4 minutes ago, jagsba said:

**** that wordy card combo deck.

I Agree.

4 hours ago, Octarine-08 said:

One of them has access to 19 point wingmen.

Which should arguable be a 16-18 pt wingmen...The 1 point swing I don't believe is enough. If FFG wants the Vultures to be calc batteries escorting the Hyenas, cool, I actually like where that takes the faction but they need to be cheaper than 19, even if that means increasing ESC more.

8 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

This isn’t even beefs Final form! Wedge up 3, still totally playable. U-wing is out, (except maybe Magva if ordnance heavy list start becoming more common).

Wedge went up 3 and is still totally playable - Cassian went up 4 and is "out"?

5 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

I think they went a bit overboard with infiltrator nerfs: while I totally support a nerf to hate, making it 9 points on large ships while keep it untouched on small ones it's too much, especially if you are already semi randomly increasing Maul and Dooku base points.

Hate on Infiltrators seems pretty much the same situation as Moldy Crow - I see people complaining it's too expensive, but even at 9 points for hate (and 18 for Moldy) I've never seen the idea of a hate-less infiltrator, or title-less modly crow ever. Basically, I don't believe you? 9 points for 5-9 calculate tokens over the game is absolutely obscene value. It makes first edition Expertise look overpriced by comparison.

8 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

This isn’t even beefs Final form! Wedge up 3, still totally playable. U-wing is out, (except maybe Magva if ordnance heavy list start becoming more common). Still a bajillion pilots to pick from, Biggs and Horton come to mind as they were untouched. (Miranda to now. Her drop to 43 puts her in U-wing switcheroo territory, although not hyperspace legal.)

TL;DR, keep bringing your beef counters to HS.

20 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Hate on Infiltrators seems pretty much the same situation as Moldy Crow - I see people complaining it's too expensive, but even at 9 points for hate (and 18 for Moldy) I've never seen the idea of a hate-less infiltrator, or title-less modly crow ever. Basically, I don't believe you? 9 points for 5-9 calculate tokens over the game is absolutely obscene value. It makes first edition Expertise look overpriced by comparison.

But maul wasn't even super great before? My hypothesis is that whatever's good now is most likely to either be something that was already good and not hit too hard (e.g. tie Swarm) or something that got a significant drop (e.g. Rey). Maul was already just sort of good and now his desired build starts at 8 points more expensive. There's a slim chance that the changes open up a seam for something like maul but I find it unlikely.

Hot Takes:
Rebels: Seems better but I suspect we'll get a slightly different flavor of beef that's just about as strong.

Imperials: Not sure crew platform + squad buff crew + mini swarm is ever going to happen as much as they keep trying. Not having access to a cheap crew platform seems to be the main holdup. I was pleasantly surprised by the magnitude of the v1 and Decimator price cuts. No cuts to non-Vader x1s, no cuts to generic strikers/interceptors, weak cuts to TIE Aggressors paired with turret/gunner increases - I don't think FFG is actually reviewing all ships/pilots for these adjustments despite the 6 month wait, which is frustrating.

Scum: Decreases here feel spotty/over-cautious and some obviously bad ships being left out/given perfunctory decreases only. Again, it feels like there wasn't much time put into some of the less played ships. The IG88A + 2 others combo is now available, which seems worth looking into.

First Order: I don't have strong opinions here.

Resistance: I don't think anything could make me like this faction but adding cheap support platforms and combo-wing crew certainly isn't helping. Cuts to the Falcon seem aggressive, especially considering how cautious handling of other factions has been.

Republic: Jedi cost discounts seem dramatic, even given the 7B increase. Not sure if they can get the pricing right so CLT/7B both are used. Clone decreases seem timid. Glad R2 went up, but given the steep bids of Jedi lists, doesn't seem like enough.

Separatists: Glad to see weird stuff getting decreases but it doesn't seem like they went far enough on making the platforms themselves cheap enough. Droids are still paying too much for special abilities they wont live to use more than maybe once. Hyena costs/slots seem specially designed to prevent them from actually being relevant. I'm not sure why we aren't allowed to have good Missiles in the game.

25 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

I'm not sure why we aren't allowed to have good Missiles in the game.

The answer IMO is that there are SO MANY cheap ships that can take missiles that if one got any good they could be spammed. Lock restrictions and limited 2-3 should help.

And yes, they weren't nearly as aggressive as they could have been with pricing on CIS droids, and then they also banned maul. Neat guess I'm a Rey player now!

49 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

But maul wasn't even super great before? My hypothesis is that whatever's good now is most likely to either be something that was already good and not hit too hard (e.g. tie Swarm) or something that got a significant drop (e.g. Rey). Maul was already just sort of good and now his desired build starts at 8 points more expensive. There's a slim chance that the changes open up a seam for something like maul but I find it unlikely.

The double infiltrator list had like 9 pts of play before you even had to start thinking of making sacrifices. I'm pretty sure it'll just cut the least important words and end up at 200pts and just fine.

3 minutes ago, jagsba said:

The double infiltrator list had like 9 pts of play before you even had to start thinking of making sacrifices. I'm pretty sure it'll just cut the least important words and end up at 200pts and just fine.

Yeah you just drop the Shield Upgrades and it all fits at 200 pts

50 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

I'm not sure why we aren't allowed to have good Missiles in the game.

Because defenders exist.

46 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

Hot Takes:
Rebels: Seems better but I suspect we'll get a slightly different flavor of beef that's just about as strong.

Imperials: Not sure crew platform + squad buff crew + mini swarm is ever going to happen as much as they keep trying. Not having access to a cheap crew platform seems to be the main holdup. I was pleasantly surprised by the magnitude of the v1 and Decimator price cuts. No cuts to non-Vader x1s, no cuts to generic strikers/interceptors, weak cuts to TIE Aggressors paired with turret/gunner increases - I don't think FFG is actually reviewing all ships/pilots for these adjustments despite the 6 month wait, which is frustrating.

Scum: Decreases here feel spotty/over-cautious and some obviously bad ships being left out/given perfunctory decreases only. Again, it feels like there wasn't much time put into some of the less played ships. The IG88A + 2 others combo is now available, which seems worth looking into.

First Order: I don't have strong opinions here.

Resistance: I don't think anything could make me like this faction but adding cheap support platforms and combo-wing crew certainly isn't helping. Cuts to the Falcon seem aggressive, especially considering how cautious handling of other factions has been.

Republic: Jedi cost discounts seem dramatic, even given the 7B increase. Not sure if they can get the pricing right so CLT/7B both are used. Clone decreases seem timid. Glad R2 went up, but given the steep bids of Jedi lists, doesn't seem like enough.

Separatists: Glad to see weird stuff getting decreases but it doesn't seem like they went far enough on making the platforms themselves cheap enough. Droids are still paying too much for special abilities they wont live to use more than maybe once. Hyena costs/slots seem specially designed to prevent them from actually being relevant. I'm not sure why we aren't allowed to have good Missiles in the game.

Am I the only one who's pretty okay with them just trying to cut the best lists down to size without boosting random unplayed ships up to take their place?

Or are do we still flatter ourselves into thinking we don't judge ships subjectively by the meta they're in and know their essential costs.

10 minutes ago, jagsba said:

The double infiltrator list had like 9 pts of play before you even had to start thinking of making sacrifices. I'm pretty sure it'll just cut the least important words and end up at 200pts and just fine.

They increased it by 16 points, though. And it was...okay? Good even, but not meta-defining, except in the narrow sense that CIS didn't really have anything else that was even sorta good, so if you wanted to play competitive CIS you started with Maul and Dooku with hate.

18 minutes ago, RStan said:

Yeah you just drop the Shield Upgrades and it all fits at 200 pts

Fortunately, the bid was eaten up.

17 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Because defenders exist.

I mean, if that's the main reason, then they should just remove the missile slot from defenders and open up space, right?

7 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I mean, if that's the main reason, then they should just remove the missile slot from defenders and open up space, right?

Do what you want man

15 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

They increased it by 16 points, though. And it was...okay? Good even, but not meta-defining, except in the narrow sense that CIS didn't really have anything else that was even sorta good, so if you wanted to play competitive CIS you started with Maul and Dooku with hate.

It was swimming in extra points though. As @RStan noted. You drop the Shields and it still fits. It'll still be good. List building should always require decisions. Plus a lot of separatist swarms are doing pretty okay and the nantex is out soon. Think the faction will be okay.

1 hour ago, Ablazoned said:

But maul wasn't even super great before?

I strongly disagree. This Maul, with or without Protons:

Darth Maul (65)
Hate (3)
Proton Torpedoes (12)
Chancellor Palpatine (14)
Total: 94

was probably the most efficient points you could possibly spend in the game, in any faction. The only thing holding Maul back was anything else in the faction being worth playing, and with the changes to the belbullab and addition of Hyenas, it seems likely there's now some combination of stuff you can take that would be absolutely disgusting if they hadn't done something.

It's now 103:

Darth Maul (67)
Hate (9)
Proton Torpedoes (13)
Chancellor Palpatine (14)
Total: 103

So you're probably losing the proton torps in the process.

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

Hate on Infiltrators seems pretty much the same situation as Moldy Crow - I see people complaining it's too expensive, but even at 9 points for hate (and 18 for Moldy) I've never seen the idea of a hate-less infiltrator, or title-less modly crow ever. Basically, I don't believe you? 9 points for 5-9 calculate tokens over the game is absolutely obscene value. It makes first edition Expertise look overpriced by comparison.

I agree, but I also don't think non-Hate infiltrators are worth their current costs. I'm fine with erring on the safe side for a bit and hopefully seeing some play out of the non-force ones though.

3 minutes ago, Brunas said:

was probably the most efficient points you could possibly spend in the game, in any faction.

I was mostly going by results. I've played a bunch of Maul and agree he's good by himself, or with Dooku and maybe also Grievous. But the rest of the list was typically not good, and I'm not impressed by the rests of the CIS points reductions or new content. Maul+Vultures was everyone's first CIS build and it's just not a meta thing. That said, I hope I'm wrong!

1 minute ago, punkUser said:

I agree, but I also don't think non-Hate infiltrators are worth their current costs. I'm fine with erring on the safe side for a bit and hopefully seeing some play out of the non-force ones though.

Yep, I agree - naked Maul/Dooku should probably be cheaper, and hate should probably cost even more - like 15+ territory.

Ffg wants an actual choice between ESC and non-ESC vultures, I get that.

And 4 ESC vultures is worth around as much as 5 Non-esc vultures.

But the problem is that Vultures are ******* Awful and ESC isn't great on vultures at 5.

ESC should have stayed at 4. Vulture generics should have gone down to 16. Struts should have stayed at 3, because **** em, that's why. If struts are good the game is bad.

1 hour ago, Transmogrifier said:

Republic: Jedi cost discounts seem dramatic, even given the 7B increase.

Jedi got a straight nerf. The only build seeing any regular success was 7B+R2, CLT has problems discounts won't fix

2 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Jedi got a straight nerf. The only build seeing any regular success was 7B+R2, CLT has problems discounts won't fix

General Kenobi would like to say hello!

1 minute ago, Ablazoned said:

General Kenobi would like to say hello!

4 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Jedi got a straight nerf. The only build seeing any regular success was 7B+R2, CLT has problems discounts won't fix

1 minute ago, Ablazoned said:

General Kenobi would like to say hello!

Yeah, Ben will see play supporting non-Deltas and making CLT lists a bit less bad, but 2-3 Delta archetype as a whole got nerfed

2 hours ago, Brunas said:

Wedge went up 3 and is still totally playable - Cassian went up 4 and is "out"?

Hate on Infiltrators seems pretty much the same situation as Moldy Crow - I see people complaining it's too expensive, but even at 9 points for hate (and 18 for Moldy) I've never seen the idea of a hate-less infiltrator, or title-less modly crow ever. Basically, I don't believe you? 9 points for 5-9 calculate tokens over the game is absolutely obscene value. It makes first edition Expertise look overpriced by comparison.

Hey! Someone else is on my "Force = better Expertise" train!