13 minutes ago, caelenvasius said:

I’m sitting right next to him at the Red Robin! He’s seen it, and will be registering soon to talk to you.

he can just email me at [email protected] then if he's not already on these forums.

19 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

he can just email me at [email protected] then if he's not already on these forums.

He’s not, but probably will be after Day 2. I’ll send him the email as well.

1 hour ago, Dreadai said:

That data is bad ... or at least the lists aren’t assigned to the correct player. Bob Dee is flying Drea Scurrgs not imperial 5s.

I changed it. I also go through a subset* of players to confirm, but so far this was the only error

edit: so far 37, still the only mistake

Some first infos about denver:

11.3% conversion rate (top 18 out of 160 players)

• Faction distribution, swiss:
  • 45 imperial (28%)
  • 50 rebels (31%)
  • scum (18, 11%) resistance (13, 8%), FO (12, 8%), separatists (13, 8%), republic (8, 5%) were much lower
• Faction distribution, cut:
  • 8 imperial (44%), 4 rebel (22%), 3 scum (17%, hey they are alive! ), 2 FO (11%), 1 separatist (6%), 0 resistance and republic
    • Rebels now underperformed compared to their massive lineup, unlike in hyperspace. Scum went up a bit, FO and separatists are pretty much the same, resistance and republic went down.
    • Imperials have a massive increase from swiss to cut. I will later look at what made cut for them. Hint: the /x1 was in 53% (49% go to Vader) of imperial lists, Phantoms in 46% of imperial lists
• Squad sizes:
  • 16 2ship lists
  • 62 3ship lists
  • 60 4ship lists
  • 11 5ship lists
  • 9 6ship lists
  • 1 7ship list
• 11.3% used generics only, and half of them were quad phantoms (9 lists). That puts quadphantoms at 5.6% of the field.
• The next popular list is /x1 + interceptor + whisper at 8 lists.
• I must have missed the memo on nr3, because that was Gunboat+Lambda+x1 (6)
• And also nr3, FatHan in the YT1300+Awing combination (6). However, there are several more FatHan variations. Overall, 14/19 YT1300s are Han

More on Han:

• All used trickshot+kanan+dampeners. 12/14 used R2D2, 5/14 took the title, 6/14 took Luke Gunner. To me, that classifies 12 as FatHan.
• 3 people brought the Han+Lando variation
• 5 did not understand why the original build is on 191points, and they went up to 198-200 points, 3 went even lower, and 6 stayed on the 191-192 points.
  • funnily enough, that does not correlate with their wins. 4-5 wins had 192, 197, 190, 200, 191 points. 0-2 wins had 191, 198, 181, 191, 191 points. Maybe I didn't understand that it doesn't matter that much...
• Conclusion from me: Yes, Han is skill dependent. Which is something I tried to emphasize before already: "It is precisely part of the problem that this Han is as skill dependent - he can remove so much agency that the opponent does not get to play. " And I was by far not the only one to say so.

More on Phantoms:

• 10 Whispers, 1 Echo, 3 Imdaars, and 36 Sigmas
• Upgrades:
  • 38 Jukes, 3 crackshots (-> 6 quadphantoms went for the bid!), 9 blanks
  • 3 Whispers used 5th brother
• That puts PhantomSpam at 10 lists

More on RebelBeef:

Nope, sorry. I won't go through all lists to figure out whether they were or were not rebel beef. I guess I did...

• I would define rebel beef as 4-5 ship list with a high amount of HP and 3dice attacks. One finer distinction is the addition of Leia or not.
• There were 25 lists with 4-5 rebel ships
• 2x KKKK, 2x KKYY, 1x UUUU, 1x VXX100+2A+sheathipede are lists I don't count as rebel beef, and one was a 6ship list that don't remove because it has Leia and 36HP
  • that leaves 20 rebel beef. Upon further inspecion, 18 of them had Leia.
  • none have fewer than 10 red dice (usually 11 or 12)

Overall, 22/160 were going for the best options to win (13.75%). That is not that high and a good sign for the community. Including the rebel beef, 42/160 went for one of the big 3 meta staples.

Meta thoughts but this time they're from me:

That's a lot of Blind Han.

• Kanan+Inertial Dampeners Han showed up 14 times. One made cut at 5-1, another 5 went 4-2.
• Kanan+Inert was 14/14 (100%) of rebel Hans, Hans were 14/16 (87.5%) of rebel Falcons.
• Inert Han was in 14/50 (28%) of Rebel lists.
• I would hate this build even if it was confined to the bottom tables.
• There were also a lot of K-Wings, jesus. Why do you people even own four K-Wings?

Vultures couldn't cut it.

• Darth Maul showed up 11 times, out of 12 CIS lists (92%). Every CIS list contained at least one Infiltrator.
• One Maul/Dooku list made cut at 5-1, and one Maul/Wat+3 list went 4-2. Four CIS lists contained no Vultures whatsoever, including the only CIS to make cut.
• Of the 8 lists containing Vultures, 7 went 3-3 or worse.
• Separatist's only viable build is un-thematic double Infiltrator lists.
• This was a trend (even in hyperspace) before this tournament, that has continued - Vultures and Belbullab-22s consistently fail to post results.

Scum in Cut, but it's getting weird.

• Drea + Scurrgs showed up twice and made cut twice. Strong.
• I don't know what the **** Nym/Torani/Hired Gun/Jakku Gunrunner is, but it went 5-1.
• 7x Scyks, Fenn/Talonbane/Zealous Recruit/Unkar; IG88A/IG88C/Nym all went 4-2.
• Are Scum players okay?

Imperial players either brought Vader or Phantoms, or went home.

• There were 45 Imperial lists, including 8 in cut.
• Not a single Imperial list went 4-2 or better without either Vader, one or more Phantoms, or both.
• Unless I can't count but somebody will correct me.

Jedi couldn't cut it either, but they were closer.

• No Republic in cut. Three went 4-2.
• Anakin was in 7/8 (87.5%) of Republic lists.
• I don't have much to say about these last three factions.

First Order is still the Kylo, Quickdraw, and Tavson faction.

• Don't leave home without at least one, or something.

It's the Resistance!

• They all went 4-2 I guess?

6 hours ago, Dreadai said:

That data is bad ... or at least the lists aren’t assigned to the correct player. Bob Dee is flying Drea Scurrgs not imperial 5s.

Likely just a typo on my part. Looks like someone fixed it.

News from Hannover, Germany top cut...

29 player top cut. Top 8 is just ending. Looks like Han/Jake won 50-47 vs Ani/Mace/2x Torrent on stream.

There were no CIS in cut.

Hera, Wedge, Norra (Y) made cut 6 times. Not sure if any are left.

Two Dutch (the nationality) players in top 4. Netherlands On Top?

Don't think lists are anywhere yet.

Netherlands has been on top of european xwing since like ever, if only they manage to get a team for the ETC....

The game on stream also strenghtened my convintion that while Kanan+Dampers MIGHT be a bit too much, it's mostly players still have no clue on how to play against Han Jake... The republic player deployed way too spread and went after Jake for a whole hour (despite deploying Anakin at the opposite corner of the A-wing, gifting Han free shots on him while Anakin crossed the mat to get Jake) then gambled all his hopes on a 4 hull Torrent not dying in 2 turns of Han shooting.

Han was never threatened the whole game and was shot on only during the last turn of the game... And despite all of that, they game was incredibly close.

I still beleive all this Han panic is very unjustified, like it's also being shown at Denver where only one made the cut despite a strong presence. Let's see if Han Jake can win now that's playing against 2 ps 6 ships who alos won the bid war

1 hour ago, svelok said:

• I would hate this build even if it was confined to the bottom tables.

Why can't you just appreciate their skill?!?!!!!!!

48 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

I still beleive all this Han panic is very unjustified, like it's also being shown at Denver where only one made the cut despite a strong presence. Let's see if Han Jake can win now that's playing against 2 ps 6 ships who alos won the bid war

You’re entitled to your opinion of course. It’s also noted that many of us preferred a different style of game that focuses more on dials than on hard list counters.

Sad Roger Rogers

6 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

You’re entitled to your opinion of course. It’s also noted that many of us preferred a different style of game that focuses more on dials than on hard list counters.

This is exactly it. It also is the kind of list that significantly narrows the meta just by being competitive.

17 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

You’re entitled to your opinion of course. It’s also noted that many of us preferred a different style of game that focuses more on dials than on hard list counters.

A hundred times this.

The Han-Jake list could never win anything, ever, and I'd still holler from the rooftops for a nerf. It takes just about everything bad from 1st Edition and ports it all directly across to a game that was meant to be doing away with them: minimal cost infinite regen, firing arcs that are irrelevant, dials that are irrelevant, massive points fortressing, even actual fortressing. The only things missing are an infinite bomb and Harpoon.

10 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

You’re entitled to your opinion of course. It’s also noted that many of us preferred a different style of game that focuses more on dials than on hard list counters.

I keep hearing this and I don't get what this mean

Do rebel beef focus more on dials than a Falcon? Do drea swarms? Do Phantoms?

Flying what's almost is a one ship list is the epitome of dials mattering, both for who plays it and who plays against it

Vader Vynder Jendon Denver Matchup Breakdowns. The list is interesting and being talked about so I wanted to take a closer look at what it faced in Swiss.

#1:
W - kylo qd null
W - ani mace ahsoka
L - cassian wedge braylen ten
W - qd recoil fotp
W - poe lulo nien (streamed)
W - vader soontir whisper

#2:
W - Quad Phantoms
L - Rebel Beef
W - Rex Whisper Nu
L - Vader Nu Nu Nu
W - Luke Thane Wedge AP5 Leia
W - Scum Jank

#3
L - CIS Vultures
W - Imp Aces
L - CIS Vultures
W - Imp Storm Squads
L - 7 Sycks
W - Mirror

#4
W - Wedge Luke
L - XBUB
W - Mirror
W - BXUX
L - YYZZZU
L - Han Norra Jake

#5
L - Ani Mace 2x Torrent
L - Kylo
W - QD Midnight Jober
W - Maul Dooku Smug Bastards of Legend
L - Wedge Dash
L - Soontir Vader Kagi

#6
L - Blount Dutch Wulfwarro Saw
W - Jendon 3x Storm Squads
L - Mirror
W - Wedge Norra Gavin
L - Vader Whisper Soontir
L - Mirror

Bonus Content: 7 Syck Guy went 4-2 and is the real MVP
W - Old T Seevor Runner Runner Banana Banana
W - Drea 3 Lok
L - QD FOTP FOTP
L - Maarek Scourge Howl Mauler Duchess
W - Quad Counter of Legend
W - Lulo Talli Temmin Nien

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

I keep hearing this and I don't get what this mean

Do rebel beef focus more on dials than a Falcon? Do drea swarms? Do Phantoms?

Flying what's almost is a one ship list is the epitome of dials mattering, both for who plays it and who plays against it

It really isn’t. If you have eight positions with significant differences after your dial is set, even if there’s only one single “good” option for dial choice, move last, AND you can make sure you get a shot regardless of any of that (and even then still have mods)... your dial matters lot less than ships that have to point a certain direction to get a shot and give up any modification to select from a set of minor repositioning options.

I mean, I get that some people like the combo-wing version of the game that was more prevalent in V1, but I really don’t see how someone can view the planning phase as equal for those type of lists. Imo, it’s a fundamental misunderstanding of the value of that phase to different lists.

German Final: KKKK vs Imperial Aces (Vader, Whisper, Soontir)

50min played and 2 Ks down, the other 2 both on 2hull, Whisper on 1hull, Vader lost shields

48 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

I keep hearing this and I don't get what this mean

Do rebel beef focus more on dials than a Falcon? Do drea swarms? Do Phantoms?

Flying what's almost is a one ship list is the epitome of dials mattering, both for who plays it and who plays against it

If I get to decide if I do the move on my dial after you've moved, or can in some other way (id, advS, SNR) tweak it. The move on my dial matters less, and therefore so do yours.

Incidentally, when your Lando takes a lock action and is measuring range to the tug, you are, in fact, not allowed to then pivot and measure range from the tug to where your Han is about to be

31 minutes ago, svelok said:

Incidentally, when your Lando takes a lock action and is measuring range to the tug, you are, in fact, not allowed to then pivot and measure range from the tug to where your Han is about to be

Haha, I thought exactly the same when it happened!

edit: stream also shows what happens when Han forgets about dampners, coordinated boosts or which ship moves first...

e2: or that you can still be ahead after spreading 13 damage over 4 ships

36 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Haha, I thought exactly the same when it happened!

edit: stream also shows what happens when Han forgets about dampners, coordinated boosts or which ship moves first...

e2: or that you can still be ahead after spreading 13 damage over 4 ships

When turns take forever, it can be hard to collect enough MOV on 2 ship lists.

40 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Haha, I thought exactly the same when it happened!

edit: stream also shows what happens when Han forgets about dampners, coordinated boosts or which ship moves first...

e2: or that you can still be ahead after spreading 13 damage over 4 ships

To be fair, bumping the Hired gun was the correct move. As was banking out towards it two turns later. Both moves dodged really potent fire.

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

I keep hearing this and I don't get what this mean

Do rebel beef focus more on dials than a Falcon? Do drea swarms? Do Phantoms?

Flying what's almost is a one ship list is the epitome of dials mattering, both for who plays it and who plays against it

1.) Most people also think Phantom's are a problem, but they are in fact locked into the choice they make in the planning phase, so accurately guessing their maneuver is a big step in winning.

2.) Rebel Beef is extremely dial and arc dependent, if it guessed wrong, the list will do terribly.

3.) Drea swarms are similar to beef in that they have decisions to make.

One could argue that all of these lists are underpriced, but their planning phase dictates what happens in the game. Fat Han just has to avoid flying into the middle of opposing formations, which is plainly too much for some players, but we don't design the game around those players.

Just now, Hiemfire said:

To be fair, bumping the Hired gun was the correct move. As was banking out towards it two turns later. Both moves dodged really potent fire.

I'm not sure.

• Shoot and remove the Quadjumper instead of the r1 shot that took 4 shields off of Nym
  • that opens up the option to run through the left side of the board and away
• A turn later: again the same
• A turn later: go faster with Lando and run away, do a bank that gives Han an action, then boost yourself.

He wanted too many shots when he was comfortably ahead on points.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

I'm not sure.

• Shoot and remove the Quadjumper instead of the r1 shot that took 4 shields off of Nym
  • that opens up the option to run through the left side of the board and away
• A turn later: again the same
• A turn later: go faster with Lando and run away, do a bank that gives Han an action, then boost yourself.

He wanted too many shots when he was comfortably ahead on points.

I wasn't disagreeing about his lack of focusing fire, I was focused on the lack of ID usage.