I guess the other question we have to ask is whether some of these Ace + pocket ace(s) + 1-2 generics is actually considered the same as Ace + mini swarm idea? I personally put Poe/Lulo/Talli/Bastian in the same category as TIE Salad which I don't consider Ace + Mini swarm. Similar to Kylo + Good named stuff. How much of a mix between pocket aces and generics is "allowed" to still be considered Ace + mini swarm vs a "Salad" list?

Soontir + 4 Alphas/3 Sabers

I really don't see "ace + 3" as ace + swarm, even though I started that with my own suggestion...

18 minutes ago, RStan said:

...is there anything else anyone would like to add to the candidates or oppose to the ones listed?

I'll throw Wat + 6 ESC drones in for consideration. Not well rounded, but unmatched in raw initial.ounch at range 2-3.

4 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Luke + 3 X/Y/U

Luke + UUU ( Cassian )

4 minutes ago, RStan said:

I guess the other question we have to ask is whether some of these Ace + pocket ace(s) + 1-2 generics is actually considered the same as Ace + mini swarm idea? I personally put Poe/Lulo/Talli/Bastian in the same category as TIE Salad which I don't consider Ace + Mini swarm. Similar to Kylo + Good named stuff. How much of a mix between pocket aces and generics is "allowed" to still be considered Ace + mini swarm vs a "Salad" list?

Its a good question. I think the list of lists that are Ace + 4-5 is alot smaller? Delta Obi Torrents is cool but not alot of stuff can do that.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Its a good question. I think the list of lists that are Ace + 4-5 is alot smaller? Delta Obi Torrents is cool but not alot of stuff can do that.

Not to mention I think Obi + 3 Arcs is generally better than Obi + 4 missile torrents. Though the torrents can do work.

This is one of my favorite casual lists:

5 minutes ago, RStan said:

I guess the other question we have to ask is whether some of these Ace + pocket ace(s) + 1-2 generics is actually considered the same as Ace + mini swarm idea? I personally put Poe/Lulo/Talli/Bastian in the same category as TIE Salad which I don't consider Ace + Mini swarm. Similar to Kylo + Good named stuff. How much of a mix between pocket aces and generics is "allowed" to still be considered Ace + mini swarm vs a "Salad" list?

I think the difference is semantic. It's an ace+lesser ships that are primarily combat ships (as opposed to support), primarily for efficiency, and not critical for an end game. If you aesthetically like uniformity, then it might matters, but from most gameplay perspectives I don't think it does.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Its a good question. I think the list of lists that are Ace + 4-5 is alot smaller?

Is the cut off for Ace + mini swarm need to require that "mini swarm" to be 4 ships to make a minimum total of 5 ships? Does it depend on percentage of uniques vs generics if the "mini swarm" is only 3 ships? Obi + 3 ARCs feels like Ace + mini swarm, it's just that the mini swarm is based on a beefy ship that can only fit 3. Even though I listed it originally, Poe + 3 As feels less like an Ace + Miniswarm because 2 of the As are just pocket aces and the last A is a generic that just fits. @Ablazoned is Wat really an Ace though? I see him as support and additional firepower in turn 2 of engagement.

7 minutes ago, RStan said:

Is the cut off for Ace + mini swarm need to require that "mini swarm" to be 4 ships to make a minimum total of 5 ships? Does it depend on percentage of uniques vs generics if the "mini swarm" is only 3 ships? Obi + 3 ARCs feels like Ace + mini swarm, it's just that the mini swarm is based on a beefy ship that can only fit 3. Even though I listed it originally, Poe + 3 As feels less like an Ace + Miniswarm because 2 of the As are just pocket aces and the last A is a generic that just fits. @Ablazoned is Wat really an Ace though? I see him as support and additional firepower in turn 2 of engagement.

End of the day its the mix of gameplay i think.

1 Ace and 3-5 other ships creates interesting game states almost always.

Even going back to QD + Gunboats.

Its just fun.

Poe + As is actually 3 Aces and 1 generic as well but thats because resistance is undercosted to high **** so it can compete in an unbalanced ship count format.

6 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

This is one of my favorite casual lists:

Soontir Fel — TIE Interceptor	52
Predator	2
Ship Total: 54
Half Points: 27 Threshold: 2
“Duchess” — TIE/sk Striker	42
Predator	2
Ship Total: 44
Half Points: 22 Threshold: 2
Planetary Sentinel — TIE/sk Striker	34
Ship Total: 34
Half Points: 17 Threshold: 2
Planetary Sentinel — TIE/sk Striker	34
Ship Total: 34
Half Points: 17 Threshold: 2
Planetary Sentinel — TIE/sk Striker	34
Ship Total: 34
Half Points: 17 Threshold: 2

Duchess can also be swapped for Turr Phenir 1:1. I’ve run that version, and it is fun. Turr tends to die though, Interceptors man. They blow up when something looks in their general direction.

4 minutes ago, RStan said:

Is the cut off for Ace + mini swarm need to require that "mini swarm" to be 4 ships to make a minimum total of 5 ships? Does it depend on percentage of uniques vs generics if the "mini swarm" is only 3 ships? Obi + 3 ARCs feels like Ace + mini swarm, it's just that the mini swarm is based on a beefy ship that can only fit 3. Even though I listed it originally, Poe + 3 As feels less like an Ace + Miniswarm because 2 of the As are just pocket aces and the last A is a generic that just fits. @Ablazoned is Wat really an Ace though? I see him as support and additional firepower in turn 2 of engagement.

I kinda think "pocket ace" is not terribly different from a mid-beef generic. They're expected to succeed in roughly the same number of situations, but they're good at different situations, and they succeed in different ways. And of course they're roughly the same points.

Did I reply twice in almost the same way to the same comment?

WTF is wrong with me?

The ace+generic lists are tons of fun and thematic. Really, the classification is "Endgame piece plus efficient combat ships whose goal is to die while getting the endgame piece to a favorable endgame."

I think it becomes a "Salad" instead of "Ace+Filler" when you have a mix of uniques instead of a mix of low-init generics. The non-ace ships in those lists have a slightly different goal of efficient trading instead of getting the endgame piece to the end. If something happens to Vader in Imperial Salad, Countdown or Vermeil can seal an endgame, assuming you made Vader trade favorably.

As to which ones best? If we could easily tell that, it wouldn't be an interesting archetype, right? It really depends on what the opposing list is, too. Some will be better vs swarms, opposing aces with bigger bids, etc.

4 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Did I reply twice in almost the same way to the same comment?

WTF is wrong with me?

It's multiple choice. I like it. Both are good choices.

I'm attempting to find key metaphysical differences.

4 minutes ago, pheaver said:

I think it becomes a "Salad" instead of "Ace+Filler" when you have a mix of uniques instead of a mix of low-init generics. The non-ace ships in those lists have a slightly different goal of efficient trading instead of getting the endgame piece to the end. If something happens to Vader in Imperial Salad, Countdown or Vermeil can seal an endgame, assuming you made Vader trade favorably.

I think you could say the same about, for example, Fenn + 3 Zealots. The Zealots are perfectly capable of bullying many kinds of ships if Fenn was traded for, say, a Jedi.

More specifics lists:

36 minutes ago, RStan said:

@Ablazoned is Wat really an Ace though? I see him as support and additional firepower in turn 2 of engagement. 

*Shrug* probably not? Would Grievous count? It's a really different list at that point but Grievous is in a relatively mobile platform, I only at I4.

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

Anakin Skywalker (60)
R4-P17 (5)
Delta-7B (18)
Afterburners (6)

104th Battalion Pilot (42)

104th Battalion Pilot (42)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

IMO

I agree, krayts on top.

So is a 3 ship Ace style list a la Squad of Legends considered a Salad list? Or do Salad lists also include another piece like Hask or Wampa or Bastian that isn't a closer but rather is an efficient role-player? Does it even matter?

I actually suspect that it does matter but only a little. Getting strong value out of a Bastian or Hask can be the difference between winning and losing, give the closer Ace some breathing room in a lot of matchups. All of the factions (in Hyperspace at least) except maybe Scum has a solid option that sees play every once and again with like Horton for Rebels (some people might consider Wedge in this place) and Scorch or Null for FO. Scum I guess has Seevor.

But whether or not it actually matters outside of creating cross-faction groups and seeing if some broad archetype is more successful than others is debatable, especially considering that the amount of data we ever get on a particular metagame snapshot probably isn't scientific anyway.

There is so much difference between many of these squads that in most cases I doubt the usefulness of attempting to create categories for them. The brain cycles are more productively spent figuring out the specifics in front of you rather than worrying about which label to stick on it (especially when the label doesn't carry much useful info).

I'm going to run Boba/Emon but I feel so wrong, yet so right.

As the person that flew 7B Obi and 3 ARCs at Hyperspace Qualifier at Adepticon:

ARCs are great at being tanky and getting in the way. They hit hard. Obi as an i5 3 force arc dodger is a solid flanker. Doesn't do anything fancy but doesn't really need too.

12 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Ok this is awesome....

Poe + Lulo + Talli + A/Bastian
Fenn + ZZZ
Soontir + Howl/Iden 4 or Bombers or Strikers
Vader + Howl/Iden 4 or Bombers or Strikers
Kylo + BD + Scorch + Longshot
Obi + 5 Torrents
Ani + Arc + Arc + Torrent
Obi + Arc + Arc + Arc
Luke + 3 As

I think my favorite is Kylo BD/Scorch/Longshot.

Ok so the Kylo + 3 looks really interesting. How have you got the loadout on these 4?