17 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Right, but again the point is that even as a metric there it isn't particularly useful. Your point there is why they're good - extremely modified offense or defense. Where it starts falling apart is when we get into action efficiency comparisons. A black sun assassin has the extra agility and wonky barrel rolls that perform kind of like a boost and barrel roll combined. Does that mean their barrel rolls count as two actions, which they can then link into a focus for a third action? I'm not saying you're saying that, but arguments like that are why I strongly dislike the action efficiency arguments at all. They're both incredibly maneuverable, and that's their selling point!

X-Wing doesn't lend itself to being discussed with "words".

This is the available terminology:

• Interesting.
• Good.
• Bad.
• Unplayable.
• Panic.
• No Skill.
• High Skill.
• Jank.
• Meta.
• NPE.
• Joust.
• Flank.
• Efficient.
• Yes.
• No.
• Maybe.
• Do What You Want Man.
• I agree.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

This is the available terminology:

Several are listed twice or more.

eg joust and side joust

20 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Right, but again the point is that even as a metric there it isn't particularly useful. Your point there is why they're good - extremely modified offense or defense. Where it starts falling apart is when we get into action efficiency comparisons. A black sun assassin has the extra agility and wonky barrel rolls that perform kind of like a boost and barrel roll combined. Does that mean their barrel rolls count as two actions, which they can then link into a focus for a third action? I'm not saying you're saying that, but arguments like that are why I strongly dislike the action efficiency arguments at all. They're both incredibly maneuverable, and that's their selling point!

Just boil it all down to a single number we can use to blindly compare ships. Let's call it jousting value.

38 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I think you got the wrong message - I don't think action efficiency/economy is a useful metric for anything. At best, it's a proxy for what the ship actually does.

I'm ready to fight you on this to some very limited degree, by the way:

Explicitly stating "action efficiency" is useful during list building.

I made an excel sheet back in 1.0 and updated that for upgrades in 2.0. It lists the type of action in one of 6 arbitrary categories (offense, defense, mix, reposition, action denial, free action) with a short description. And I only included upgrades that have a net gain of action economy/efficiency.

Doing that led me to the problem you describe, and it's why I abandoned the idea and never finished the article.

I still take a look from time to time when I am looking for a specific effect, and that's how far I'll go in saying that it's useful.

12 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Imdaar has a bigger selling point by combining that maneuverability with "easy" stressless tokens for 1 point more than a Red Squaddie T-65. That is where my point is (this is not taking into account the 4 greens on the turns where it's player just decides to keep the cloak up and bug out into a focus or evade).

But they don't have an easy stressless token. They have a shield upgrade (bringing them to the same statline as a t65). This is exactly the point that's being missed.

There's absolutely no difference from "at the start of the game, place an evade token on your ship. It is not removed in the end phase", and the complicated decloak/gain evade/spend evade to cloak stuff.

If you're going to argue the decloak movement in and of itself is very valuable I'm going to agree with you, but it's not because of anything to do with"action efficiency".

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

I'm ready to fight you on this to some very limited degree, by the way:

Explicitly stating "action efficiency" is useful during list building.

I made an excel sheet back in 1.0 and updated that for upgrades in 2.0. It lists the type of action in one of 6 arbitrary categories (offense, defense, mix, reposition, action denial, free action) with a short description. And I only included upgrades that have a net gain of action economy/efficiency.

Doing that led me to the problem you describe, and it's why I abandoned the idea and never finished the article.

I still take a look from time to time when I am looking for a specific effect, and that's how far I'll go in saying that it's useful.

I don't know how to argue with "I made of list of useful effects ships can do, and when I'm looking for those effects I can reference that list" so uhh... I agree?

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

I don't know how to argue with "I made of list of useful effects ships can do, and when I'm looking for those effects I can reference that list" so uhh... I agree?

Hahaha, yeah...

I still use the idea of action economy to identify the useful effects, and that'd be where and how far the concept is IMO useful

2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

But they don't have an easy stressless token. They have a shield upgrade (bringing them to the same statline as a t65). This is exactly the point that's being missed.

There's absolutely no difference from "at the start of the game, place an evade token on your ship. It is not removed in the end phase", and the complicated decloak/gain evade/spend evade to cloak stuff.

If you're going to argue the decloak movement in and of itself is very valuable I'm going to agree with you, but it's not because of anything to do with"action efficiency".

🤨 So the decloak into an Evade roughly equates to a shield upgrade making the hp difference an effective wash. I can accept that. So wtf is up with the 1 pt increase over the bare Red Squaddie for a stressless repo into Focus, second repo or recloak? Even your baseline looses an attack die and gains a stress to repo (boost only in this case) into a Focus.

Action economy by itself is pointless since not all actions are equal.

And T65 are very bad

30 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 So the decloak into an Evade roughly equates to a shield upgrade making the hp difference an effective wash. I can accept that. So wtf is up with the 1 pt increase over the bare Red Squaddie for a stressless repo into Focus, second repo or recloak? Even your baseline looses an attack die and gains a stress to repo (boost only in this case) into a Focus.

Sorry I'm missing the stressless repo into focus, second repo, or recloak. You mean just the decloak mechanic? I agree that's extremely powerful (and most of the reason phantoms are so good), but I don't think trying to count that as an "action" is the power. It's very different from for example a fang's maneuverability, and trying to handwave it all as repositioning isn't helpful.

If the argument is "imdaars still seem pretty cheap compared to t65s", then "i agree"

2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

trying to handwave it all as repositioning isn't helpful.

It is honest though since that is what the net effect of decloak is.

3 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

And T65 are very bad

They are a pretty useful baseline on what to expect for a 3 red ship with that durability. There are more point efficient ships, but usually a noticeable cost (ARC's base size, K-fighter lacking 1 straights/boost). Only the Phantoms and SFs outclass it by a noticeable margin and the former significantly so.

19 minutes ago, Brunas said:

They have a shield upgrade (bringing them to the same statline as a t65). This is exactly the point that's being missed.

More like a shield upgrade that comes with a Gonk that only requires a single action. Or an R5 that didn't need charges and all those restrictions.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

X-Wing doesn't lend itself to being discussed with "words".

This is the available terminology:

• Interesting.
• Good.
• Bad.
• Unplayable.
• Panic.
• No Skill.
• High Skill.
• Jank.
• Meta.
• NPE.
• Joust.
• Flank.
• Efficient.
• Yes.
• No.
• Maybe.
• Do What You Want Man.
• I agree.

Soontir Fel

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

There's absolutely no difference from "at the start of the game, place an evade token on your ship. It is not removed in the end phase", and the complicated decloak/gain evade/spend evade to cloak stuff.

Digression: Man, I had a good run in 1.0 with a Juke+Comm Relay QuickDraw who had a wingman with that tech that gave her an evade when she deployed. Good times (until I met a Palob).

I didn't realize I was training for 2.0 Phantoms at the time. Gotta hold that evade token at all costs!

47 minutes ago, Octarine-08 said:

More like a shield upgrade that comes with a Gonk that only requires a single action. Or an R5 that didn't need charges and all those restrictions.

This. It's a shield upgrade on the turn they die. It's Action: Regen one shield on any turn they are shot at and live, which is a big difference

1 hour ago, Octarine-08 said:

They are a pretty useful baseline on what to expect for a 3 red ship with that durability. There are more point efficient ships, but usually a noticeable cost (ARC's base size, K-fighter lacking 1 straights/boost). Only the Phantoms and SFs outclass it by a noticeable margin and the former significantly so.

They are bad, for the same price you can get a Bwing and not die at the first 2 ships shooting at your generic direction. All while being able to link focus to a barrel roll, was anyone talking about action economy?

Yes, the T-65 is bad. Which is why we’ve never seen them post results and win anything. Certainly not one of the most common ships out there.

We were talking about generics, not about our lord and saviour wedge

4 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

We were talking about generics, not about our lord and saviour wedge

You can't deconvolute the chassis with the words though

1 hour ago, jagsba said:

You can't deconvolute the chassis with the words though

Pretty sure that's what generics are... and they're bad

Speaking of Wedge, there used to be a thread around here somewhere telling everyone how bad he is

Had like 900 pages or something. Wonder where it went

I wonder if the t65 will go down with the same fate as the Armada Assault Frigate MK2, "a generalist ship in a specialized meta - not specifically bad, just not great at anything."

1 hour ago, Maui. said:

Wedge bad

LIES! DECEPTION!

Every day more lies.

5 hours ago, Makaze said:

Pretty sure that's what generics are... and they're bad

Yeah. But if all generics are bad then how do we tell if a chassis is bad?

6 hours ago, Maui. said:

Speaking of Wedge, there used to be a thread around here somewhere telling everyone how bad he is

Had like 900 pages or something. Wonder where it went

He got worse 😟