19 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

That would be a not-too-shabby errata, too. If Passive Sensors was "acquire a lock" or "assign a Calculate Token to your ship" instead of the actions, but with essentially the same text/triggers as now, that'd work fine.

But then how could I outplay my opponent with PS by dealing out a panicked pilot or disabled power regulator?

Would changing it from action to acquire break any current ships? On top of being a nerf to Vader, it'd nerf Redline (no double lock), and fix weird crit interactions.

20 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Personally, I don't think the Silencer should get the Sensor slot. More, it was just an example of a ship where there could be problems if Passive Sensors showed up.

//

That would be a not-too-shabby errata, too. If Passive Sensors was "acquire a lock" or "assign a Calculate Token to your ship" instead of the actions, but with essentially the same text/triggers as now, that'd work fine.

That would fix a tiny edge case, I managed to panicked pilot a passive tempest yesterday and that was pretty feels bad, man.

5 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

Yeah obviously I don't have any meaningful proof to back it up, but it's just a simple "what was already good in HS and went unchanged while everything else got nuked?"

So I don't want to overly nit-pick, because I don't want to make it sound like I don't think CIS isn't very good in hyperspace, but to pretend that pivoting over to an infiltrator is equally as good as the bellyrub feels like a really big assumption.

The only thing anyone has to make that guess is XY's list, and I'd bet that would not hold up in a field more full of 5+ ships at I2+ shooting, who do not care about the Sith's shot whatsoever, and can absolutely kill 2+ vultures before they shoot. That list excelled at punishing low shots-per-turn/shipcount, which I suspect is no longer the case.

Further, I hypothesize that resistance is very good in hyperspace, and not only 5A once the fireball comes out. Probably even right now, but certainly once the fireball comes out.

Then we have Kylo + 4 or 5, which literally just held up in extended. Low sample size, but surprising (and dare I saw, wholesome?).

Rebels still have beef, but it remains to be seen how good it is.

I literally have no idea how to gauge empire, one way or the other.

Basically, we've been half-joking, half-griping that people HATE generics. LVO and the points update seemed indicate that maybe people don't hate generics?

Or maybe they just like winning, and they think spamming generics will help them win? I'm not sure yet...? But man, people seemed to actually have fun, even in extended [...and broadly, seemed to actually enjoy their games more, whether playing with, or against, more ships.]

Edit: clarification of "fun in extended".

10 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

But man, people seemed to actually have fun, even in extended.

give it time

we still 100% need to raise taxes

Just now, Boom Owl said:

give it time

I didn't mean to imply some sort of judgement statement on formats, but rather that as ship count increased, people, broadly, seemed to actually enjoy their games more, whether playing with, or against, more ships.

10 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I didn't mean to imply some sort of judgement statement on formats, but rather that as ship count increased, people, broadly, seemed to actually enjoy their games more, whether playing with, or against, more ships.

I think in general the community badly needs some explanations on how to fight swarms and how much control is available against higher ship counts. Probably necessary to make it possible to raise ace taxes.

34 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

But man, people seemed to actually have fun, even in extended.

28 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

give it time

True, there's always those who find a way to mess up peoples fun.

...as an aside, I skimmed (the dreaded scroll up a page or so, woops, bad idea) and there was all this salt... err discussion.

Vader bad?

4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

So I don't want to overly nit-pick, because I don't want to make it sound like I don't think CIS isn't very good in hyperspace, but to pretend that pivoting over to an infiltrator is equally as good as the bellyrub feels like a really big assumption.

The only thing anyone has to make that guess is XY's list, and I'd bet that would not hold up in a field more full of 5+ ships at I2+ shooting, who do not care about the Sith's shot whatsoever, and can absolutely kill 2+ vultures before they shoot. That list excelled at punishing low shots-per-turn/shipcount, which I suspect is no longer the case.

Further, I hypothesize that resistance is very good in hyperspace, and not only 5A once the fireball comes out. Probably even right now, but certainly once the fireball comes out.

Then we have Kylo + 4 or 5, which literally just held up in extended. Low sample size, but surprising (and dare I saw, wholesome?).

Rebels still have beef, but it remains to be seen how good it is.

I literally have no idea how to gauge empire, one way or the other.

I agree with everything except one thing in this post. CIS will be just fine, but thats taking into account a format without some of the typical power options.

I played 4A+Fireball this last weekend in a local tournament. Fireball was not the right fit to go with 4 A wings, but it has a lot more potential than I thought. Resistance is going to be very solid in the upcoming Hyperspace format.

Kylo as wholesome is not what I thought the definition of wholesome is in X-Wing. Something something force ace something. But yes, FO has a pretty good chance at being very good as well, despite my initial skepticism.

Did anyone play DT's World's list at LVO? Seems strange not to.

Empire losing it's TIE Swarm or Triple Aces identity is tough on it. Death Troopers might be the best upgrade in the game in Hyperspace though, if you can find a place to fit it.

10 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

But man, people seemed to actually have fun, even in extended.

sigh.

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I didn't mean to imply some sort of judgement statement on formats, but rather that as ship count increased, people, broadly, seemed to actually enjoy their games more, whether playing with, or against, more ships.

ok we are cool

I have edited my original "fun in extended" quote to fully clarify the aspect that people just seemed to have fun as ship count went up, and the ship count went WAY up even in extended, where none of us pretended a big ship count increase (high aces!).

8 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I have edited my original "fun in extended" quote to fully clarify the aspect that people just seemed to have fun as ship count went up, and the ship count went WAY up even in extended, where none of us pretended a big ship count increase (high aces!).

Its almost like ace players can enjoy having NPE NPC characters to bully.

The whole "Kylo is wholesome" illusion has to be the result of incorporating force, NPE, OP slots and stats, and an OP ship ability, but only to a certain degree in each area. He's not as OP as more egregious offenders, but he's up there with muggle pilots like Whisper, Boba, or the underexplored Rex.

Sure, he's not a 3 force user, but 2 is not insignificant, especially with a ship with a high native action efficiency. ISYTDS gets assigned about once a game at most by token-savvy players, but it's still nasty. 6 HP no native evade isn't quite a TIE/D, but it's not insignificant for a small base, especially with force. Autothrusters aren't absolute cheese like Stygium, but they're pretty cheesy. If you don't mind upping it as a point fortress, the tech slot (especially optics with force for a subtle straight upgrade to passive sensors in applicability and adaptability) can low key try to break core ideas of the game. You can Redline but an Interceptor with Torps, if you so desire. : /

Not quite the worse of pains, but a jackass of all trades, like that one Radar Tech and some Intern.

28 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

The whole "Kylo is wholesome" illusion has to be the result of incorporating force, NPE, OP slots and stats, and an OP ship ability, but only to a certain degree in each area. He's not as OP as more egregious offenders, but he's up there with muggle pilots like Whisper, Boba, or the underexplored Rex.

Sure, he's not a 3 force user, but 2 is not insignificant, especially with a ship with a high native action efficiency. ISYTDS gets assigned about once a game at most by token-savvy players, but it's still nasty. 6 HP no native evade isn't quite a TIE/D, but it's not insignificant for a small base, especially with force. Autothrusters aren't absolute cheese like Stygium, but they're pretty cheesy. If you don't mind upping it as a point fortress, the tech slot (especially optics with force for a subtle straight upgrade to passive sensors in applicability and adaptability) can low key try to break core ideas of the game. You can Redline but an Interceptor with Torps, if you so desire. : /

Not quite the worse of pains, but a jackass of all trades, like that one Radar Tech and some Intern.

Some of it, I believe, is a contrast to what he could have been.

Imagine Kylo as an Init 6 with 3 force. Having him be "only" Init 5 and "only" 2 force was a good plan.

Whether or not he's wholesome, I think a faction as a whole gets closer to that goal when the best ace is Init 5, and the Init 6 pieces are a bit more niche.

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

Some of it, I believe, is a contrast to what he could have been.

Imagine Kylo as an Init 6 with 3 force. Having him be "only" Init 5 and "only" 2 force was a good plan.

Whether or not he's wholesome, I think a faction as a whole gets closer to that goal when the best ace is Init 5, and the Init 6 pieces are a bit more niche.

I mean kylo + something like scorch + 2 SFs is literally not the world I thought I'd see a kylo list. To me, relatively, that's "wholesome".

That does not make kylo, himself, "wholesome", but that's about as wholesome a kylo list as anyone has probably seen, and faaaar cry from the stuff people were TRYING to do, which is combo with SNR/precog and/or afterburners QD, or the sadly anticipated holo/vonreg/holo triple ace.

If people want to play four-to-five ship kylo that is primarily generics or low initiatives... that's still a far better universe to live in.

5 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

If people want to play four-to-five ship kylo that is primarily generics or low initiatives... that's still a far better universe to live in.

I check every day to make sure precog and super natural still dont exist. Just to be sure.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

I check every day to make sure precog and super natural still dont exist. Just to be sure.

Correctly.

27 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

That does not make kylo, himself, "wholesome"

^ This

17 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Just poking a bit in hopes that ATC will gain the ability to display cut performance by faction as a separate column.

I believe what you're looking for is already there - try searching pilots for "republic", for example

8 hours ago, gennataos said:

Despite the "oh, extended, yuk" of LVO, I want to point something out...

The way Paul played that swarm? Not just how well he did with it (he's been doing great with CIS for a while), but the speed with which he played it, particularly in the top 4 game, should be commended. He played crisply throughout, but also purposefully sped up his pace to give his opponent a chance. Maybe a little faster than necessary?...but still, that's some mf'in sportsmanship. Also, I generally have loathed CIS since their release, but watching Paul play has actually made me consider it (but probably not).

@Tlfj200 - Having you on that final was really entertaining. Paul/Zach Krayt tape?

Having been bullied twice by Paul in two days, can confirm that despite having 16 ships on the table there wasn't anything approaching time concerns. Fun games, cool guy, would recommend.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

I check every day to make sure precog and super natural still dont exist. Just to be sure.

Don't worry, it's still very usuable in extended. With higher ship counts, people over commit to the kill box, letting him yeet away.

27 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I believe what you're looking for is already there - try searching pilots for "republic", for example

Not exactly, and I did take a look. I was hoping for a more general overall average per Faction performance in Cut rather than the per pilot breakdown that is currently available.

The wholesomeness of Kylo, if it exists at all, is only in relation to regen Jedi. "Not Obiwan" should not be the litmus for wholesome.

4 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

So I don't want to overly nit-pick, because I don't want to make it sound like I don't think CIS isn't very good in hyperspace, but to pretend that pivoting over to an infiltrator is equally as good as the bellyrub feels like a really big assumption.

The only thing anyone has to make that guess is XY's list, and I'd bet that would not hold up in a field more full of 5+ ships at I2+ shooting, who do not care about the Sith's shot whatsoever, and can absolutely kill 2+ vultures before they shoot. That list excelled at punishing low shots-per-turn/shipcount, which I suspect is no longer the case.

Can confirm that choosing obstacles and moving O-66 with the swarm is different, weird and/or awkward. Bellyrubs were EZ mode to keep screened, but Infiltrators are another beast that require a very adjusted place forces that messes with resetting the Vulture gunline to sweep into the board and/or susceptible to getting jumped on early by fast ships if O-66 isn't placed correctly. Not saying it can't be done, just not a lot of flexibility and probably has me looking to test out DBS32C a bit more.

Observations after a massive sample size (read: 2 games) of Kylo + 4 Proud Tradition Omega FOs:

• Sometimes you get a lot of proud uses, sometimes you just don't/can't (e.g. you're against a big swarm and the board is sufficiently clogged to make your reds non-viable).
• Neither of my opponents has flipped a Tradition on me once. I think it's an annoying trigger for opponents to remember/keep track of, and also some ships are just not interested in doing so (e.g. Academy Pilots who want to save their focus to attack).
• For some reason I just watched a four minute video of the song Tradition from Fiddler on the Roof, so thanks for that, X-Wing.
• 4 FOs really struggle to get much done, and I'm not sure if in either game I played, I wouldn't have been better off with Optics Zeta FOs. If we expand this to extended, I also think I might just like Crack Omegas better. In my game against Academies, Fanatical would have been much better as well, but that might be a niche case.

This is all to say that more testing is probably required, but I'm interested to hear what other real-life non-theorycrafting experiences have been like so far with Proud Tradition?

EDIT: I watched the video again. This song is a banger.

27 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

Observations after a massive sample size (read: 2 games) of Kylo + 4 Proud Tradition Omega FOs:

• Sometimes you get a lot of proud uses, sometimes you just don't/can't (e.g. you're against a big swarm and the board is sufficiently clogged to make your reds non-viable).
• Neither of my opponents has flipped a Tradition on me once. I think it's an annoying trigger for opponents to remember/keep track of, and also some ships are just not interested in doing so (e.g. Academy Pilots who want to save their focus to attack).
• For some reason I just watched a four minute video of the song Tradition from Fiddler on the Roof, so thanks for that, X-Wing.
• 4 FOs really struggle to get much done, and I'm not sure if in either game I played, I wouldn't have been better off with Optics Zeta FOs. If we expand this to extended, I also think I might just like Crack Omegas better. In my game against Academies, Fanatical would have been much better as well, but that might be a niche case.

This is all to say that more testing is probably required, but I'm interested to hear what other real-life non-theorycrafting experiences have been like so far with Proud Tradition?

EDIT: I watched the video again. This song is a banger.

Having played Kylo + 4 FOs for a long time pre point change all I can say is I eventually came to two very specific conclusions.

I either needed extra punch from crackshot specifically to keep up with a high volume of token stacks and make the most of the few modded shots FOs work so very hard for.

Or I swapped things around to turn the FOs into more SFs for more shots and focus rear arc and less necessity to think. This was the real answer. Rear arcs are good. Forward arcs without tricks are bad.

PT is a middle ground, lets Kylo have a little bid, allows better time on target, but does not punch the way crack does unless you stick near r1 over consecutive turns. Without crack you are often not rewarded for the blocks/nets that are so key to making them function against common things. Fanatical was never the answer and still isnt. I have found PT to be a valid alternative but I am always looking for ways to get a 3 dice gun like scorch/longshot, and rivas into lists to keep the offensive spikes available.

End of the day Kylo + 4 FO is all about Kylo. All the FOs need to do is be semi durable, control a bit of the board, and do a bit of damage.

Remains to be seen if the same conclusion pre pts that SFs are just flat out better than everything besides the Epsilon holds up. PT makes that conclusion slightly less obvious for the low/mid 30s FOs than it was.

I know Proud Trad Omegas are the most efficient generic TIE fighters one can ask for, but how are Silencers (other than Avenger) + Epsilons? You can fit 2 FOTP (both Fanatic Optics) + 3 Epsilons, Super Kylo + 4 Epsilons, or Precog Kylo + Scorch + Rivas + 2 Epsilons + 4 pts to flavor. I know none of these have proven themselves and that straight up lean Kylo + a lot of friends/cluster of optic SF's/mix is perhaps the strongest way to go, but if we're talking extended, demoting 3 proud bois to Rivas and 2 Epsilons in order to upgrade 1 to Scorch and give Kylo Precog seems interesting