4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, Established comm ranges aren't contradictory. And, the book says that ship comm ranges are the same as Sensor ranges, You're mis-quoting the book. Nowhere in the book does it say what you think it does. It defines the various ships' and vehicles' sensor ranges based upon standard planetary scale ranges:

Close: several kilometers

Short a few dozen kilometers

Medium, fifty or so kilometers in atmosphere, a few hundred in space

Long, a few hundred kilometers in atmosphere, a few thousand in space

Extreme: Several thousand kilometers.

Those are the ranges and distances within them. There is nothing in the book that contradicts that.

Those are the sensor ranges according to the rule book. and, ships comms equal those ranges.

You're getting it backwards. IF a ship has close range sensors, they only go out to a few kilometers, and given that comms are limited to sensor range, they too only go out to a few kilometers. IT's that simple. There is no contradiction there.

The only passage that even remotely suggests any comms reaching orbit are certain personal comlinks. Close Range comms do not reach orbit. Close range sensors do not reach orbit. There is no contradiction here.

Give me a page number and quote to prove me wrong. I have given you direct pages and quotes to back me up. There is nothing in the rule book that contradicts that.

If you’re not going do follow the RAW on sensor ranges and keep trying to railroad me into a space battle with the TIE fighters and Star Destroyer, don’t GM for me. Your “ruling” is in direct contradiction to RAW.

I have stated my intended actions which are perfectly in line with RAW, and the narrative system of this game, so let me attempt to do so.

4 conflict, care to make it 8?

The interaction of movement, weapons, sensors, comms RAW is contradictory. It's up to the GM, me, to resolve that contradiction in a narratively sensible way.

NOTE I am expecting a response to the next sentence

I know I am not making the "cut" in the the way that you would like but have you even stopped to consider the absurdity of making the cut the way you are demanding, namely that the sensor and comm range for a TIE fighter is essentially naked eyeball visible range for a human with good eyesight (while i know that star wars and real world physics don't mix well, i do want to point out how absurd this is, a speed 2 ship has to be able to travel at least 8.4 km/sec to reach orbit, seconds in the denominator is NOT a typo, meaning that a speed 5 tie has to be able to travel at least 20 km/sec, so having only a few km of sensor range means they can't see what's in front of them before they hit it, yeah it's that absurd)?

You are permitted and expected to address that sentence, trying to argue ANYTHING else will double the conflict again.

TIEs can comm to low orbit (a helmet comlink can reach low orbit) and sensors have more in common with comms than with weapons. So I cut between weapons and sensors not between sensors and comm. That is the explanation of the logic so that you can follow it.

While I do chain actual related rules together and logically resolve contradictions in RAW in a manner that you do not like, unlike you I do not chain unrelated flavor text together in a way that disadvantages a player and claim they are rules.

Also, unlike you I do not railroad my players into encounters.

I've repeatedly said that RACING TO ORBIT AND JUMPING AWAY is the easiest/safest way to escape WITHOUT fighting the tie fighters, and unless you make a frontal assault on the star destroyer you don't even have to worry about fighting it (it's a set piece for dramatic tension, nothing more, at least not until you make it something more)

By choosing to stay in atmosphere YOU are choosing to NOT disengage from the tie fighters because you can't outrun them in atmosphere because they are faster than you, are flanking you, and have infinite opportunities to catch up. And I'm getting tired of repeating that.

Even if you were 100% right about there being no contradiction in the sensor rules, and the resolution of the "apparent contradiction" happened in the logically absurd way that you are demanding. The chase rules are completely optional rules to be used solely at the discretion of the GM, players aren't entitled to demand a chase scene. So even if you were 100% right in all of your rules lawyering, you still wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Besides which, even if you were "unwise/unfortunate" enough to choose a "foolish" course of action that results in you fighting the ties, sequentially fighting 3 minion groups of 4 ties each should not be a big deal for you manning the jedi star by yourself especially if you man the guns to get 2 attacks per round (with the gunnery droid brain making the second attack) and let hacker or the pilot droid brain fly the ship.

I have no idea why you would expect other GMs to screw a player over for no good reason. I know it's something you've actually done in the past to me, but I have no intention of being that petty in return. I'm not looking for payback, and I'm not bitter about it. I do think you as a real life person would be better off if you deep sixed Korath (how fiercely you've argued this is proof of that) and started playing another character that you weren't so emotionally invested-in/dependant-on but I'm only running this game as a favor to you to help you finish off Korath's unfinished business so you can have narratively satisfying closure (because I'm 99.99% sure that no other GM on the planet will give that to you). I have no intention of trying to "take Korath away from you" before you get that. Yes I know you are fringe enough to think that something highly likely to get Korath killed is the safest course of action which is why I've been spelling out the consequences of your fringe ideas when you propose them rather than making you roll first before warning you of the danger.

So grow up, man up, and get your head back in the game. This is collaborative story telling not an adversarial GM vs. Player bloodsport.

@Tramp Graphics

If you insist on following your ill advised course of action, I will let you attempt it as an impossible check (spend a dp just to attempt a 4 purple, 1 red, 3 black deception check), however the highly unlikely best case outcome is that 3 minion groups of 2 ties each follow the missile and 3 minion groups of 2 ties each continue to follow the jedi star, that would give you a window of opportunity to attempt to destroy 6 ties (if you don't want them reporting on your exit vector) and get away (by jumping to hyperspace) before the other 6 ties figured out they'd been tricked and resume chasing you.

If you'd prefer a different course of action I'm open to that too, but the jedi star is not going to outrun tie fighter in atmosphere, it's impossible... wait a minute there are rules for impossible checks...So if you want to try to outrun them I'll allow it provided that you spend a dp for each pilot check just to attempt it, heck I'll even say that the Destiny pool is currently 2 white since that's the best it could be for a single player, so you'd be able to attempt 2 pilot checks to outrun the ties.

Elias, when I am using the Full Throttle talents, the effects of which last for two rounds each use, and thus be used every two rounds, my speed becomes equal to a TIE fighter's. Therefore, the TIE fighters are no longer "faster" than me as long as the Full Throttle talents are active. Not only that, but the Short Cut talents, specifically the Improved Short Cut , gives me automatic successes equal to my ranks in Short Cut to my piloting checks to either catch or escape my foes during chases. Secondly, the only time that differences in speed come into play during a chase is when the "faster" ship has more successes on the competitive check , in that the faster ship increases or decreases the range bands between the ships involved by a value equal to the differences in the ships' speeds. And, as per the chase rules, each side makes a simple piloting check (with setbacks added based upon terrain modifiers). Since, I have all three Full Throttle talents, as well as both Short Cut talents, I can maintain a speed equal to that of the TIE fighters as long as I succeed at an average Piloting check every two rounds , and then make enough successful piloting checks with more successes than my opponents, to get beyond Extreme range of the TIE fighters. That is not that hard to do.

Secondly, racing to orbit with a star destroyer directly overhead is suicide . Not only that, but as long as I am within sensor range and within line of sight of said star destoryer, they can track my trajectory and plot possible destinations along said trajectory. The only way to make a clean escape into hyperspace is to make the jump completely out of view of said star derstroyer, and that means getting over the horizon and out of it's line of sight.

To no, racing to orbit is not the safest bet. It is SUICIDE.

At 20 Km per second, a TIE fighter would be travelling at 72,000 Km per hour (Mach 58.77) in atmosphere. A TIE fighter would be ripped apart at that speed. Canonically a TIE fighter only has a speed of 1200 kilometers (745.6454 miles) per hour (333.3333 meters per second). That is Mach .98. That's it. That's not even breaking the sound barrier. That is less than one sixtieth of the speed you think that they "need" to reach. That is all Speed 5 is in atmosphere. You are vastly overestimating how fast Star Wars ships fly in atmosphere. And that is where you're "contradictions" come in. You are creating the "contradictions" by assuming speeds not actually represented in canon, neither in the vehicles' stats, nor how they're depicted on screen.

Not only that but Star Wars ships don't need to reach the real world "escape velocities" to reach orbit or escape a planet's gravity like we do because they have Antigravity Repulsor engines. Star Wars ships can actually cancel gravity . More accurately, they push against gravity. and actually repel it.

Quote

The repulsorlift or repulsorlift engine , often referred to simply as a repulsor , was an anti-gravity technology capable of levitating an object. It was created from subnuclear "knots" of space-time made by enormous unmanned power refineries encompassing black holes . ^[1] Repulsorlifts were widely used, and were included on virtually every type of vehicle.

- Repulsorlift (Legends)

Therefore, they can reach orbit at much slower speeds. Therefore, your real world "requirements" are not required for a Star Wars ship, and are not accurate, and thus, you are greatly overestimating the speeds of TIE fighters. Canonically , they only move at 1200 KM per hour in atmosphere. In other words, TIE fighters fly in atmosphere at roughly the same speeds as a typical fighter jet. The YZ-900 normally has a top atmospheric speed of 950 KmPH , but with the Full Throttle talents (including Improved and Supreme), I can temporarily boost that up to equal to the TIE fighters' 1200 KmPH. A T-65 X-Wing fighter (also Speed 5) has a canonical top speed of 1050 KmPH. So, I don't know where you're getting the 20 Km per second speed from, but it is not from canon. And that is where you are screwing up and why I do not accept your "ruling".

Based upon those canon speeds, what I am trying to accomplish is not as "impossible" as you assume. IF you go by a TIE Fighter's actual canon speed of 1200 KM Per Hour, (333.3333 Meters per second), with a Close range of 10-15 Km) t hat gives a TIE Pilot a reaction time of more than 30-45 seconds to react to something at it's maximum passive sensor range.

Third, The TIE fighter's actual comms only reach as far as the ships sensors. If the pilot has a separate comlink built into his helmet with a longer range, that has nothing to do with the ship's built in comms themselves. But the TIE fighter itself only has a comm range equal close range (10-15 kilometers or so). Any further and they'd need to use a radio relay, patched into Communications Satellites . In space, ships often use a Communications relay . In fact, such a "relay" can easily be achieved by simply using a specialized ship with long-range comms to relay comms between the TIEs and the SD. Simple buoys or towers work just as well. And remember, a Star Destroyer has a much longer sensor (and comms) range. And, even then, the only TIE pilot who would have such a “long range” com link would be the flight leader .

Therefore, your "ruling" is based upon faulty information . It is not based upon canon, nor the game's rules. As such, you are creating the"contradiction" where there is none . There is no contradiction in the RAW, nor Canon. TIE fighters do not fly as fast as you think they do. They only fly at 1200 KmPH (Mach .98) in atmosphere. And that is where your numbers are getting screwed up.

When you apply the speeds established in canon, (speed 5 being roughly equal to about 1000-1500 Km per hour in atmosphere ), Those "contradictions" disappear.

If I can get beyond the TIE Fighters' maximum Active sensor range (Short range), and launch that tracker, all they will be able to track is the tracker. With that accomplished, once I get beyond Extreme range, I will have lost them. That is my goal: Get beyond Extreme range of the TIEs (and the SD), and get out of line of sight of the Star Destroyer before heading into orbit and calculating a hyperspace vector. And flying low to the surface is the best way to accomplish that because it confuses sensors, particularly RADAR, and First Order sensors are particularly susceptible to that.

On 3/11/2018 at 2:34 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Elias, when I am using the Full Throttle talents, the effects of which last for two rounds each use, and thus be used every two rounds, my speed becomes equal to a TIE fighter's. Therefore, the TIE fighters are no longer "faster" than me as long as the Full Throttle talents are active. Not only that, but the Short Cut talents, specifically the Improved Short Cut , gives me automatic successes equal to my ranks in Short Cut to my piloting checks to either catch or escape my foes during chases. Secondly, the only time that differences in speed come into play during a chase is when the "faster" ship has more successes on the competitive check , in that the faster ship increases or decreases the range bands between the ships involved by a value equal to the differences in the ships' speeds. And, as per the chase rules, each side makes a simple piloting check (with setbacks added based upon terrain modifiers). Since, I have all three Full Throttle talents, as well as both Short Cut talents, I can maintain a speed equal to that of the TIE fighters as long as I succeed at an average Piloting check every two rounds , and then make enough successful piloting checks with more successes than my opponents, to get beyond Extreme range of the TIE fighters. That is not that hard to do.

Secondly, racing to orbit with a star destroyer directly overhead is suicide . Not only that, but as long as I am within sensor range and within line of sight of said star destoryer, they can track my trajectory and plot possible destinations along said trajectory. The only way to make a clean escape into hyperspace is to make the jump completely out of view of said star derstroyer, and that means getting over the horizon and out of it's line of sight.

To no, racing to orbit is not the safest bet. It is SUICIDE.

At 20 Km per second, a TIE fighter would be travelling at 72,000 Km per hour (Mach 58.77) in atmosphere. A TIE fighter would be ripped apart at that speed. Canonically a TIE fighter only has a speed of 1200 kilometers (745.6454 miles) per hour (333.3333 meters per second). That is Mach .98. That's it. That's not even breaking the sound barrier. That is less than one sixtieth of the speed you think that they "need" to reach. That is all Speed 5 is in atmosphere. You are vastly overestimating how fast Star Wars ships fly in atmosphere. And that is where you're "contradictions" come in. You are creating the "contradictions" by assuming speeds not actually represented in canon, neither in the vehicles' stats, nor how they're depicted on screen.

Not only that but Star Wars ships don't need to reach the real world "escape velocities" to reach orbit or escape a planet's gravity like we do because they have Antigravity Repulsor engines. Star Wars ships can actually cancel gravity . More accurately, they push against gravity. and actually repel it.

- Repulsorlift (Legends)

Therefore, they can reach orbit at much slower speeds. Therefore, your real world "requirements" are not required for a Star Wars ship, and are not accurate, and thus, you are greatly overestimating the speeds of TIE fighters. Canonically , they only move at 1200 KM per hour in atmosphere. In other words, TIE fighters fly in atmosphere at roughly the same speeds as a typical fighter jet. The YZ-900 normally has a top atmospheric speed of 950 KmPH , but with the Full Throttle talents (including Improved and Supreme), I can temporarily boost that up to equal to the TIE fighters' 1200 KmPH. A T-65 X-Wing fighter (also Speed 5) has a canonical top speed of 1050 KmPH. So, I don't know where you're getting the 20 Km per second speed from, but it is not from canon. And that is where you are screwing up and why I do not accept your "ruling".

Based upon those canon speeds, what I am trying to accomplish is not as "impossible" as you assume. IF you go by a TIE Fighter's actual canon speed of 1200 KM Per Hour, (333.3333 Meters per second), with a Close range of 10-15 Km) t hat gives a TIE Pilot a reaction time of more than 30-45 seconds to react to something at it's maximum passive sensor range.

Third, The TIE fighter's actual comms only reach as far as the ships sensors. If the pilot has a separate comlink built into his helmet with a longer range, that has nothing to do with the ship's built in comms themselves. But the TIE fighter itself only has a comm range equal close range (10-15 kilometers or so). Any further and they'd need to use a radio relay, patched into Communications Satellites . In space, ships often use a Communications relay . In fact, such a "relay" can easily be achieved by simply using a specialized ship with long-range comms to relay comms between the TIEs and the SD. Simple buoys or towers work just as well. And remember, a Star Destroyer has a much longer sensor (and comms) range. And, even then, the only TIE pilot who would have such a “long range” com link would be the flight leader .

Therefore, your "ruling" is based upon faulty information . It is not based upon canon, nor the game's rules. As such, you are creating the"contradiction" where there is none . There is no contradiction in the RAW, nor Canon. TIE fighters do not fly as fast as you think they do. They only fly at 1200 KmPH (Mach .98) in atmosphere. And that is where your numbers are getting screwed up.

When you apply the speeds established in canon, (speed 5 being roughly equal to about 1000-1500 Km per hour in atmosphere ), Those "contradictions" disappear.

If I can get beyond the TIE Fighters' maximum Active sensor range (Short range), and launch that tracker, all they will be able to track is the tracker. With that accomplished, once I get beyond Extreme range, I will have lost them. That is my goal: Get beyond Extreme range of the TIEs (and the SD), and get out of line of sight of the Star Destroyer before heading into orbit and calculating a hyperspace vector. And flying low to the surface is the best way to accomplish that because it confuses sensors, particularly RADAR, and First Order sensors are particularly susceptible to that.

Doubling conflict again from 4 to 8 for you arguing against the physics definition of "orbit" (you probably didn't know that you were arguing against orbit being orbit because you don't know what orbit means, here's a hint it's continually falling PAST a planet or other gravitational body so it requires a speed that depends on the strength of and distance from a gravitational body). FYI I was using orbital speeds not escape velocities, so regardless of the type of drives used the numbers are relevant. Top speed IN ATMOSPHERE does not indicate top speed overall since atmosphere effectively ends a little less than 160 km up and gets thinner before that (actually atmosphere never ends the air just gets thinner and thinner to a point where you have to treat it as random particle impacts rather than a continuum). Being able to not crash into what's in front of you while in orbit does imply a certain sensor range. And 2 space vehicles having the same orbital radius and speed does not imply that they are moving in the same direction, hence the possibility of a collision and the need to see what's in front of you. Coupled with comm ranges, that means tie sensors close range reaches to low orbit from the surface and short range reaches from the center of the planet to low orbit. I.e. you need to get beyond extreme planetary range to loose them. But you being ignorant of the definition of orbit isn't relevant here.

Also the star destroyer is NOT directly above you so the safest escape route is racing to space.

But you being willing to try to get beyond extreme range instead of short coupled with your discussion of your talents is more convincing though. So I'm going to allow a chase scene.

Of course you've apparently missed something about full throttle. By RAW it increases your TOP speed not your SPEED and being a sil 5 ship you can't PUNCH IT so it will take a maneuver to increase your speed by 1 closer to your new top speed and that is a maneuver you can't use for movement. Also you forgot to mention the 2 strain to use your improved shortcut. What was your last ESTABLISHED current value of strain?

The difficulty of the competitive check will be the silhouette of the vehicle the pilots are flying respectively, so 5 purple for you and 3 for them. You will be competing against 3 minion groups, each of the 3 minion groups will be rolling 3 yellow plus boosts equal to the handling of the ties which is 3. You need to beat all 3 minion groups on particilar roll to move a range band out, and because they are flanking you, the first round you succeed is a wash (accounts for the flanking). After you start running, any round a minion group is within close range of you they will take a shot. You need to beat ALL of the tie MINION GROUPS on 6 rolls to ditch them (the net 6 successful rolls includes the effect of flanking), any roll in which they beat you erases one of your wins. Any round in which you're travelling at less than speed 5 counts as an automatic win for them for the round.

BTW if you launch the torpedo with the tracker on it before you get to extreme range you're going to have to succeed at an impossible deception check for it to not be a complete waste, if you do succeed on the impossible deception check half the ties will peel off to follow it and the remaining 6 will form a single minion group with a 3 yellow 2 green 3 blue pilot check and the total net number of winning rounds drops to 5 (because they won't be flanking you anymore)

BTW if you read the description of pilot planetary vs space size of the vehicle is listed in planetary not space. I think that pilot space is the marginaly more appropriate pilot skill for piloting a spacecraft in a planet's atmosphere but as long as your in atmosphere I am going to apply the pilot planetary vehicle size difficulty if you decide to race for space both you and the ties will drop the respective 5/3 purples from your dice pools.

No they do not!!!! By RAW, A vehicles built in comms are limited to their sensor range, which, for a TIE Fighter is Close range , and that is only a about 10 to 15 kilometers, no more. They do not reach into orbit. It is only certain personal comlinks which have that capability. A ship's comms, by RAW are limited to what the ship's sensors are limited to , and they are limited to the specific distances covered in their range band listing. Therefore, Close Range sensors are limited to only around 10 to 15 kilomters, not several thousand kilometers. to quote:

Quote

" Close range, in planetary scale is slightly farther out from extreme range in personal scale., and can cover everything from a few meters up to several kilometers."

This distance range is listed before it mentions the differences between atmosphere and space speeds. This is also true of Short Range, which is "anything up to roughly several dozen kilometers" , whether in atmosphere or in space. This is by RAW. The only point in where there are differences in how far a range band extends is when we hit Medium range and longer . In Close and Short range, there is no difference between atmosphere and space in regards to how far that range band extends. Several thousand kilometers is LONG RANGE in space and EXTREME RANGE in atmosphere. You are WRONG!!!! Close range sensors do not reach orbital distances.

Also, as far as real world orbital velocities go, those are irrelevant in Star Wars , The speeds of Star Wars ships are not the same as what is required in the real world. We don't see starfighters in the movies flying at Mach 58 in the battle of Yavin nor the Battle of Endor . They move not much faster than they do in atmosphere. To be specific, canonically, 1 MGLT (a megalight unit) per hour = 1 meter per second, or 3.6 KmPH. A TIE Fighter has a top Space speed of 100 MGLT (which is actually kind of slow), which is the time it takes to pass a stationary 1200 meter long MC80 from bow to stern in 12 seconds (this is what we see in RotJ).

As far as my movement, by the time you "took over" I had already been moving at speed 5 , so I don't need to "punch it" anyway. I just need to maintain my Full Throttle by making another check. By the time the TIE Fighters originally started chasing the Jedi Star , it had already taken off and had gotten up to it's normal top speed. Thus, all I needed to do was use my Full Throttle talents.

As for any “Conflict “ you can’t use that as a “punishment” for a player arguing with you. You know better than that. It’s not designed for that and in explicitly intended for role-playing. Conflict can only be given for a character’s actions. It should also be obvious that this tactic isn’t working to “shut me up”.

5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No they do not!!!! By RAW, A vehicles built in comms are limited to their sensor range, which, for a TIE Fighter is Close range , and that is only a about 10 to 15 kilometers, no more. They do not reach into orbit. It is only certain personal comlinks which have that capability. A ship's comms, by RAW are limited to what the ship's sensors are limited to , and they are limited to the specific distances covered in their range band listing. Therefore, Close Range sensors are limited to only around 10 to 15 kilomters, not several thousand kilometers. to quote:

This distance range is listed before it mentions the differences between atmosphere and space speeds. This is also true of Short Range, which is "anything up to roughly several dozen kilometers" , whether in atmosphere or in space. This is by RAW. The only point in where there are differences in how far a range band extends is when we hit Medium range and longer . In Close and Short range, there is no difference between atmosphere and space in regards to how far that range band extends. Several thousand kilometers is LONG RANGE in space and EXTREME RANGE in atmosphere. You are WRONG!!!! Close range sensors do not reach orbital distances.

Also, as far as real world orbital velocities go, those are irrelevant in Star Wars , The speeds of Star Wars ships are not the same as what is required in the real world. We don't see starfighters in the movies flying at Mach 58 in the battle of Yavin nor the Battle of Endor . They move not much faster than they do in atmosphere. To be specific, canonically, 1 MGLT (a megalight unit) per hour = 1 meter per second, or 3.6 KmPH. A TIE Fighter has a top Space speed of 100 MGLT (which is actually kind of slow), which is the time it takes to pass a stationary 1200 meter long MC80 from bow to stern in 12 seconds (this is what we see in RotJ).

As far as my movement, by the time you "took over" I had already been moving at speed 5 , so I don't need to "punch it" anyway. I just need to maintain my Full Throttle by making another check. By the time the TIE Fighters originally started chasing the Jedi Star , it had already taken off and had gotten up to it's normal top speed. Thus, all I needed to do was use my Full Throttle talents.

As for any “Conflict “ you can’t use that as a “punishment” for a player arguing with you. You know better than that. It’s not designed for that and in explicitly intended for role-playing. Conflict can only be given for a character’s actions. It should also be obvious that this tactic isn’t working to “shut me up”.

16 conflict, because you/Korath are trying to bend the universe by force of will and that's darkside. You also knew the terms when you accepted me as GM so you're S.O.L.

If you want Korath to go full on darkside for a fit of rage while he's flying the Jedi Star because he's having difficulty getting away from a squadron of tie fighters, by all means keep arguing (next conflict jump is to 32, followed by to 64)

I however do not want Korath to go dark side but am fairly convinced that you will keep arguing unless I use onscreen evidence to illustrate com ranges. So... A t-65 xwing also has "close" sensor range and in ANH was able to comm the rebel base on yavin 4 while attacking the death star when it was far beyond "low orbit" so if anything I'm underestimating comm/sensor ranges. The onscreen evidence should convince you, but if it does not at least you've received fair warning that you are about to go dark side, and whether or not that happens depends on whether you/Korath continue to try to bend the universe to your will.

By the way, SINCE I took over you dropped to speed 3 so that the astromech could remove the tracker, so you actually need to make the full throttle check again and spend the 2 maneuvers to get up to speed 5.

Also you're quoting legends numbers as if they were cannon; they're not. I'm the GM, I decide what's cannon for the game, I'm going by Disney cannon (to the best of my knowledge of it), and I'm making allowances for visual effects not being 100% accurate (like when star killer base destroyed the new republic capital world(s) you couldn't see the streaks of light from different star systems which was flat out said to be an inconsistent special effect for dramatic purposes).

In case it was unclear, THIS

is the guy who has exhibited darkside behavior by trying to bend the universe to his will, he's now a bit older than in the picture and uses a dark blue lightsaber.

@Tramp Graphics still waiting for you to take your action

First off, I neither agreed nor disagreed with you taking over. You simply assumed agreement and took over.

Second, The droid was working on removing the tracker while the ship was traveling at speed five, hence the higher difficulty mechanics roll. A second mechanics check ( with boost dice gained from the advantages rolled on the first attempt) would have likely succeeded without requiring the ship to slow down. So no, the intention was to maintain speed five, not slow down. Don’t assume anything.

Third, remember, Yavin base and star destroyers have longer range sensors and comms (Star Destroyers have Long range sensors). The fighters were able to communicate with the base because of the base’s comms range, not the fighters’. You are also ignoring the use of communication relays, which have been established in canon, and in real life use to boost communication ranges. There is also specifically designed long range communication attachment in the rules, although stock TIE fighters can’t benefit from it because they lack hard points. However, a flight commander’s unit might potentially have one.

Fourth, your “interpretation” of the Full Throttle talents can’t be correct for one simple reason. Given that the talents are useable with ships up to silhouette five, and silhouette five ships are limited to only one pilot only maneuver per turn , if said ship had to spend two turns to accelerate up to their “new” top speed the effects of the Supreme Full Throttle talent would end before the ship reached that speed. As such, the ship could never increase its speed by two.

Fifth, the chase rules state that the chase is over if the chased party gets beyond Extreme range. Thus a deception check would be unnecessary by that point. That has nothing to do with when I would need to launch the tracker. As long as I can get beyond Short range from the TIEs, and beyond extreme from the Star Destroyer, the only thing they would be able to track is the tracker. And that is when a deception check would be most beneficial and appropriate.

Sixth, RAW is explicitly clear regarding the planetary range bands. Close range is limited to only “several” kilometers, not several thousand. TIE fighters have Close range sensors. This limits their sensor range to roughly ten to fifteen kilometers, twenty at the most , and a few dozen kilometers if they’re using active mode. That’s it by RAW . You are the one trying to “bend reality”. I am insisting on you following what the rules explicitly say about the range bands. And by RAW, TIE fighter sensors cannot reach orbital distances. They are limited to only about ten to fifteen kilometers or so in passive mode, and a few dozen kilometers in active mode. I already told you if you aren’t going to abide by the RAW don’t GM for me.

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

First off, I neither agreed nor disagreed with you taking over. You simply assumed agreement and took over.

If I may, speaking strictly as an observer....

From the look of things, without Elias taking over, it appears the game is over, as no one else has even offered to step in and pick up the GM reins with the latest vacancy.

On 3/25/2018 at 2:52 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

First off, I neither agreed nor disagreed with you taking over. You simply assumed agreement and took over.

Second, The droid was working on removing the tracker while the ship was traveling at speed five, hence the higher difficulty mechanics roll. A second mechanics check ( with boost dice gained from the advantages rolled on the first attempt) would have likely succeeded without requiring the ship to slow down. So no, the intention was to maintain speed five, not slow down. Don’t assume anything.

Third, remember, Yavin base and star destroyers have longer range sensors and comms (Star Destroyers have Long range sensors). The fighters were able to communicate with the base because of the base’s comms range, not the fighters’. You are also ignoring the use of communication relays, which have been established in canon, and in real life use to boost communication ranges. There is also specifically designed long range communication attachment in the rules, although stock TIE fighters can’t benefit from it because they lack hard points. However, a flight commander’s unit might potentially have one.

Fourth, your “interpretation” of the Full Throttle talents can’t be correct for one simple reason. Given that the talents are useable with ships up to silhouette five, and silhouette five ships are limited to only one pilot only maneuver per turn , if said ship had to spend two turns to accelerate up to their “new” top speed the effects of the Supreme Full Throttle talent would end before the ship reached that speed. As such, the ship could never increase its speed by two.

Fifth, the chase rules state that the chase is over if the chased party gets beyond Extreme range. Thus a deception check would be unnecessary by that point. That has nothing to do with when I would need to launch the tracker. As long as I can get beyond Short range from the TIEs, and beyond extreme from the Star Destroyer, the only thing they would be able to track is the tracker. And that is when a deception check would be most beneficial and appropriate.

Sixth, RAW is explicitly clear regarding the planetary range bands. Close range is limited to only “several” kilometers, not several thousand. TIE fighters have Close range sensors. This limits their sensor range to roughly ten to fifteen kilometers, twenty at the most , and a few dozen kilometers if they’re using active mode. That’s it by RAW . You are the one trying to “bend reality”. I am insisting on you following what the rules explicitly say about the range bands. And by RAW, TIE fighter sensors cannot reach orbital distances. They are limited to only about ten to fifteen kilometers or so in passive mode, and a few dozen kilometers in active mode. I already told you if you aren’t going to abide by the RAW don’t GM for me.

You need to recheck your "expectations" and (mis)perceptions about what happened against the recorded history in this thread

I offered to GM after you alienated Mychal'el (after i repeatedly warned you that he was quickly approaching the point of quiting because of your incessant arguing) and then in response (as in you qouted my offer) you started treating me as the GM with this post

On 1/24/2018 at 4:37 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

On 1/24/2018 at 4:37 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

There is also the option of shooting those two TIE fighters out of the sky if I can't lose them, particularly given that I have much longer longer range sensors and weapons than the TIEs. TIE Fighters' sensor Range is Close range, essentially point blank . If, once the tracker is removed, I can get beyond their sensor range, I've lost them. By simply making a beeline in a different direction after exceeding their sensor range, they would have no way to know where I went. And that takes more than simply who has the fastest ship. It's who is the better pilot and can get the most out of his ship. That's why the Chase rules are written the way they are. IF it were simply a matter of who had the faster ship, all chases would be predetermined, which would make for some very poor Role-playing experiences. Also, I'm not sure about the FO TIEs, but the TIE/Ln only has a Speed of 5 as well, so, as long as I can keep making the Full Throttle rolls, I can keep up the same speed.

Before you made this post, I hadn't accepted the mantle of GMing because before then you hadn't accepted me as GM, by treating me as the GM, you tacitly accepted me as GM and the terms I had previously put on it, whether or not you explicitly stated that you accepted me as the GM. Actions speak louder than words Mike.

You're also apparently having trouble with keep track of what actually happened, so let me refresh your memory

On 2/2/2018 at 6:23 PM, EliasWindrider said:

Also, if you're just going to continue to roll mechanics checks until you remove the tracker there's no point in rolling at all. I've already ruled that s3 can/did remove the tracker, it took 2 rounds flying at speed 3, and the 4 ties caught up to you just as s3 came back in the hatch. This is the point in time at which Korath resides. What do you do.

So s3 did in fact remove the tracker while you were traveling at speed 3 for 2 rounds and you need to make the check again and get back up to speed 5.

Regarding full throttle, it's still pretty darn useful for a cunning 5 pilot flying a silhouette 5 ship, especially for someone who has enough ranks in agility and piloting to pull it off reliably, but as I've tried to tell you before, you should have put all your starting xp into attributes and focused on a few attributes with your dedications. But the point is, just because you built Korath poorly that is not a legitimate reason for me to houserule the full throttle talent to make it more beneficial to you/Korath. You need to recheck your assumptions and expectations, and recalibrate them to the fact that you "compromise" built Korath really poorly and he's not really all that good at anything. If you want to rebuild him before continuing this encounter I'll allow it.

Also even if comms worked the way you just claimed they do (and you'll need to show me where that's explicitly stated in the rules if you hope to convince me of it, i.e. using the longer range of two "ships" trying to communicate which doesn't make physical sense), the distance from the rebel base on Yavin 4 to the deathstar would be far beyond what you claimed the limit of extreme range was, in fact it's greater than the range *I* ascribed to extreme range sensors (earth to moon). So, even if you could find that explicit phrase in the book onscreen evidence still supports my take being an underestimate of sensor/comm ranges.

Also if Tie fighter had the "at least speeds" I mentioned previously, and you said were non cannonical because they were too large, it would take 4.5 hours (might have been 5.5 hours, I did the calculation a few weeks ago) for a tie fighter to travel from the earth to the moon. In ANH the moon Yavin IV was beyond the horizon of the Gas Giant Yavin, which even if it was only the size of neptune (which is the smallest gas giant in our solar system, and very icy, with all that implies, I don't want to go into a long physics discussion) That would make the distance between the death star and yavin IV at the time of the attack run, many times the distance between the earth and the moon. And the xwings (speed 5 same as tie fighters) made that trip in an explicit 15 minutes (with time leftover to do the attack run), so in order for ships to not crash into what's infront of them with cannonical speeds close sensor ranges need to be quite a bit larger than you're giving them credit for by on screen evidence.

you get a conflict pass on this post.

You and I have different interpretations of the RAW, I'm the GM so mine is the law. Because you are a player and not the GM, what you insist on has no bearing on what actually happens, so tough luck. Back when you were first trying to get this game off the ground, I do remember warning the other player's about your habit of power tripping when playing Korath (not just as a GM), you insisted that you wouldn't... that's another thing else I was right about.

@EliasWindrider you have be tramps best troll. Congrats!

20 hours ago, killerbeardhawk said:

@EliasWindrider you have be tramps best troll. Congrats!

I'm also probably his best friend. There's an adage that a friend is someone who truly knows you and likes you anyways. We've known each other in real life since either 2003 or 2004. I played my namesake character Elias Windrider in an RCR game that Tramp ran in the 2005 to early 2006 time frame. I lasted 10 marathon sessions before I quit... and the reason was I couldn't play in his game and stay his friend. I was the only player and he GMPC'd Korath as my character's Jedi master, he apparently had others who couldn't stomach him past the first session. The frequent in character verbal berating he justified as good roleplaying of "a tough as nails drill sergeant of a jedi master" was not fun, and that's not the worst of his offenses. It took me years to deal with the emotional trauma from that, no joke, I've gotten past it but I couldn't in good conscience let someone someone sign up for the kind of abuse they'd get as his padawan without warning them first. The point is I know how Tramp behaves when he's playing Korath, because Korath is Tramp's idealized star wars version of himself, with authority and he views "challenges" to Korath's auhority/perfection as personal affronts. I'm pretty certain I know tramp better than anyone else on these forums, but without Tramps biased/double standards in his own favor viewpoint of himself, so it's really not hard for me to predict his bad behavior farely accurately. Being able to call him on that bad behavior before he does it lets me (futilely) try to premptively steer him away from that bad behavior, but when it blows up in his face i remind him i saw it coming a mile away, maybe if we keep at it for another decade he'll eventually based on the mountain of evidence, take my warnings seriously. Yeah, we argue like an old married couple because it's the only way he knows how to communicate. But I guess what makes me his best troll and best friend is I have the patience to deal with him. I mean how many GMs would put up with a player arguing for 8 weeks about why I should allow him to not only attempt but have good odds at succeeding a ridiculously unlikely to succeed action, which beyond being infeasible is pretty inconsequential to the outcome of the story. And why am I putting up with this/not just giving in because it's so inconsequential, well because I'm patient and I don't give into bullies, but I do keep and open mind and twice I've admitted I was wrong about particular aspects of a ruling and was willing to be convinced of that. But in terms of the big picture what he's asking for in general it's pretty unreasonable/ridiculous and I don't do ridiculous in games I GM with exceptions made for the rule of cool. And this just isn't over the top awesom/cool.

I cant wait for the one paragraph of "in character" to follow the pages of rules lawyering. Tramp youre playing the game wrong.

On 3/25/2018 at 9:21 PM, EliasWindrider said:

You need to recheck your "expectations" and (mis)perceptions about what happened against the recorded history in this thread

I offered to GM after you alienated Mychal'el (after i repeatedly warned you that he was quickly approaching the point of quiting because of your incessant arguing) and then in response (as in you qouted my offer) you started treating me as the GM with this post

Before you made this post, I hadn't accepted the mantle of GMing because before then you hadn't accepted me as GM, by treating me as the GM, you tacitly accepted me as GM and the terms I had previously put on it, whether or not you explicitly stated that you accepted me as the GM. Actions speak louder than words Mike.

You're also apparently having trouble with keep track of what actually happened, so let me refresh your memory

So s3 did in fact remove the tracker while you were traveling at speed 3 for 2 rounds and you need to make the check again and get back up to speed 5.

Regarding full throttle, it's still pretty darn useful for a cunning 5 pilot flying a silhouette 5 ship, especially for someone who has enough ranks in agility and piloting to pull it off reliably, but as I've tried to tell you before, you should have put all your starting xp into attributes and focused on a few attributes with your dedications. But the point is, just because you built Korath poorly that is not a legitimate reason for me to houserule the full throttle talent to make it more beneficial to you/Korath. You need to recheck your assumptions and expectations, and recalibrate them to the fact that you "compromise" built Korath really poorly and he's not really all that good at anything. If you want to rebuild him before continuing this encounter I'll allow it.

Also even if comms worked the way you just claimed they do (and you'll need to show me where that's explicitly stated in the rules if you hope to convince me of it, i.e. using the longer range of two "ships" trying to communicate which doesn't make physical sense), the distance from the rebel base on Yavin 4 to the deathstar would be far beyond what you claimed the limit of extreme range was, in fact it's greater than the range *I* ascribed to extreme range sensors (earth to moon). So, even if you could find that explicit phrase in the book onscreen evidence still supports my take being an underestimate of sensor/comm ranges.

Also if Tie fighter had the "at least speeds" I mentioned previously, and you said were non cannonical because they were too large, it would take 4.5 hours (might have been 5.5 hours, I did the calculation a few weeks ago) for a tie fighter to travel from the earth to the moon. In ANH the moon Yavin IV was beyond the horizon of the Gas Giant Yavin, which even if it was only the size of neptune (which is the smallest gas giant in our solar system, and very icy, with all that implies, I don't want to go into a long physics discussion) That would make the distance between the death star and yavin IV at the time of the attack run, many times the distance between the earth and the moon. And the xwings (speed 5 same as tie fighters) made that trip in an explicit 15 minutes (with time leftover to do the attack run), so in order for ships to not crash into what's infront of them with cannonical speeds close sensor ranges need to be quite a bit larger than you're giving them credit for by on screen evidence.

you get a conflict pass on this post.

You and I have different interpretations of the RAW, I'm the GM so mine is the law. Because you are a player and not the GM, what you insist on has no bearing on what actually happens, so tough luck. Back when you were first trying to get this game off the ground, I do remember warning the other player's about your habit of power tripping when playing Korath (not just as a GM), you insisted that you wouldn't... that's another thing else I was right about.

No, they don’t. Here is the other reason why you are wrong regarding the ranges. The weapons themselves use those same ranges. The weapons on TIE fighters and X-Wings weapons are limited to Close range, and we see in canon that those weapons require the fighters to be extremely close to their targets, just like real world fighter planes. They’re limited to Close range dogfighting , and they can’t hit targets thousands of kilometers away. They can only shoot at targets basically within visual range, and that’s only a few kilometers, not thousands of kilometers. They’re limited to only a few kilometers at best. This was by design by GL to achieve the feel of the old WWII movies he based the space battles on. A fighter does not need sensors that extend out much farther than their weapons range. TIE fighters have all Close range weapons, and those weapons can’t hit targets thousands of kilometers away. They are designed to hit targets only a few kilometers away at best.

As for the flight to the Death Star, that’s irrelevant. We don’t see them flying nearly that fast in actual combat. Getting to the Death Star more likely would have been achieved by a micro jump. That easily explains the “overly fast” time to get there. Thus Close range is limited to only a few kilometers by RAW and by Canon, You are wrong!

As for ships’ comms, as I have already pointed out. Comms can easily be extended through relays and those exist in canon and on reality. There are relay towers, relay buoys, relay satellites, even dedicated communications vehicles. All of these extend the range of communications between aircraft (or spacecraft) and their base (or mothership). Thus, a fighter doesn’t necessarily need to have long range comms built in to communicate with their command ship or base. There simply has to be a relay of some sort within range to boost the signal.

8 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, they don’t. Here is the other reason why you are wrong regarding the ranges. The weapons themselves use those same ranges. The weapons on TIE fighters and X-Wings weapons are limited to Close range, and we see in canon that those weapons require the fighters to be extremely close to their targets, just like real world fighter planes. They’re limited to Close range dogfighting , and they can’t hit targets thousands of kilometers away. They can only shoot at targets basically within visual range, and that’s only a few kilometers, not thousands of kilometers. They’re limited to only a few kilometers at best. This was by design by GL to achieve the feel of the old WWII movies he based the space battles on. A fighter does not need sensors that extend out much farther than their weapons range. TIE fighters have all Close range weapons, and those weapons can’t hit targets thousands of kilometers away. They are designed to hit targets only a few kilometers away at best.

As for the flight to the Death Star, that’s irrelevant. We don’t see them flying nearly that fast in actual combat. Getting to the Death Star more likely would have been achieved by a micro jump. That easily explains the “overly fast” time to get there. Thus Close range is limited to only a few kilometers by RAW and by Canon, You are wrong!

As for ships’ comms, as I have already pointed out. Comms can easily be extended through relays and those exist in canon and on reality. There are relay towers, relay buoys, relay satellites, even dedicated communications vehicles. All of these extend the range of communications between aircraft (or spacecraft) and their base (or mothership). Thus, a fighter doesn’t necessarily need to have long range comms built in to communicate with their command ship or base. There simply has to be a relay of some sort within range to boost the signal.

There's something you need to get through your thick head Tramp.

Yes it works the way I say it does even if for no other reason than because i say it works that way.

I don't have to play by your interpretation of the rules, you have to play by mine.

My job as GM is in order of decreasing importance

Rule zero: don't be a ****, for example don't screw over a player, not for no good reason, not at all. But that doesn't mean giving the players everything the ask for or demand or insist on.

Rule 1; provide a sensible interactive universe to your character to inhabit. Here's something you aparently haven't been able to grasp: The GM does not bend reality, he provides reality.

For this game sensible means first and foremost narratively consistent with the onscreen behavior exhibited in the films/other cannon sources. If text in a non cannon book, for example a rule book, isn't consistent with onscreen evidence, it isn't consistent period.

Rule 2: adhere to text in the rule books as long as it's consistent, and resolve any inconsistencies in a sensible manner.

Your job as a PC is to inhabit and interact with and adapt to the universe I provide, it is NOT to argue with the universe when it doesn't conform to your expectations. If I were to break rule 0, and screw you over, I would expect an argument, but I haven't done that. In fact i have rather patiently humored you with explanations I am not required to give for the last 8 weeks while you were arguing with the universe instead of taking your turn. If there had been any other player's left, they would have dropped the game because they got sick of waiting for you to take your turn.

Now I am patient enough to continue to humor you for a little bit longer...

On screen evidence says sensor and comm ranges are substantially greater than weapons ranges, so I have resolved the inconsistency in those rules with a cut between weapons ranges and sensor ranges.

No micro jumps were in ANH, and beyond happening off screen, you can't microjump through a planet (Yavin 4 was beyond the horizon of the planet relative to the death star), not even a gas giant, besides which onscreen evidence has them flying AROUND the planet. Also even if it were a straight line shot, micro jumps are "in system jumps" in terms of scale, you might micro jump between planets but you don't micro jump between a planet and its moon. The distance between yavin 4 and the death star was by my estimation somewhere 3 and 30 times the distance between yavin and yavin 4, so definitely in the range of sublight drives. So somewhere between about 1 million a 10 million kilometers, if extreme comm range were only 10,000 kilometers (which is larger than you were claiming) they would need between 100 and 1000 extreme range relay stations between yavin 4 and the death star for Luke to have communicated with the rebel base, which is ludicrous. You aren't even thinking through the implications of the nonsense your insisting is the way the universe must work. And realistically comms can bend just below the horizon, and at the time Luke was comming the base on yavin 4, the death star had just cleared the horizon, so there was no need for any comm relays, but I suppose you could argue for 1 to get a better view around yavin.

Beyond just comm ranges, in case you switch tactics to insisting that i make the cut between comms and sensors.

The speed of the fighters based on onscreen evidence also REQUIRES sensor ranges in line with what I stated for ships to not crash in normal flight. Otherwise they're nonsensical useless deathtraps that CAN'T function as starships, and onscreen evidence says they DO function as starships, besides which Luke's xwing's sensors were "picking up a whole lot of life down there" while in low orbit above dagobah in ESB. So even if you switched tactics you still don't have a sensible/consistent leg to stand on.

In other words, beyond my personal ruling as GM, the CANNON universe can not, and more importantly onscreen evidence says it DOES NOT work the nonsensical way you are insisting it must.

But while cannon supports what I'm saying (actually cannon says I'm very likely significantly underestimating comm and sensor ranges), I actually don't need to be supported by cannon because the universe works however I say it does because I'm the GM.

To repeat the salient point the Pc's (i.e. your) job is to not argue with me the GM unless I'm screwing you over (and I'm not), and to get on to the business to taking your turn.

So given that Korath inhabits the universe that works the way I said it does, what does Korath do now?

Wrong Elias.

First, you have already screwed me over with your “ruling” that I dropped down to speed three to “allow” the droid to remove the tracker. This is because you have not only denied me player agency by arbitrarily making that call in spite of my stated intentions, it also denies me three full turns of actions and maneuvers I could use to escape the TIEs. Remember, the only thing I had done was use the Full Throttle talents to get up to speed 5, with the droid only making that first attempt to remove the tracker ( which, while unsuccessful, did have Advsntages to spend that I wanted to use to add boost dice to its second try). Tou are not only denying me the second round of speed five I could use to continue to fly at speed and make additional piloting checks to increase the distance between me and my pursuers, you are also robbing me two more rounds I could make piloting checks to maintain said speed as well as put more distance between me and my pursuers. That is robbing me of three full rounds of actions and maneuvers. On top of that, you are also robbing me of the advantages I had already gained over them; basically putting me right back where I started before I made the FULL THROTTLE check in the first place. That is denying me player agency.

Second, you are flat out wrong on the rules regarding sensors and range bands, and there is no contradiction in the rules to “interpret”in that regard. The rules explicitly give distances that each range band covers and they are not what you say they are. To be even more specific, the bottom of page 244 to the top of page 245 says,

Quote

As stated on page 216,Close range on planetary scale picks up where personal scale leaves off. However, the scale is so much bigger that a single person could never use maneuvers to move next to a target that is “close” to him on a planetary scale-the distancr may be up to several kilometers

and take an hour of walking to cover .

That last point is key. Close range in planetary scale takes one hour to walk. An adult human can walk at thee miles per hour. That translates to roughly 4.8 kilometers per hour . based upon that very fact, we can conclude that Close range at planetary scale is roughly 4-6 kilometers or so, even less than I had originally figured. And the rules explicitly state that thousands of kilometers is Long and Extreme range, not Close range. Not only that, but I’m not in space anyway. That means we use Atmospheric ranges anyway, including for sensors. Third, we do not see star fighters ducking it out on screen over thousands of kilometers between them. They fight at extremely close ranges just like the real world fighter planes they are emulating.

Lastly, you are also wrong about the Full Throttle talents. Reread the base Full Throttle talent again.

Quote

The character may push his ship or vehicle past its limits of speed. He may perform the Full Throttle action, attempting a hard Piloting check. With success, the ship’s top speed increases by 1 for a number of rounds equal to Cunning. The ship still cannot perform actions or maneuvers it could not perform normally.

now read Supreme Full Throttle:

Quote

When the character successfully performs Full Throttle, the ship’s top speed increases by two for a number of rounds did equal to Cunning ,

instead of one.

Note the bold text. It is all accomplished as a single action ( or maneuver with the Improved Full Throttle talent). That means that the total increase in speed happens within the same round, not over multiple rounds or actions. It is an immediate result. You are pushing the engines past redline to get immediate additional speed out of the vehicle. You are wrong.

Elias, don’t GM for this. I do not accept your “rulings”. Contrary to what you claim, they are screwing me over, denying me player agency, and directly contradicted by the RAW. Every one of your “rulings” has been done for one purpose: to force me to head directly into orbit and run the gauntlet against that Star Destroyer in order to go to hyperspace. I cannot and will not play under those conditions.

Speaking as an impartial observer, since no one else appears willing to GM, then it looks like

1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

Speaking as an impartial observer, since no one else appears willing to GM, then it looks like

I haven’t asked anyone else yet.

20 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Not really. Considering that if I want this campaign to continue properly, I need to recruit more players anyway.

45 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Wrong Elias.

First, you have already screwed me over with your “ruling” that I dropped down to speed three to “allow” the droid to remove the tracker. This is because you have not only denied me player agency by arbitrarily making that call in spite of my stated intentions, it also denies me three full turns of actions and maneuvers I could use to escape the TIEs. Remember, the only thing I had done was use the Full Throttle talents to get up to speed 5, with the droid only making that first attempt to remove the tracker ( which, while unsuccessful, did have Advsntages to spend that I wanted to use to add boost dice to its second try). Tou are not only denying me the second round of speed five I could use to continue to fly at speed and make additional piloting checks to increase the distance between me and my pursuers, you are also robbing me two more rounds I could make piloting checks to maintain said speed as well as put more distance between me and y pursuers. On top of that, you are also robbing me of the advantages I had already gained over them. That is denying me player agency.

Second, you are flat out wrong on the rules regarding sensors and range bands, and there is no contradiction in the rules to “interpret”. The rules explicitly give distances that each range band covers and they are not what you say they are. To be even more specific, the bottom of page 244 to the top of page 245 says,

That last point is key. Close range in planetary scale takes one hour to walk. An adult human can walk at thee miles per hour. That translates to roughly 4.8 kilometers per hour . based upon that very fact, we can conclude that Close range at planetary scale is roughly 4-6 kilometers or so, even less than I had originally figured. And the rules explicitly state that thousands of kilometers is Long and Extreme range, not Close range. Not only that, but I’m not in space anyway. That means we use Atmospheric ranges anyway, including for sensors. Third, we do not see star fighters ducking it out on screen over thousands of kilometers between them. They fight at extremely close ranges just like the real world fighter planes they are emulating.

Lastly, you are also wrong about the Full Throttle talents. Reread the base Full Throttle talent again.

now read Supreme Full Throttle:

Note the bold text. It is all accomplished as a single action ( or maneuver with the Improved Full Throttle talent). That means that the total increase in speed happens within the same round, not over multiple rounds or actions. It is an immediate result. You are pushing the engines past redline to get immediate additional speed out of the vehicle. You are wrong.

Elias, don’t GM for this. I do not accept your “rulings”. Contrary to what you claim, they are screwing me over, denying me player agency, and directly contradicted by the RAW. I cannot and will not play under those conditions.

Having a droid remove a tracker at speed 5 in atmospher is more than a bit ludicrous, and it is perfectly reasonable to disallow that. Unless you're going to claim not letting a human survive long term in vacuum without a starship or space suit is robbing you of player agency, that's not robbing you of player agency either. And if you are just going to roll roll and roll again until you succeed with no consequence of failure there is no point in rolling at all. But if you really want to try it at speed 5, I'll let you go back in time so you can spend a Destiny point to attempt an impossible check, 3 red 2 purple and 3 black. Despair or 4 net threat means you lose the droid, and probably the tracker with it. If you don't succeed on the impossible check you'll have to drop to speed 3 to real the droid back in.

If you really think I've screwed you over by skipping over that roll then state what detrimental effect on your character you think it had or will have. As far as i can tell you're getting really worked up about letting the imps see your exit vector, but even if they do so what, that's NOT screwing you over, it poses no immediate threat to your character's life or well being, it costs no resources, it does make the plot of the next session more interesting but in an rpg the point is to tell interesting stories, so tell me why you think this is SCREWING YOU OVER, how has your character been harmed by skipping over the roll?

Sensors don't work at shorter distances just because their in atmosphere and ESB shows close range (xwing) sensors DETECTING life on the surface of dagobah from low orbit, and that's exactly what I've ruled they can do because if a rule is inconsistent with onscreen evidence it's an inconsistent rule period because it's inconsistent with star wars and this is the STAR WARS rpg. If we weren't playing stat wars you might have a point

Supreme Full throttle, like regular full throttle says TOP speed, TOP is the relevant part, yeah in increases TOP speed by 2 instead of 1 but increasing TOP speed by 2 in now way implies it increases your speed at all. It seems you can't recognize or you actively choose to ignore the relevant bits of rules when they aren't in your favor.

But if you really want another GM I will turn over the reigns just as soon as we finish this session, i.e. when you jump to hyperspace and roll for/update morality.

Elias, Mychal’el had already ruled it a Daunting (PPPP) Mechanics check, not an Impossible one. So it doesn’t require a destiny point. And given that S3 barely missed the roll (three successses canceled by three failures), it’s not as hard as you claim, particularly for a droid specifically designed forechanical work on starships. Not only that, but given the chances of Threat on the rolls, there are always the possibility of negative or positive consequences on top of success or failure. The droid’s first roll is a perfect example of that (failure with advantage).

And yes, the Full Throttle talents are increasing the actual speed. That’s the whole point of the talents: to push the vehicle’s speed past its normal top speed. And this is done within a single action or maneuver. It does not require spending additional rolls, additional actions or addymaneuvers. It is done as a single action or maneuver.

And no, not after this session is over. Immediately .

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Elias, Mychal’el had already ruled it a Hard Mechanics check. So it doesn’t require a destiny point. Not only that, but given the chances of Threat on the rolls, there are always the possibility of negative or positive consequences on top of success or failure. The droid’s first roll is a perfect example of that (failure with advantage).

No offense to Mychal'el, but he's kind of new to GMing and also let full throttle increase your speed when by RAW it only increases your top speed and that kind of "mistake" should be expected of new GMs (i made my share), that isn't to say Mychal'el was per se wrong in the "hard" difficulty only that we have a difference of opinion about how hard it is. But since Mychal'el isn't the GM now, I am, you shouldn't be appealing to his authority.

1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

No offense to Mychal'el, but he's kind of new to GMing and also let full throttle increase your speed when by RAW it only increases your top speed and that kind of "mistake" should be expected of new GMs (i made my share), that isn't to say Mychal'el was per se wrong in the "hard" difficulty only that we have a difference of opinion about how hard it is. But since Mychal'el isn't the GM now, I am, you shouldn't be appealing to his authority.

I’m not appealing to his authority. I’m telling you you are wrong and I don’t want you as GM.