So before we had the Krayts suggesting Wedge was perhaps overrated being interpreted as "Wedge is bad." Is that now just being replaced with the Krayts suggesting the value of the Phantom's decloak being interpreted as "Phantoms are bad"?

Generic T-65's seem fine. Maybe even good in the right lists. But they're a heck of a lot better when they also can often start the turn in up to three different places, decide to barely advance up the board at will, regen when they get a little cooked, and add two more green dice on their regen turn. Coming in at a minimum of Initiative 3 (ie higher than your typical ship's initiatives, excluding the more premium chassis of the world) doesn't hurt either.

It's not crazy to suggest that the Phantom's ability is Comm Relay, token-wise, but I hope people aren't taking what @Brunas et al are saying to mean that Phantoms aren't crazy and still pretty much undercosted. Imdaars are (still) a steal.

20 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

So before we had the Krayts suggesting Wedge was perhaps overrated being interpreted as "Wedge is bad." Is that now just being replaced with the Krayts suggesting the value of the Phantom's decloak being interpreted as "Phantoms are bad"?

Generic T-65's seem fine. Maybe even good in the right lists. But they're a heck of a lot better when they also can often start the turn in up to three different places, decide to barely advance up the board at will, regen when they get a little cooked, and add two more green dice on their regen turn. Coming in at a minimum of Initiative 3 (ie higher than your typical ship's initiatives, excluding the more premium chassis of the world) doesn't hurt either.

It's not crazy to suggest that the Phantom's ability is Comm Relay, token-wise, but I hope people aren't taking what @Brunas et al are saying to mean that Phantoms aren't crazy and still pretty much undercosted. Imdaars are (still) a steal.

There are words besides “good”, “bad”, and “broken” available to describe ships. Phantoms might be reasonably balanced for Extendeds power level now. Same with Beef in hyperspace. (Not you Tie Swarm).

Might be a way to somehow get away from the extremes used to discuss basically everything. Its helpful to a point but quickly becomes kinda arbitrary. Not sure what the better alternative is. It might be about discussing everything in terms of how it approaches archetype matchups...but thats time consuming. Detailed explanation of in game and pre game counter play to I guess.

19 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

There are words besides “good”, “bad”, and “broken” available to describe ships. Phantoms might be reasonably balanced for Extendeds power level now. Same with Beef in hyperspace. (Not you Tie Swarm).

We need to somehow get away from the meaningless extremes used to discuss basically everything. Not sure how.

Absolutely. That's why I used "undercosted" instead of "good", "bad", or "broken". Any ship can be good, bad, or broken at the right (or wrong) price.

We could also use "better than", as in "The Imdaar Test Pilot is better for most purposes than other generic options at or around its price point" because that too is still probably true after that hefty 1 point increase. It's not wrong to use extreme terminology when you're conversing about ships that are at the extremes.

Also not suggesting a super reductionist approach to discussing ship quality. Ultimately, identifying and exploiting undercosted ships isn't the only component of successful listbuilding... but I would argue that outside of combowing stuff like Handbrake Han, it is the most important one.

EDIT: lol wait I see that I did use "good" in my second paragraph, well whatever I stand by my other points

On 7/3/2019 at 2:20 PM, Brunas said:

I don't think action efficiency/economy is a useful metric for anything.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/8/28/flight-academy-getting-more-for-less/

teehee

2 hours ago, jagsba said:

Arcs at 42 pretty stronk too.

Blair made an interesting point once. He likes b wings but will only put a couple in a list. He throws x wings in there because the dial and boost gives it a bit more flexibility than the b wings have.

I think the speed of the Xwing is hard to quantify vs. a bwing.

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/8/28/flight-academy-getting-more-for-less/

teehee

this made sense when "Upgrades like Lone Wolf , Predator , and Fire-Control System can boost the action economy of any pilot with the matching upgrade slot, and when you're building a list, inserting these upgrades is almost always a reasonable choice." any of those upgrades or upgrades like them exited. "Action Economy" used to be the words we used for "autoinclude upgrade".

2 hours ago, DoubleDown11 said:

It's not crazy to suggest that the Phantom's ability is Comm Relay, token-wise, but I hope people aren't taking what @Brunas et al are saying to mean that Phantoms aren't crazy and still pretty much undercosted. Imdaars are (still) a steal.

I'd hope not. The "decloak, evade, recloak, regular action != a phantom taking 4 actions" argument doesn't stop "phantoms are totally undercosted" from being true, which looking at the competition, looks like they still are. Who would ever take a generic B/X/SF/ARC over a phantom? They're still the same price...

33 minutes ago, Brunas said:

this made sense when "Upgrades like Lone Wolf , Predator , and Fire-Control System can boost the action economy of any pilot with the matching upgrade slot, and when you're building a list, inserting these upgrades is almost always a reasonable choice." any of those upgrades or upgrades like them exited. "Action Economy" used to be the words we used for "autoinclude upgrade".

How dare you take my partially out of context joke post and attempt to apply a reasonable defense. It’s like I don’t even know this thread anymore.

Discovered a new way to prevent me playing Rebels for a while. Flood the basement. My favourite Rebel cards and cardboard and dials were floating inside a plastic baggy... that leaked. Poor Luke. Right on the money with GenCon short weeks away. Yay for the annual disaster.

Bwings are good, right? I haven’t touched those dials much...

59 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Who would ever take a generic B/X/SF/ARC over a phantom? They're still the same price...

Seriously. I spent the last two months of pre-adjustment leaving my precious Imdaars aside because the only thing I was certain about was that there was no way they'd leave them at their current price...

13 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Discovered a new way to prevent me playing Rebels for a while. Flood the basement.

That's brutal. Happened to me year before last, while I was away at an X-Wing tournament in fact. The week before, my board game collection's shelving collapsed, so for exactly one week it was sitting on the floor until we could get to IKEA. Naturally, that was the week the basement flooded.

On the bright side, all I lost from X-Wing was a Firespray dial, and Customer Service generously sent me a replacement dial inside of a month.

Hope you didn't lose anything irreplacable.

Random separate question, but why doesnt Lone Wolf see more use? Seems to solve a ton of problems early and end game, less so mid game. Hugely helpful on most aces, and pushes ship durability up signifcantly compared to hull or shield upgrades.

It functions like a Force Charge and its only 5 pts. I try to use it in most 3 ship lists I build but rarely see it on anything but Stealth Soontir.

10 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

Hope you didn't lose anything irreplacable.

Just my sanity.

Lost some WEG sourcebooks I think. That box took a lot of water. Xwing stuff it was just my backpack with frequent used stuff, and everything was bagged... my Rebels and just noticed my CIS have both been wrecked. Dials and bases are delaminating. One Of Jim’s helmet series Luke is wrecked.

Most of the important stuff was elevated in case of flooding though so really it’s just home stuff. Carpets, walls... you know...

9 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Random separate question, but why doesnt Lone Wolf see more use? Seems to solve a ton of problems early and end game, less so mid game. Hugely helpful on most aces, and pushes ship durability up signifcantly compared to hull or shield upgrades.

It functions like a Force Charge and its only 5 pts. I try to use it in most 3 ship lists I build but rarely see it on anything but Stealth Soontir.

I spent a couple weeks trying to make this work on all sorts of lists after it came up in conversation in this thread something like 200 pages ago (I think it was @GreenDragoon who was discussing it primarily but I'm quite likely wrong), back when we are all so much more young and innocent.

In 3+ ship lists, I just find the range restriction is nailing me at inopportune times. Doesn't help that a fair amount of the 3+ lists I look at have either ships that have abilities that want to be near other ships (even just for Coordinate), and/or I'm bringing ships that are larger than small base and therefore that much more likely to be near a buddy. Just find myself getting into situations where I'm either not getting any use out of the talent, or I'm flying other ships suboptimally because I'm being greedy and trying to keep them away from my Lone Wolf.

In lists where none of those things apply, I like it a lot. Goes especially well with Force-user crew. Lone Wolf plus Fifth Brother is an expensive but nice combo for a few Imp ships, for instance. I don't know what the number of uses per game is before it has earned its points but it's probably not terribly high? Say three, give or take?

29 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

I spent a couple weeks trying to make this work on all sorts of lists after it came up in conversation in this thread something like 200 pages ago (I think it was @GreenDragoon who was discussing it primarily but I'm quite likely wrong), back when we are all so much more young and innocent.

In 3+ ship lists, I just find the range restriction is nailing me at inopportune times. Doesn't help that a fair amount of the 3+ lists I look at have either ships that have abilities that want to be near other ships (even just for Coordinate), and/or I'm bringing ships that are larger than small base and therefore that much more likely to be near a buddy. Just find myself getting into situations where I'm either not getting any use out of the talent, or I'm flying other ships suboptimally because I'm being greedy and trying to keep them away from my Lone Wolf.

In lists where none of those things apply, I like it a lot. Goes especially well with Force-user crew. Lone Wolf plus Fifth Brother is an expensive but nice combo for a few Imp ships, for instance. I don't know what the number of uses per game is before it has earned its points but it's probably not terribly high? Say three, give or take?

So thats the interesting part to me.

If lone wolf works on the initial engage and becomes relevant again end game or on the 3rd engage isnt it insane value?

When I run it typically procs at least twice which i consider 100% worth it. If its more than that the ships probably in the end game causing serious problems for my opponent.

There some mechanics which players seem to put arbirtary expectations of every turn use on in order to be considered. This seems like one of them.

I also might be entirely wrong, it doenst get used much and theres probably a good reason for that im ignoring due to preference for the card and the playstyle it encourages (separating threats).

I use it fully expecting and anticipating that i wont be r3 of all my ships all game. Using lone wolf x number of times isnt my win condition basically.

Similar less difficult to use card is m9g8. Works on both offense and defense. Seems like that is intended to be going on Resistance Transports?

43 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Random separate question, but why doesnt Lone Wolf see more use? Seems to solve a ton of problems early and end game, less so mid game. Hugely helpful on most aces, and pushes ship durability up signifcantly compared to hull or shield upgrades.

It functions like a Force Charge and its only 5 pts. I try to use it in most 3 ship lists I build but rarely see it on anything but Stealth Soontir.

@Biophysical seems to seek out LW list building opportunities. I should probably do the same with Poe, but I’m usually point starved in those lists.

Hmm

17 minutes ago, gennataos said:

@Biophysical seems to seek out LW list building opportunities. I should probably do the same with Poe, but I’m usually point starved in those lists.

Hmm

If im running r4 i always try to have lone wolf on poe if pts allow. With BB8 it becomes less easy to fit but probably even more valuable since your alrdy investing so many pts with Primed Black One and you so badly want to protect them without regen.

Part of the reason Lone Wolf genrally might not be seeing use is that separating your ships for the initial round of combat is sometimes incorrect. But even then you can just choose to ignore lone wolf in the early game if theres a legit reason to stay close.

Lone Wolf, Afterburners, Prockets, HLC, and Adv Proton Torps are constant little projects of mine. I want them to work because I find them mechanically interesting for gameplay. For the most part they have huge bonuses that require some in game skill to get full value. Thats how I wish all upgrades worked. Highly restrictive with narrow and constrained use conditions for any significant game impacting pay off. This is also why I cant stand the way force charges work. Paying points for something useful is the least costly and most lazy constraint. Managing resources could be that constraint but they return every round. You pay the points and dont have to do anything at all to get 1 charge per turn.

50 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

There some mechanics which players seem to put arbirtary expectations of every turn use on in order to be considered. This seems like one of them.

lol So I searched the thread history, the discussion on Lone Wolf I was thinking about was back in January, and it was in fact you who was talking about it.

I don't think you're wrong though. I do think there's a number of times it has to be used to be worth its weight, and that number is possibly different from one ship to another (but I expect it's +/- 2.5 in general), but I don't think you need to be using it every turn or anything.

I wouldn't use it if it was competing with another card that could be providing similar value more consistently. Previously that was Juke (on Phantoms and Defenders, anyway) but it possibly isn't anymore in general. It might generally be a better option now, especially on more valuable/expensive ships or ships you want to make better in the end game (or less bad). I probably don't consider it quite as often as I should in listbuilding, though.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Random separate question, but why doesnt Lone Wolf see more use? Seems to solve a ton of problems early and end game, less so mid game. Hugely helpful on most aces, and pushes ship durability up signifcantly compared to hull or shield upgrades.

It functions like a Force Charge and its only 5 pts. I try to use it in most 3 ship lists I build but rarely see it on anything but Stealth Soontir.

A Timmy here who uses Lone Wolf very extensively in casual but flies more or less the same things in competitive:

It's a force charge that can sometimes reroll a blank into a blank. I mean, it is indeed a very good upgrade, but ever since it and juke bumped up to 5, I used it only on 2 ship builds like Kylo and Quickdraw (and even then, I learned to love fanatical fcs Quickdraw and began to prefer that variant). Is it still undercosted? Possibly. But I held little interest for it because I wanted my Jukers to fly more naturally (i.e., aggressive and planning strafing routes before any other consideration). That and being mid-tier myself, I went down the rabbit hole of composure and afterburners. But now that the 2 Empire I5 Jukers have only 48 pt to dabble with in terms of sidekicks [were they to take the 7pt juke] (and yeah, passive torp boats are great but even at r3 obstructed they are really hoping that they are fortunate enough to engage), I began to look into other things, including Lone Wolf i.e., for someone distracted by flashy moving pieces, it wasn't until those pieces were too expensive/variance dependent did I return to the less-exciting Lone Wolf. The fun part at least is that Rexler's talent slot is rather open, even if Juke might be the best to fill it up. After all is said and done, Lone Wolf isn't flashy like spamming juke and won't give a squad a specialist nastiness to it. Rather, it enhances the general effectiveness of one of your pieces so it can function better as a generalist.

Grand Inquisitor (52)
Hate (3)

Ship total: 55 Half Points: 28 Threshold: 2 [Yeah, I put Hate on a 3 agi 4 health ship. Fight me. Because even taking an evade and using your force, you are expected to take some damage from double modded aces. And when Anankin does eat a shield off you, now you recharged your force to use for your ability and mods]

Rexler Brath (81)
Lone Wolf (5)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)

Ship total: 90 Half Points: 45 Threshold: 4 [No more double juking means Rex has to step up his game. 3 dice focus juke is weak without the other 3 dice focus juke, so he'll join his wingmates in double modding dice. That and his ability breaks HLC and despite that his price keeps dropping for some reason! And this is a meta where bullseyes are becoming more trivial to line up without even repositioning...]

Soontir Fel (53)
Predator (2)

Ship total: 55 Half Points: 28 Threshold: 2 [No bid. Chicken out if there's another I6, I guess, lol.]

If Rex takes Outmaneuver, Inky loses Hate to give Soontir the Lone Wolf. If Rex is kitted out with Marksmanship Autoblaster (a fun combo that can drive opponents up the wall but can be rendered less effective against many things despite Autoblaster caring only about forward arc and not other arcs), then Soontir takes Lone Wolf. Why the preference for higher aggression Lone Wolf than defensive then? Because it has a whopping 3/8 of getting you another green blank whereas only 1/4 for the red blank. Also, now that gas clouds and their excellent design are in the game (fight me, variance-glutton mother****ers), in >90% of the times that a snipe gets me good, I know when and where to blame myself. If you're mobile enough, gas clouds are effectively an evade token on top of a stealth device (Poe, Fenn, and Kylo could not agree more. Vader wish that he could, but he's often blasting through the clouds).

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

I want them to work because I find them mechanically interesting for gameplay. For the most part they have huge bonuses that require some in game skill to get full value. Thats how I wish all upgrades worked. Highly restrictive with narrow and constrained use conditions for any significant game impacting pay off.

This is also why I cant stand the way force charges work. Paying points for something useful is the least costly and most lazy constraint. Managing resources could be that constraint but they return every round. You pay the points and dont have to do anything at all to get 1 charge per turn.

I agree

I agree

5 hours ago, LagJanson said:

Discovered a new way to prevent me playing Rebels for a while. Flood the basement. My favourite Rebel cards and cardboard and dials were floating inside a plastic baggy... that leaked. Poor Luke. Right on the money with GenCon short weeks away. Yay for the annual disaster.

Bwings are good, right? I haven’t touched those dials much...

Take some photos and contact FFG customer service. I've heard about people getting replacement cardboard after fire or even burglary, so I believe they would try to help you.

So I took 3 arcs and Obi Wan to a game night last night and really struggled. What's the best way to play the arcs, just drive up and joust things? Obi Wan didn't get touched in any games but at 62 points with Sense R2 CLT he's no threat to anyone.

I agree.

(81) Rexler Brath [TIE/D Defender]
(5) Lone Wolf
Points: 86

(51) "Echo" [TIE/ph Phantom]
(6) Outmaneuver
(9) Fifth Brother
Points: 66

(35) Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1]
(8) Supernatural Reflexes
(5) Cluster Missiles
Points: 48

Total points: 200

One fast flanker/R1 menace/horrible distraction. One lethal sniper. One motherf***ing tank.

Lone Wolf should proc a lot.

Worked reasonably well with Predator on Rex but he had a tendency to just run around, not doing much and fortressing points. Which is boring, prone to error and not good at scoring points.

I'd like HLC but there's no room to move.

On 7/5/2019 at 1:55 AM, Pink_Viking said:

Take some photos and contact FFG customer service. I've heard about people getting replacement cardboard after fire or even burglary, so I believe they would try to help you.

Forum works again!

Yes, on it. FFG was good to me back when I lost a TIE fighter dial

Annnnnnndddd, we're back.

🕺 WB, been a dull two days.

Wow turns out I had no life.