9 hours ago, DoubleDown11 said:

Observations after a massive sample size (read: 2 games) of Kylo + 4 Proud Tradition Omega FOs:

• Sometimes you get a lot of proud uses, sometimes you just don't/can't (e.g. you're against a big swarm and the board is sufficiently clogged to make your reds non-viable).
• Neither of my opponents has flipped a Tradition on me once. I think it's an annoying trigger for opponents to remember/keep track of, and also some ships are just not interested in doing so (e.g. Academy Pilots who want to save their focus to attack).
• For some reason I just watched a four minute video of the song Tradition from Fiddler on the Roof, so thanks for that, X-Wing.
• 4 FOs really struggle to get much done, and I'm not sure if in either game I played, I wouldn't have been better off with Optics Zeta FOs. If we expand this to extended, I also think I might just like Crack Omegas better. In my game against Academies, Fanatical would have been much better as well, but that might be a niche case.

This is all to say that more testing is probably required, but I'm interested to hear what other real-life non-theorycrafting experiences have been like so far with Proud Tradition?

EDIT: I watched the video again. This song is a banger.

I'm with @Boom Owlin that I think FOs need Crack Shot to really pull their weight as offense generators. As that's extended only, I think the main role of FOs is filler, either as Epsilons where they're super cheap or Proud Tradition where at least they get a lot of shots with at least some mods. The key, I think, is to keep them filler, regardless of how you equip them. They're there to block, provide opportunistic 3 dice shots at close range, and occasionally slip damage through if the opponent has spent all their resources avoiding better shots. Proud Tradition helps them be better filler, but I don't think it helps them carry a game against the best ships in Hyper. Like you, this opinion is based on limited experience.

Edit: that is a great song

i think everyone feels they have no damage and can't do damage without crackshot... but that's basically all of hyperspace.

Welcome to hyperspace.

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

i think everyone feels they have no damage and can't do damage without crackshot... but that's basically all of hyperspace.

Welcome to hyperspace.

Who is left with multiple mods on defense? The new RZ-2? Ships next to jake? Rebel Han, I guess?

Agility in general is going to have higher variance, so reliable offense should be an acceptable alternative to spike damage.

Yeah I'm of the same mind. Both of my games were against heavily 3-agi and/or Force-supported defense, which is essentially the worst case scenario for these little 2-die attackers anyway, but realistically, that's probably a day in the life of current Hyperspace.

30 points is steep for filler though, especially with the current ship pricing overall. If I Were A Rich Man (points-wise) I'd drop them right in, but otherwise It's hard to justify 30 point Proud Omegas when 31 point Alpha Squadrons are flying around the meta. Unless I'm expecting a lot of things that my i3 focus'd Omega can frequently kill out of the box (basically Vultures), I think I'd rather just save the 5 points and have the i1 Epsilon for 25 or even Rivas for 27. If I have exactly 30 points left over in an FO and a real passion for spending every last one of them, I'm possibly even better off plugging Null in (list dependent of course).

So ultimately, so far I'm feeling that it's an upgrade that I don't want to put on my expensive ships because it enables my opponent to nerf them, but I don't want to put it on my cheap ships because it isn't doing quite enough to justify the premium pricing. Other than that (and "don't put it on Scorch unless you hate yourself"), I'm not sure what the takeaways are for Proud Tradition right now.

Obviously I'll be eating my words when it shows up in a top cut at the next major event and all of X Wing Reddit proclaims that they knew it was great and have been using it for months.

11 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

i think everyone feels they have no damage and can't do damage without crackshot... but that's basically all of hyperspace.

Welcome to hyperspace.

In the list I was running (Kylo+4FO), I wouldn't say I felt I had no damage, it was just very inconsistent against 3-agility (I know, I know, welcome to X-Wing). This is almost tolerable, but it loses races against 3-agi ships in greater numbers, and that's significantly less tolerable. My four 30-point TIE/fo's are getting snowballed by my opponent's six 22-point Academy Pilots. Basically it's just Kylo doing a bunch of work while the TIE/fo's try in vain to hold the line, and that's exactly how my games went, but both times I'd hemmorhaged too many TIE/fo points in the Filler Wars to be on the winning side at the end.

I totally agree that eac and every ship in a list does not have to output 4 hit results every turn to be viable, but at 30 points I'm not quite sure Proud FO's are doing quite enough.

3 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

Obviously I'll be eating my words when it shows up in a top cut at the next major event and all of X Wing Reddit proclaims that they knew it was great and have been using it for months.

Good thing I don't go on Reddit and I have actually been using Proud FOs since points dropped so I'll be 100% validated in all my opinions and proud of my bois 😎 (but seriously, I'm scared of Boba though)

As far as I am concerned crackshot doesnt exist so I dont miss it. I am still just trying to sort out if Epsilons/SFs remain out right better than Low/Mid 30s Tie FOs available to Kylo lists. Similar to the comparisons between Colossus/RZ2As and Low/Mid 30s Fireballs.

Example of a list I think is fine and would work ok for me at a hyperspace tournament. Without crack I feel ok with switching to prioritizing PT and 3 dice but it might still just be better with more SFs:

• Kylo
• Scorch
• Longshot ( PT )
• Omega Ace ( PT )
• Rivas

Mostly though I currently prefer to just build Rebel FO Lists since FFG lets me:

• Kylo LeFrance Ep Ep Ep
• Holo/Vonreg LeFrance Scorch Longshot Rivas

For what it's worth, Kylo/2 SF Gunner Zeta/Proud Muse was next on my list to test out, but it's entirely possible I'm just going down a janky rabbit hole now.

8 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Mostly though I currently prefer to just build Rebel FO Lists since FFG lets me:

• Kylo LeFrance Ep Ep Ep
• Holo/Vonreg LeFrance Scorch Longshot Rivas

But can you build FO Rebel lists?

help me i'm running out of ideas that aren't just "guess I'll play b-wings"

5 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

help me i'm running out of ideas that aren't just "guess I'll play b-wings"

Scroll up someone posted one of the Rebel lists that looks good about 50+ pages ago.

17 minutes ago, RStan said:

Good thing I don't go on Reddit and I have actually been using Proud FOs since points dropped so I'll be 100% validated in all my opinions and proud of my bois 😎 (but seriously, I'm scared of Boba though)

Everyone should be at least a little scared of boba.

17 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

In the list I was running (Kylo+4FO), I wouldn't say I felt I had no damage, it was just very inconsistent against 3-agility (I know, I know, welcome to X-Wing). This is almost tolerable, but it loses races against 3-agi ships in greater numbers, and that's significantly less tolerable. My four 30-point TIE/fo's are getting snowballed by my opponent's six 22-point Academy Pilots. Basically it's just Kylo doing a bunch of work while the TIE/fo's try in vain to hold the line, and that's exactly how my games went, but both times I'd hemmorhaged too many TIE/fo points in the Filler Wars to be on the winning side at the end.

I totally agree that eac and every ship in a list does not have to output 4 hit results every turn to be viable, but at 30 points I'm not quite sure Proud FO's are doing quite enough.

I mean, I don't disagree, but I feel everyone is just hyper aware of their bad matchup or situation.

1) not everything has 3 agility. Not even most things have 3 agility, and many things with 3 agility have two attack dice.

2) Most things don't have force.

Basically, everyone is focusing on their personal loss aversions, and forgetting everyone else lost stuff too. It's totally fine, I'm just here to remind you everyone lost stuff. Also, everyone can build scary stuff. You can be scary too.

Go be scary.

27 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

Obviously I'll be eating my words

They can be quite tasty if a pinch of salt is added. This I have great experience with, trust me.

...and can be happily washed down with a nice tea.

42 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

i think everyone feels they have no damage and can't do damage without crackshot... but that's basically all of hyperspace.

Welcome to hyperspace.

It's not that I can't do damage, it's that I can't reasonably expect useful damage against top performing ships using 2 dice shots.

Kylo, Boba, Jedi, Vader, even Luke all can resist absurd quantities of 2 dice shots if those little shots can't cut through defense dice somehow. I'd consider that close to the list of the best pilots in Hyperspace, hence I'm loathe to make 2 dice shots a heavy part of the list. Supporting role? Sure. Game winners? If someone else shows it, great, but I won't be.

4 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Scroll up someone posted one of the Rebel lists that looks good about 50+ pages ago.

Actually, I do have one idea that's just my attempt to cosplay rebel 4 ship without Braylen and Ten.

Luke Skywalker (62)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Ship total: 62 Half Points: 31 Threshold: 3

Thane Kyrell (48)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Ship total: 48 Half Points: 24 Threshold: 3

Jake Farrell (36)
Daredevil (2)
Concussion Missiles (6)

Ship total: 44 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 2

Norra Wexley (Y-Wing) (41)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Ship total: 46 Half Points: 23 Threshold: 4


Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZhZ200Z4XWWWW142Y9XWWWW142Y50X117WW99Y25XW138WWWWW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Upgrades are flexible, but Norra should probably have a turret and I wanted to make Jake more dangerous on the flank.

@Biophysical beat me to it. I know exactly what you're saying @Tlfj200 and your point is right on, but I don't think this is a case of fearing the worst case scenario, I think it's a case of being concerned about relatively common scenarios. Bio's list are all likely HS participants that you would reasonably see in a typical Swiss (add in Skull squadrons and A-Wings as other anticipated ships my 2-die attackers will struggle against). I'm being a rube and guessing at a new meta, no question, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that 3 out of 6 Swiss matches are going to contain stuff on that No-No List.

Basically something like Kylo+4FO feels very uphill against those lists, and a relatively fair fight against the rest. That sounds like hard mode. Who wants hard mode?

Ultimately if 60%+ of my list is going to be 2-die attackers, I think I either need an awful lot of them (more than 4, anyway) or they need to have something that's going to make them punch a bit above their weight class. Otherwise why aren't I just using the available economical 3-die attackers we have available to us now?

For the record @DoubleDown11, the Kylo 2 SF, PT Muse list seems reasonable to me. PT Muse isn't jank for her cost, and the Gunner SFs are probably solid.

Just now, DoubleDown11 said:

@Biophysical beat me to it. I know exactly what you're saying @Tlfj200 and your point is right on, but I don't think this is a case of fearing the worst case scenario, I think it's a case of being concerned about relatively common scenarios. Bio's list are all likely HS participants that you would reasonably see in a typical Swiss (add in Skull squadrons and A-Wings as other anticipated ships my 2-die attackers will struggle against). I'm being a rube and guessing at a new meta, no question, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that 3 out of 6 Swiss matches are going to contain stuff on that No-No List.

Basically something like Kylo+4FO feels very uphill against those lists, and a relatively fair fight against the rest. That sounds like hard mode. Who wants hard mode?

Basically if 60%+ of my list is going to be 2-die attackers, I think I either need an awful lot of them (more than 4, anyway) or they need to have something that's going to make them punch a bit above their weight class. Otherwise why aren't I just using the available economical 3-die attackers we have available to us now?

you know how I beat kylo now in extended with vultures?

I ignore him until I have range 1 shots.

I block him to control his arc to control his damage.

I don't *like* my answers to him, but given how well the vultures do against the rest of the meta, I am willing to take that punch. That answer likewise extends to Luke Skywalker.

Sadly, my answer to boba is discords and very loud prayer. But basically my point is you pick your battles. If you don't want to bring 2-die ships, that's super fine, no worries. But to say they can't compete, broadly? I'm not sure I'm going to agree with you just yet. Might be right, but not sure I'm there.

The FOcho definitely didn't agree either.

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

PT Muse isn't jank for her cost

That's what I'm most curious to see. PT Muse strikes me as a very interesting combination of blocker, support, and general annoyance. I'm not sure if it's a Great Ship or anything like that, but at the very least it ought to be fun and moderately useful.

4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Sadly, my answer to boba is discords and very loud prayer. But basically my point is you pick your battles. If you don't want to bring 2-die ships, that's super fine, no worries. But to say they can't compete, broadly? I'm not sure I'm going to agree with you just yet. Might be right, but not sure I'm there.

The FOcho definitely didn't agree either.

I mean, same team? I did say that I think if you're bringing 2-die attackers and they're taking up the majority of your list, you mostly need to just bring a lot of them then. 7 Vultures or 8 TIE/fo's is a lot of them.

EDIT: To clarify my point, 4 TIE/fo's just doesn't feel like enough to leverage blocking with one and getting some R1/R2 attacks with the rest, and that's the best case scenario which assumes none have died.

11 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

For the record @DoubleDown11, the Kylo 2 SF, PT Muse list seems reasonable to me. PT Muse isn't jank for her cost, and the Gunner SFs are probably solid.

I’m tempted to drop muse to an epsilon and put primed thrusters on Kylo... probably a bad idea but primed thrusters Kylo can be a lot of fun.

I am just happy that some generic sycks and fangs won a small hyperspace tournament vs vader 6 ties.

Is this an irrelevant anecdote?

Yep

Does it still make me happy?

Yep

Will I use this randomly selected tournament as evidence that extended is the worst version of a good game right now?

Absolutely

#MakeWorldsHyperspaceOnly

16 hours ago, Biophysical said:

The wholesomeness of Kylo, if it exists at all, is only in relation to regen Jedi. "Not Obiwan" should not be the litmus for wholesome.

is getting more and more thematic by the day

11 hours ago, DoubleDown11 said:

Neither of my opponents has flipped a Tradition on me once. I think it's an annoying trigger for opponents to remember/keep track of, and also some ships are just not interested in doing so (e.g. Academy Pilots who want to save their focus to attack).

Yeah. And even weirder - there's some cases where you should always flip it - for example, why not take a crit on a destroyed ship to flip it? Are you a jerk for not reminding them of the obvious optimal "decision"? It's about as much of a decision as say, remembering to take an action after maneuvering.

11 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

I either needed extra punch from crackshot specifically to keep up with a high volume of token stacks and make the most of the few modded shots FOs work so very hard for.

Do you think you still need that punch in hyperspace?

8 hours ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

I know Proud Trad Omegas are the most efficient generic TIE fighters one can ask for, but how are Silencers (other than Avenger) + Epsilons?

I actually Avenger is now likely the second best silencer, because of the timing changes guaranteeing he always works, and munitions. I don't really want to kill something if Avenger is going to lock something and focus/lock proton torp them...

39 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

As far as I am concerned crackshot doesnt exist so I dont miss it. I am still just trying to sort out if Epsilons/SFs remain out right better than Low/Mid 30s Tie FOs available to Kylo lists.

Why would you ever take SFs? IF we don't think X-Wings are particularly good at 40, why would SFs be good at 42? Unless you mean without Gunner, and I'm dumb, but I don't think gunner-less SFs have a reason to exist anymore with 30 point proud omegas.

26 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Scroll up someone posted one of the Rebel lists that looks good about 50+ pages ago.

Leia Organa (79)

Blue Squadron Escort (40)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Blue Squadron Escort (40)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Blue Squadron Escort (40)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)
Total: 199

is my favorite

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

I am just happy that some sycks and fangs won a small hyperspace tournament vs vader 6 ties.

Is this an irrelevant anecdote?

Yep

Does it still make me happy?

Yep

Will I use this randomly selected tournament as evidence that extended is the worst version of a good game right now?

Absolutely

#MakeWorldsHyperspaceOnly

That reminds me, two people in here had a bet for which would be a better meta, hyperspace vs extended. I don't remember who, but I don't think they ever defined what better means.

...You should probably figure out what better means, so you can actually have a bet!

2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Why would you ever take SFs? IF we don't think X-Wings are particularly good at 40, why would SFs be good at 42? Unless you mean without Gunner, and I'm dumb, but I don't think gunner-less SFs have a reason to exist anymore with 30 point proud omegas.

I assumed that didnt need to be clarified. Obviously without gunner.

2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Do you think you still need that punch in hyperspace?

Sometimes but less sometimes.

38 minutes ago, Brunas said:

That reminds me, two people in here had a bet for which would be a better meta, hyperspace vs extended. I don't remember who, but I don't think they ever defined what better means.

...You should probably figure out what better means, so you can actually have a bet!

Better is the one that's less bad of course