Kaz Fighters untouched, BB Hyperspace legal, Poe drops a little.

We can work with this, @gennataos impart on us your BB wisdom.

On 6/30/2020 at 3:29 PM, gennataos said:

In lieu of a points update, I guess I bring back some tweaks to this. I'm not sure why I never considered L'ulo in place of a BB rookie, other than the excitement of rehashing a 2.0 version of my best 1.0 squad. Zizi never felt right, but maybe the potential 3-die gun of L'ulo would feel better. I guess I'll find out next time I play...

Poe Dameron (68)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Blue Squadron Rookie (42)
BB Astromech (1)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Blue Squadron Rookie (42)
BB Astromech (1)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

L’ulo L’ampar (43)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

L'ulo gets Heroic now.

On 6/1/2020 at 3:01 AM, Flurpy said:

I legitimately forgot Han existed. Now that you mentioned it, he definitely should be thrown in as an idea, since he iss a couple of points cheaper than basic Poe.

Han went down 2, Poe down 1. Now, it almost feels like there's too many points to play with in the squad...

11 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

Kaz Fighters untouched, BB Hyperspace legal, Poe drops a little.

We can work with this, @gennataos impart on us your BB wisdom.

I was hoping L'ulo would get into HS, too. I hadn't tried the Poe/L'ulo/rookiex2 list yet and I'd almost bet it'd be better than Poe/rookiex3. There's an argument of preference for Kaz in place of one of the rookies, as I was playing in HS, but as it stands for HS, I think I'd stick with Poe/rookiex3. Now you have a 1-pt bid against other I1s, which can be a pretty big deal.

I just wish hyperspace meant...something.

4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

L'ulo gets Heroic now.

True! I am a fan of that!

5 hours ago, Flurpy said:

Kaz Fighters untouched, BB Hyperspace legal, Poe drops a little.

We can work with this, @gennataos impart on us your BB wisdom.

Triple BB T70s + Poe just got real in HS.

REY+POE dropped a collective...what, 3 points? Not huge, but might buy some better bids. Anything we missed, @gennataos ?

My 201 pt list is now legal 🥳 🥳 I had my fingers crossed!!!!

Heroes At Work

(67) Poe Dameron [T-70 X-wing]
(0) Jamming Beam
(0) Integrated S-foils
(1) Heroic
(2) Black One
Points: 70

(44) Red Squadron Expert [T-70 X-wing]
(0) Jamming Beam
(0) Integrated S-foils
(1) Heroic
(5) Pattern Analyzer
Points: 50

(44) Red Squadron Expert [T-70 X-wing]
(0) Jamming Beam
(0) Integrated S-foils
(1) Heroic
(5) Pattern Analyzer
Points: 50

(29) Finn [Resistance Transport Pod]
(1) Heroic
Points: 30

Total points: 200

2 hours ago, Bucknife said:

Triple BB T70s + Poe just got real in HS.

REY+POE dropped a collective...what, 3 points? Not huge, but might buy some better bids. Anything we missed, @gennataos ?

For this archetype, I don't think so. Although they're not highlighted, the I1 transport shows as HS-legal on the PDFs and in the official squad builder. That might mean something in HS.

Jeez...

Just what we needed.

Cheaper resistance. ;)

13 hours ago, gennataos said:

For this archetype, I don't think so. Although they're not highlighted, the I1 transport shows as HS-legal on the PDFs and in the official squad builder. That might mean something in HS.

2 Tractor Transports + 3 BB Blue T-70s. For folks who like Beef more than Poe.

Few things more hilarious than blocking someone, then tractoring them off into a Range 1 attack.

15 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

My 201 pt list is now legal 🥳 🥳 I had my fingers crossed!!!!

Heroes At Work

If I were to steal that, I'd fly R4 on Poe and Optics on the Reds, but looks solid either way.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

2 Tractor Transports + 3 BB Blue T-70s. For folks who like Beef more than Poe.

Few things more hilarious than blocking someone, then tractoring them off into a Range 1 attack.

I'd looked at something like that before but never tried it. It seems like a worse version of Ahkter Khan's syck list, but who knows until you try it!

I've also looked at Poe/Jess and two Ion cannon transports, which now allows Jess to have a BB astromech and just Heroic/R4 on Poe. I think I'm going to give that a whirl, maybe both of them.

Is it worth giving an ion to one?

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

I'd looked at something like that before but never tried it. It seems like a worse version of Ahkter Khan's syck list, but who knows until you try it!

I was playing around some also with R4 on the Transports instead of BBs on Blues in FlyCasual, and they're decent enough ships.

You're probably right that it's maybe not as good as 4 Scyks 2 Fangs, but not everyone is scummy. There's a lot less green dice variance, which might appeal to some players. However, it's probably not so much worse that playing it would be a horrible experience.

2 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

Is it worth giving an ion to one?

Depends on the list Tetris. 38 points for a 3/1/5/3 statline is pretty reasonable. However, if you can afford 42 for a T-70, that'd be better.

I wouldn't go 1 Tractor, 1 Ion, 3 T-70, though, since I'd rather have the droids.

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

I've also looked at Poe/Jess and two Ion cannon transports, which now allows Jess to have a BB astromech and just Heroic/R4 on Poe. I think I'm going to give that a whirl, maybe both of them.

Jess + 2 Ion Transports + 2 Tractor Transports? No... that'd be terrible. Forget I mentioned it.

4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

If I were to steal that, I'd fly R4 on Poe and Optics on the Reds, but looks solid either way.

Expound more please Fig...

On a 3 die attack AO is much less effective, and, don’t laugh, I find I don’t use R4 that much with Poe.

He just flies differently than Soonts. He rolls up to your face and blasts double modded. I tend to use his tankiness...

And I soooo LOVE flying over rocks/clouds with a Talon and still getting an action. It’s my favorite part of rules explaining each game. 😁 👍

Even IF AO were significantly better offense, it’s less balanced IMO. With PA I almost never not have a focus vs every other turn being stressed once we get into the scrum.

Also K-Turning is one of the best ways to catch an ace... opens arc and creates distance. But the ace normally relies on no mods to balance this.

CONVINCE ME MASTER FIG! 😁 👍

31 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

CONVINCE ME MASTER FIG! 😁 👍

• Well, for starters, this is a "milk no sugar" vs "cream 2 sugars" sort of thing--no wrong way to take your coffee. I guess I'm trying only to convince you both are fine.
• This whole "Optics isn't effective on 3 dice" thing is a myth . It actually adds about the same amount of damage on a 2 or 3 dice ship. On 3 dice, the extra hit is more likely to go over the top of someone's defense dice. You're looking at roughly going from 1.56 to 1.83 damage (+0.27) against 2 unmodded green dice, compared to 0.90 to 1.13 (+0.23) on two reds.
  • The trade-off is that you go from 1.56 damage against 2 defense dice on a K-Turn or T-Roll down to 0.91 damage (-0.65). If we're talking about two Optics attacks for each K-Turn attack (a pretty reasonable ratio), it works out pretty close to similar, and will come down to how you like to fly .
  • I often like Optics Reds as a threat of an unopposed flanker. Ignore Poe, and you've got two ships that are pushing nearly as much damage as Outmaneuver* Reds would be, but without regard to position. Heck, nearly as much damage as Focus/Lock Poe, against 2 unmodded greens (1.83 vs 2.06, or -0.23).
  • Optics also helps you if you decide you want to close S-Foils and Focus-Roll, and makes your 2 reds fairly consistent.
  • If you like Turn-and-Burn in the scrum more, Pattern Analyzer is better, in part because if you're bumping and blocked and without Focus, Optics doesn't really add anything.
• R4 Poe is as much because I value Optics as much as PA, and might as well with the two last points. Even if I'm mostly using Poe's durability, if I don't regret taking Optics, I'd rather have the blue hards and not use them, than miss them when I need them.

• (*) To that end, Outmaneuver vs Heroic/Pattern Analyzer is an interesting comparison.
  • Not as much damage on a T-Roll or K-Turn (1.17 vs 2-1 greens, instead of 1.56 PA)
  • But you'll have a benefit that can stack with Focus (1.88 vs 2-1 greens, instead of 1.56 Heroic or 1.83 Heroic Optics)
  • And you'll still have "mods" when you Boost or Roll for position, or bump, or fly over things with non-red moves (1.17 vs 2-1 greens, instead of 0.9 with just Heroic)
  • Downside is positional unreliability, and you'll lose the small-but-noticeable defensive benefit of Heroic
  • Again, no shame in sticking with Heroic PA, it's solid. Just that Outmaneuver is worth a few minutes of thought, particularly when there's more thinking about X-Wing and less playing X-Wing.

@theBitterFig , Thanks! 😁 👍 good points.

I guess it’s anecdotal evidence, but I almost never get to the end phase with a focus. Between D and attack I could normally spend 3 focuses 😝 .... HOWEVER I’ve not been playing with Poe, I’ve been running Chewie 3x.

I suppose if the enemy goes all POE MUST DIE NOW then AO would be welcome.

I thought about dropping B1 for R4... but it’s just so necessary on the initial engagement if he’s going hard at Poe to bail.

8 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

@theBitterFig , Thanks! 😁 👍 good points.

I guess it’s anecdotal evidence, but I almost never get to the end phase with a focus. Between D and attack I could normally spend 3 focuses 😝 .... HOWEVER I’ve not been playing with Poe, I’ve been running Chewie 3x.

I suppose if the enemy goes all POE MUST DIE NOW then AO would be welcome.

I thought about dropping B1 for R4... but it’s just so necessary on the initial engagement if he’s going hard at Poe to bail.

I'm inclined to think B1 is better than R4... But I also suck at Poe, so...

As to Optics and Anecdotes, maybe I'm just stuck in my ways, but I keep saying "trust the math." That and Heroic, even though they don't "feel" like they're working, have long-run positive outcomes.

If you want another opinion, I think all of Outmanoeuver, Advanced Options and Pattern Analyzer are not needed.

I have yet to put any of those 3 on an X-Wing other than PA on Nien and Nien to me is still just a gimmicky X-Wing. I would rather fit in more ships or better pilots than upgrade existing one.

But I have in general a Spartan approach to upgrades. Everyone gets Heroic but other than than you need to have an exact reason to put a specific Upgrade in a list.

18 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

If you want another opinion, I think all of Outmanoeuver, Advanced Options and Pattern Analyzer are not needed.

I have yet to put any of those 3 on an X-Wing other than PA on Nien and Nien to me is still just a gimmicky X-Wing. I would rather fit in more ships or better pilots than upgrade existing one.

But I have in general a Spartan approach to upgrades. Everyone gets Heroic but other than than you need to have an exact reason to put a specific Upgrade in a list.

To be sure, Jess or Bastian does more damage than an Optics Red. Your results have clearly show these two to be more successful.

But everyone has their hoops to jump through. Focus firing is good, so Bastian is good. The list probably often wants to hang fairly close together, so Jess gets her stuff working. But a generic like an Optics Red has maybe a simpler restriction. Just have a focus. Even if you give up something, even if the net result is worse, there's *something* gained, a different play-style.

44 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

To be sure, Jess or Bastian does more damage than an Optics Red. Your results have clearly show these two to be more successful.

But everyone has their hoops to jump through. Focus firing is good, so Bastian is good. The list probably often wants to hang fairly close together, so Jess gets her stuff working. But a generic like an Optics Red has maybe a simpler restriction. Just have a focus. Even if you give up something, even if the net result is worse, there's *something* gained, a different play-style.

Yeah yeah, I wasn't discarding a different play style at all. Variety is the spice of life and all that, just wanted to give another options to consider.

1 minute ago, Flurpy said:

Yeah yeah, I wasn't discarding a different play style at all. Variety is the spice of life and all that, just wanted to give another options to consider.

I think if you're choosing between R4 and title on Poe, you always choose R4. If you're consistently putting Poe in a position to get nuked on the initial engagement and need that "get out of jail card" of the title, then I think you need to change up how you're playing him. It's okay if he takes a punch as long as he and the rest of the list are punching back. He just shouldn't be landing in the middle of all opposing firing arcs.

I'm of the opinion that a generic T-70 should have nothing but a BB astro and/or Heroic. I know some folks like Optics or Hull Upgrade, but I don't think Optics is worth it on a 3-die gun aside from Kylo and adding another health to a T-70 doesn't move the half-point threshold.

Lastly, why have I not seen anyone run this? Like, ever...anywhere on ListFortress. Someone ran Jess/Redx2/Bastian, all with BB astros, which is kind of the same thing (maybe better?). I promise the kill boxes one can create with it would be glorious. I might have to try it myself, I'm just such a Poe fanboy and think that I6 is really useful against a lot of the meta.

Red Squadron Expert (44)
Heroic (1)
BB Astromech (3)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Red Squadron Expert (44)
Heroic (1)
BB Astromech (3)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Red Squadron Expert (44)
Heroic (1)
BB Astromech (3)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Jessika Pava (51)
BB Astromech (3)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

2 hours ago, Flurpy said:

If you want another opinion, I think all of Outmanoeuver, Advanced Options and Pattern Analyzer are not needed.

I have yet to put any of those 3 on an X-Wing other than PA on Nien and Nien to me is still just a gimmicky X-Wing. I would rather fit in more ships or better pilots than upgrade existing one.

But I have in general a Spartan approach to upgrades. Everyone gets Heroic but other than than you need to have an exact reason to put a specific Upgrade in a list.

What would you do?

6 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I think if you're choosing between R4 and title on Poe, you always choose R4. If you're consistently putting Poe in a position to get nuked on the initial engagement and need that "get out of jail card" of the title, then I think you need to change up how you're playing him. It's okay if he takes a punch as long as he and the rest of the list are punching back. He just shouldn't be landing in the middle of all opposing firing arcs.

I'm of the opinion that a generic T-70 should have nothing but a BB astro and/or Heroic. I know some folks like Optics or Hull Upgrade, but I don't think Optics is worth it on a 3-die gun aside from Kylo and adding another health to a T-70 doesn't move the half-point threshold.

Lastly, why have I not seen anyone run this? Like, ever...anywhere on ListFortress. Someone ran Jess/Redx2/Bastian, all with BB astros, which is kind of the same thing (maybe better?). I promise the kill boxes one can create with it would be glorious. I might have to try it myself, I'm just such a Poe fanboy and think that I6 is really useful against a lot of the meta.

Red Squadron Expert (44)
Heroic (1)
BB Astromech (3)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Red Squadron Expert (44)
Heroic (1)
BB Astromech (3)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Red Squadron Expert (44)
Heroic (1)
BB Astromech (3)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Jessika Pava (51)
BB Astromech (3)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Love the all ps 3

39 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Lastly, why have I not seen anyone run this? Like, ever...anywhere on ListFortress. Someone ran Jess/Redx2/Bastian, all with BB astros, which is kind of the same thing (maybe better?). I promise the kill boxes one can create with it would be glorious. I might have to try it myself, I'm just such a Poe fanboy and think that I6 is really useful against a lot of the meta.

{3 BB Reds and Jess}

If I had to guess, Hyperspace. I mentioned it back in January with the last update in a big Quad T-70 thread, but back then it was an extended-only list of Init 3 Jousters, and we'd just started getting Kaz.

3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

If I had to guess, Hyperspace. I mentioned it back in January with the last update in a big Quad T-70 thread, but back then it was an extended-only list of Init 3 Jousters, and we'd just started getting Kaz.

Duh, of course, thanks!

46 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

What would you do?

Listen to @gennataos

He echoed my thoughts on what to put on generics perfectly in the above post.