maneuver to try and order Balyeg into the Dug in position with a leadership check.

Dig in Balyeg : 3eP+1eA+1eB+2eD 1 success, 4 advantage

That went a little better, so I'll use two advantage to turn that into an incidental instead, and then use that unused maneuver to have them move into cover for a total of 2 setback on attacks against them.

@ShockHelix

I haven't been keeping track, but did you use your Triumph (from the ARCs' failed "move quickly" Athletics check earlier)? One option was a single upgrade to the first attack roll.

Also, thank you for the Boost.

@EliasWindrider

Is a group of minions allowed to make individual attacks?

The reason why I'm asking is that standard CT minions do not have group skills in either Ranged - Light or Gunnery, which means that they have no benefit from acting in a minion group when using grenades (Ranged - Light), smaller arms (Ranged - Light), or larger, emplaced weapons (Gunnery). (Not to mention that it's a weird blind spot skill-wise for the clone soldiers.)

If they are not allowed to make individual attacks, then if they do throw a grenade as a minion group does that mean that just one of them does it (and uses up just one grenade)? Or do each of them hurl a grenade but only one of them counts as an attack - which would be extremely wasteful when one considers the encumbrance value of grenades in this system?

Also, I have a couple of questions about the squad rules due to the slightly different language used in RotSep (as opposed to the AoR GM kit).

First, do the RotSep squad rules override the AoR GM kit rules, due to them being more recent?

Secondly, am I correct in thinking that the squad effectively does not take any actions/manouevres/incidentals, but merely acts as a meat shield for its leader?

4 hours ago, Bellona said:

@EliasWindrider

Is a group of minions allowed to make individual attacks?

The reason why I'm asking is that standard CT minions do not have group skills in either Ranged - Light or Gunnery, which means that they have no benefit from acting in a minion group when using grenades (Ranged - Light), smaller arms (Ranged - Light), or larger, emplaced weapons (Gunnery). (Not to mention that it's a weird blind spot skill-wise for the clone soldiers.)

If they are not allowed to make individual attacks, then if they do throw a grenade as a minion group does that mean that just one of them does it (and uses up just one grenade)? Or do each of them hurl a grenade but only one of them counts as an attack - which would be extremely wasteful when one considers the encumbrance value of grenades in this system?

I believe the official way to do this is minion group can disband as either a maneuver or action I forget which and then can take per minion action, it takes another maneuver/action to form a minion group (which enables them to use group skills), as a minion group they should all be taking the same action to get the perhaps zero die best from being in a group, I'm not sure whether @ShockHelix has been playing it that way and narrating individual actions or mildly breaking the rules and letting his clone commandos benefit from group skills while using a weapon that only one of them has. But it's really not that big a deal and I'm willing to fudge a little bit on this so if you want one of your minions to be able to throw a single grenade (with ranged light which they don't benefit from being in a group) without disbanding then rebanding after the attack, that's fine by me.

4 hours ago, Bellona said:

Also, I have a couple of questions about the squad rules due to the slightly different language used in RotSep (as opposed to the AoR GM kit).

First, do the RotSep squad rules override the AoR GM kit rules, due to them being more recent?

Secondly, am I correct in thinking that the squad effectively does not take any actions/manouevres/incidentals, but merely acts as a meat shield for its leader?

I haven't looked at them side by side to see any technical differences (beyond different wording saying the same thing) and based on memory alone I'm not definitively picking up any differences but I'm guessing that maybe an extra leadership dice role to order squadding up and a triumph granting a maneuver?... was that the question if not specifically what was the concern, we could go either way, we could just pick one and go with it, whichever you thought was more advantageous.

7 hours ago, ShockHelix said:

Let's see, gonna start off by having Condor and Balyeg open fire at the droids, auto-fire.

Auto-Fire Ion at B1's : 5eP+1eA+2eD 4 successes, 1 advantage

Not much luck there, so 16 damage w/ pierce 1 against one of the droid groups. I'll use the advantage to pass a boost on to @Bellona 's first move.

I'll also make a maneuver to try and order Balyeg into the Dug in position with a leadership check.

Dig in Balyeg : 3eP+1eA+1eB+2eD 1 success, 4 advantage

That went a little better, so I'll use two advantage to turn that into an incidental instead, and then use that unused maneuver to have them move into cover for a total of 2 setback on attacks against them.

I believe autofire adds a purple and while studded either you or your minions attack you seem to be using your agility and your minions skill which I don't believe is kosher. Maybe this is one of the differences @Bellona is referring to.

I also believe dug in replaced cover, but I'd have to check that. So I'm going to have to check the rules on this and it may need to be voided.

44 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I haven't looked at them side by side to see any technical differences (beyond different wording saying the same thing) and based on memory alone I'm not definitively picking up any differences but I'm guessing that maybe an extra leadership dice role to order squadding up and a triumph granting a maneuver?... was that the question if not specifically what was the concern, we could go either way, we could just pick one and go with it, whichever you thought was more advantageous.

(Numerous expletives about the forum losing most of my original post - twice. Now trying to re-create the original post in toto.)

Regarding the differences between the AoR GM Kit and RotSep, the newer rules limit the squad to 10 plus leader (instead of 11 plus leader). There are also some other wording differences, but I'm not familiar enough with the squad rules in general to figure out if those differences are important.

The second part of that post was aimed mainly at understanding the basic function of the squad, which seems to be supporting the squad leader's actions (Boosts, etc.) and acting as a meat shield. If the leader is not doing anything which those Boosts would help (e.g., doing a Force power check) and is reluctant to use the squad merely as a meat shield, then being squadded up is not a benefit to that side of the combat encounter because it deprives that side of the squad members' actions.

On the other hand, the Dug In formation could be generally useful, as it adds an extra Setback to attacks against both the leader and the squad. By comparison, the Interact with Environment (Take Cover) manoeuvre gives a flat Ranged Defence 1 (or more, depending on circumstances) to only the minion group. But Dug In still deprives that side of the combat of the minion group's actions. Ditto for the Skirmish formation (which reduces the chance of the enemy activating Autofire or Blast weapon qualities when targeting the squad or its leader).

Like I said, I'm trying to be sure that I understand how best to use (or not use) the squad rules for my character in this situation. Mireska doesn't normally shoot at foes, she's not a sabre-monkey, and she still wants her short squad to have a useful impact on the combat.

54 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I believe the official way to do this is minion group can disband as either a maneuver or action I forget which and then can take per minion action, it takes another maneuver/action to form a minion group (which enables them to use group skills), as a minion group they should all be taking the same action to get the perhaps zero die best from being in a group, I'm not sure whether @ShockHelix has been playing it that way and narrating individual actions or mildly breaking the rules and letting his clone commandos benefit from group skills while using a weapon that only one of them has. But it's really not that big a deal and I'm willing to fudge a little bit on this so if you want one of your minions to be able to throw a single grenade (with ranged light which they don't benefit from being in a group) without disbanding then rebanding after the attack, that's fine by me.

Yeah, basically I'm looking at the possibility of one minion throwing a grenade as an action and the rest doing the regular "shoot enemies!" action. If that can be done during the same initiative slot then that would be great.

30 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I believe autofire adds a purple and while studded either you or your minions attack you seem to be using your agility and your minions skill which I don't believe is kosher. Maybe this is one of the differences @Bellona is referring to.

No, you're right, I just forgot a dice.

Forgot a Die : 1eD 0 successes, 2 threat

generate a threat and can't pass on a boost, but the damage remains the same at least, my mistake.

31 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I also believe dug in replaced cover, but I'd have to check that. So I'm going to have to check the rules on this and it may need to be voided.

I don't think RotS does, but I'm almost positive the AoR GM Kit specifies that the Dug In effect can stack with other defensive bonuses like cover.

44 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I believe the official way to do this is minion group can disband as either a maneuver or action I forget which and then can take per minion action, it takes another maneuver/action to form a minion group (which enables them to use group skills), as a minion group they should all be taking the same action to get the perhaps zero die best from being in a group, I'm not sure whether @ShockHelix has been playing it that way and narrating individual actions or mildly breaking the rules and letting his clone commandos benefit from group skills while using a weapon that only one of them has. But it's really not that big a deal and I'm willing to fudge a little bit on this so if you want one of your minions to be able to throw a single grenade (with ranged light which they don't benefit from being in a group) without disbanding then rebanding after the attack, that's fine by me.

What I've been doing so far is narrating actions for them individually, and making rolls for them as a minion group. This may be an error on my part, as I've seen it previously been done for minion groups with grenades not disbanding and only expending one grenade on a throw. I had believed that to be RAW for attacks made by minion groups, but looking at it now I haven't found a ruling on this in the books and I'm out of time for the morning.

5 hours ago, Bellona said:

Secondly, am I correct in thinking that the squad effectively does not take any actions/manouevres/incidentals, but merely acts as a meat shield for its leader?

This is how I've been doing it, and I'm fairly certain on this point it's accurate. The squad can make a free attack on a Triumph while squadded as an independent minion group, which is why I believe it was done that way. They aren't just a meat shield per say, as except in the case of blast you decide if the damage is redirected to them or not.

4 minutes ago, Bellona said:

Yeah, basically I'm looking at the possibility of one minion throwing a grenade as an action and the rest doing the regular "shoot enemies!" action.

If you're looking to make two different attacks, I'm fairly certain that no matter the ruling on minion group attacks for individual weapons, you'd need to have them separate, unless you just want them to shoot 'narratively.'

3 minutes ago, ShockHelix said:

If you're looking to make two different attacks, I'm fairly certain that no matter the ruling on minion group attacks for individual weapons, you'd need to have them separate, unless you just want them to shoot 'narratively.'

Good point.

If they do separate, do they then have to generate a new initiative slot?

1 hour ago, Bellona said:

Good point.

If they do separate, do they then have to generate a new initiative slot?

Generally speaking, whenever anything separates from its group, it doesn’t generate a new initiative slot but takes its turn immediately after the group/leader it disbanded from (unless an open initiative slot already exists.)

So for example if I was to disband the commando squad, since they didn’t get initiative they would just go immediately after Condor.

*facepalms*

I just realised that grenades are only Short range weapons (unless using a launcher like Ker'see), so my original plan for the CTs is a wash.

I guess that I'll just have them go for cover and shoot with the two Triumph upgrades.

(I suspect that my next XP will go for the range upgrade to the Move power. And that Mireska will try to get a grenade launcher for her CTs whenever she gets the chance to do so.)

Is that current destiny pool accurate? Even if not, you keep failing checks @Bellona , maybe I should start activating unmatched teamwork at the start of each encounter.

5 hours ago, ShockHelix said:

Is that current destiny pool accurate? Even if not, you keep failing checks @Bellona , maybe I should start activating unmatched teamwork at the start of each encounter.

I know that part of the first post in this OOC thread is not entirely up to date.

For example, Mireska still has taken 3 Wounds (previous combat encounter) and her WT is now 15 (bought it up with some recent XP). And the initiative slots are not updated for this combat (and the concurrent hangar combat).

The destiny pool looks correct to me (the most recent rolls for the Battle of Christophsis were in the Misc and OOC threads, around Sept. 1-3).

As for failing the checks ... it is true that Orakos/RNGesus has not always been kind to me.

But, IIRC, Unmatched Teamwork is a 1/session talent which lasts for one encounter. Didn't Condor already use Unmatched Teamwork during the last combat encounter? Or do we consider the combats on the Invincible to be one long combat encounter?

9 minutes ago, Bellona said:

But, IIRC, Unmatched Teamwork is a 1/session talent which lasts for one encounter. Didn't Condor already use Unmatched Teamwork during the last combat encounter? Or do we consider the combats on the Invincible to be one long combat encounter?

Ah, no you're right, it's once per session. Guess I shouldn't have panic burned it when it seemed like Ker'see was going down 🤣

Certainly hope the entirety of everything we do for Christophsis won't be one session though, or it'll be a long time before I have it back.

So after some more research on precedent for minions with multiple weapon types, I came across the Shoretrooper minion in Allies and Adversaries (p62/63). Their minion description actually specifies that a squad may carry 1 heavy blaster rifle, or one light repeating blaster. I may be mistaken, but it seems odd to me that it would require a squad of them to even be able to have the weapon, but then that minion would have to be removed from the squad to use it. Especially when minions like that are built around making strong use of support weapons.

The way I see it at least, isn't necessarily that the minions are making individual attacks, but rather that they are working together. Some stormtroopers might be suppressing fire while another throws out a grenade. The shoretrooper using the heavy blaster rifle is pinning down the targets while the rest try to pick off exposed bits. It's an offensive quality, but it's the same thing as minion groups being effected together by damage and effects. They're still individuals, but by working together they're making attacks as a group, not as individuals. The minion group skills don't just represent an increase in fire power, but the teamwork and increased confidence that comes along with not fighting alone. It's meant to be a narrative based game at all, so it seems even stranger to me that RAW would translate directly to 'a minion group has to actually throw 5 grenades to make a grenade attack'.

Again, could be wrong however, I just haven't found any errata yet specifying that minions need to be using the same weapon every attack, only that they have to be deployed as a minion group of the same type. Interestingly enough, it also seems like the squad rules in RotS implies that you can have different minion types in a squad, which probably would just confuse things even further.

3 hours ago, Bellona said:

For example, Mireska still has taken 3 Wounds (previous combat encounter)

@EliasWindrider

Was there a round free between the first combat and the mad dash to reach the second one?

If so, then Mireska should have taken that round to apply first aid (Medicine) to herself.