Just now, Sunitsa said:

It will only change the oppressive things to others, with the addition of having way less options to choose from.

Also so far the real oppressive thing seems to be Boba which is unscathed and very present in a 2e format...

There’s a points rebalance coming in Jan.

but to extended (or not) - I simply find a smaller card pool more enjoyable.

further, a meta that evolves, via ship and point changes, is fundamentally more interesting than a static pool that grows slightly with the addition of a new wave.

lastly - the 4 new factions will be at a dramatic ship deficit for years. They won’t be playing extended - they’ll be playing second edition against everyone else’s extended. Fun.

2.0 has been really good, but man I’m pretty out on extended. If that’s the main format, that is truly unfortunate for us all (including FFG)

Boba isn't oppressive... he is made more powerful by a handful of under-costed upgrades, but there is a lot of stuff in the game already that just batters him.

Poor Boba gets super sad at 3xwing torp lists for instance.

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

There’s a points rebalance coming in Jan.

Isn't that true for extended too?

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

but to extended (or not) - I simply find a smaller card pool more enjoyable.

And that's a fair and understandable feeling. You prefer a smaller environment, I'd rather have more choices

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

further, a meta that evolves, via ship and point changes, is fundamentally more interesting than a static pool that grows slightly with the addition of a new wave.

I'm not following: your definitions are true for both format

Extended will be a meta that evolves, via ship and point changes.

2e will have a static pool that grows slightly with the addition of a new wave.

You can switch "extended" with "2e" freely here and you would still describing both.

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

lastly - the 4 new factions will be at a dramatic ship deficit for years. They won’t be playing extended - they’ll be playing second edition against everyone else’s extended. Fun.

And why this should matter? As long as there would be a good number of different viable archetypes to play (which I know it's a big assumption to make, but we have to make this assumption for 2e too), why should this be a problem? They will always be behind in ships numbers in 2e too anyway.

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

2.0 has been really good, but man I’m pretty out on extended. If that’s the main format, that is truly unfortunate for us all (including FFG)

Already burned out? Wow, how many games did you have so far?!?

While writing this answer I realized the only difference between extended and 2e enthusiasts is the former prefer a large pool to choose from the latter a smaller one

3 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

Boba isn't oppressive... he is made more powerful by a handful of under-costed upgrades, but there is a lot of stuff in the game already that just batters him.

Poor Boba gets super sad at 3xwing torp lists for instance.

And what's the difference for Redline and Whisper exactly? 3xwing torp lists should melt them even harder than boba...

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Why are 7 TIEs in 2nd ed bad?

Its not bad. Luke, Boba, and Norra are still pretty tough. The absence of trajectory sim alone makes the 2e Ties a little less nervous.

12 hours ago, gennataos said:

I can't get anyone here to care about it. No one. I gave up.

Between this thread and talking to people in person, I'm pretty sure most of the anti 2e people are just imperial glue eaters who don't want thier trajectory sims, phantoms, and Sloane's taken away.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Its not bad. Luke, Boba, and Norra are still pretty tough. The absence of trajectory sim alone makes the 2e Ties a little less nervous.

I'll have a 2ed tournament tomorrow, and I would really like to bring 7 TIEs. But I won't because flying 7 ships melts my brain and, as you say, the most popular ships have builtin counters against the swarm.

How many shots does it take to bring down Boba? I assume he has 2 ships at R1 because I don't get to decide, and 2 focus tokens because Han+Perceptive.

15 Shots?! Am I doing this wrong? So that's 3 turns if I don't lose a ship, but I will, so... nope.

I just want to play whatever format FFG can most aggressively and easily balance.

16 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

How many shots does it take to bring down Boba? I assume he has 2 ships at R1 because I don't get to decide, and 2 focus tokens because Han+Perceptive.

15 Shots?! Am I doing this wrong? So that's 3 turns if I don't lose a ship, but I will, so... nope.

If some of those shots are at range 1, then no, somewhere between 15 and 7.

7 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

Between this thread and talking to people in person, I'm pretty sure most of the anti 2e people are just imperial glue eaters who don't want thier trajectory sims phantoms and Sloane's taken away.

Honestly, I think people, in general, just want to play with all their toys.

My more mean-spirited viewpoint, though, is they’re just being unimaginative. It’s expressed in the evolving Extended format meta as well. They default to low-hanging fruit, obviously strong choices and don’t really explore beyond that.

My even more mean-spirited viewpoint is that most people don’t want to play this interesting game where the victor is primarily determined by skill which they claim to want to play. They really just want to point at stuff with little to no risk/consequence, blow it up and feel really proud about it.

20 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

thier trajectory sims phantoms

I'm out

53 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

I'm not following: your definitions are true for both format

Extended will be a meta that evolves, via ship and point changes.

You can switch "extended" with "2e" freely here and you would still describing both.

While writing this answer I realized the only difference between extended and 2e enthusiasts is the former prefer a large pool to choose from the latter a smaller one

That's not true, or at least overly simplistic a characterization.

That would be akin to saying vintage or modern magic formats are basically the same as standard. Yes, there are more cards, but the formats fundamentally encourage different play styles, and players.

53 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

2e will have a static pool that grows slightly with the addition of a new wave.

While I have sounded the "second edition format" drum for awhile, that was before FFG confirmed that the "hyperspace format" will exist, and be curated selection of ships/upgrades in each hyperspace, and be different for each season.

This sounds way cooler than just a second edition format - it's analogous to actual magic standard format. That's great.

53 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Already burned out? Wow, how many games did you have so far?!?

This isn't any of your business, but I will partially reply: I am not burned out - I simply do not like/enjoy extended. I actively want to play more x-wing, but since it's extended, that actually dampens my interest considerably.

The format feels far more like a card game than a miniatures game, where synergy tends to be amplified far higher than in a more limited card pool.The card interactions are high, and thus even with balance changes, it's far more likely to turn into a whack-a-mole in terms of balancing.

Player2072913 phrased it well already:

2 hours ago, player2072913 said:

Fewer ships -> Easier to balance.

Reduced power level ->Easier to balance.

Better balance -> 'Skill' contributes more to the outcome of a game than list building.

I seem to win ~2/3rds of my extended games, but lose ~2/3rds of my 2e games. So in my limited experience, you win in 2e by being better than your opponent, but in extended it's generally good enough to just bring the right stuff.

What's funny is, given that you want to play 3Bs and Wedge, it appears we want to play the same game as each other: one that rewards maneuvering ships and strategic thinking. However, for months, we have not agreed on almost anything: you loved 1.0, why I hated it. 2.0 came out, and it's so fundamentally different from 1.0 that I think it's great, and you dreaded it all the way until recently.

You defend extended, and the idea of extended (like, until wave 3, when the 6th and 7th factions are included, we can all agree a limited pool would be too limited), whereas I look forward to hyperspace/second edition "plus" (so resistance and first order can play more than 1-2 ships) with great interest, and am basically trying to buy time/tread water until then.

Basically, we keep disagreeing, but I can't figure out why?

1 minute ago, svelok said:

If some of those shots are at range 1, then no, somewhere between 15 and 7.

assuming 1 block and 1 r1 shot, it would drop to maybe 13 as the average damage would almost increase by 1? Unless Boba blasts the r1 out of the sky. Two r1 shots drops it to 11? So with that thought process, the correct approach is to try for R1 with the whole swarm?

Also, worth noting since it's all text, @Sunitsa - my above post was written matter-of-factly, with a slight hint of confusion. No sarcasm or malice. (since sometimes it comes off that way).

13 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Honestly, I think people, in general, just want to play with all their toys.

My more mean-spirited viewpoint, though, is they’re just being unimaginative. It’s expressed in the evolving Extended format meta as well. They default to low-hanging fruit, obviously strong choices and don’t really explore beyond that.

My even more mean-spirited viewpoint is that most people don’t want to play this interesting game where the victor is primarily determined by skill which they claim to want to play. They really just want to point at stuff with little to no risk/consequence, blow it up and feel really proud about it.

We've pointed out time and again that there was never that much variety in first edition.

I saw someone above say they think the meta will be stale for a year in 2e. Ffs we're getting two new factions this month and if we're reading the tea leaves right from the wave kit prize support and the fact that physical models are at trade shows, two more by q1 2019, but somehow the meta is stale and solved?

People in general absolutely don't want to bet on themselves and won't. I worry THAT more than anything will drive people away from 2e

39 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

While I have sounded the "second edition format" drum for awhile, that was before FFG confirmed that the "hyperspace format" will exist, and be curated selection of ships/upgrades in each hyperspace, and be different for each season.

This sounds way cooler than just a second edition format - it's analogous to actual magic standard format. That's great.

I'm one of the people who defends Extended, but I 100% agree with you that a curated list of ships/upgrades is a really interesting concept. If they don't screw it up. Which they probably will for the first season. But hopefully not.

I don't like 2E format as much, but that is probably because I enjoy the list-tweaking part of these types of games. Magic destroyed my homebrew soul a decade ago, but I still take great satisfaction in making slight tweaks to "metagame" staple lists and bringing something competitive but still with a saucy little change. 2E doesn't really present me with as many of those opportunities. Lately, though I only own Imperial ships I've been Rebel list building because the space there is so interesting right now.

And possibly the biggest reason for me not being in on 2E? I don't really enjoy the ships Imperial has right now and don't really want to drop the cash on four Fangs without a tournament I was going to take them to.

None, absolutely none of this is meant to put down 2E as a format. There are a variety of factors that prevent me from being particularly interested in it right now, and I think that the Hyperspace format will fix most of those issues.

1 hour ago, catachanninja said:

Between this thread and talking to people in person, I'm pretty sure most of the anti 2e people are just imperial glue eaters who don't want thier trajectory sims, phantoms, and Sloane's taken away.

Or its just people that don't want to play mirror matches all the time, or people that like list building (hur hur architects), or people that do enjoy playing particular ships (which of course is only okay if they want to play their favorite movie ships), or as others have mentioned have a lot of ships and want to play formats that allow them to reach into their collection. Or like me, their collections are extremely limited and they don't really like the options they have available to them.

We don't know what the Hyperspace format will look like, probably won't until *maybe* FO and Resistance are available. The "main format" for the more accessible tournaments has already been announced as this Hyperspace format so that should at least for now resolve that debate.

The System Opens will be Extended, and I'd bet cash dollars that if you wanted to go to a System Open and not play Extended there would be ample side events.

These formats can co-exist just fine.

3 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

The System Opens will be Extended, and I'd bet cash dollars that if you wanted to go to a System Open and not play Extended there would be ample side events.

Unrelated to the rest of of you said - what masochist would go to a system open to not play the main event??

56 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

We've pointed out time and again that there was never that much variety in first edition.

For imperial lists (% of imperial lists containing at least 1 X)

• 41% contain a phantom
• 39% contain a punisher
• 38% contain a interceptor
• 28% contain a lambda
• 25% contain a bomber

For Rebel lists (% of rebel lists containing at least 1 X)

• 63% contain an x-wing
• 13% contain an attack shuttle
• 13% contain a hwk
• 13% contain a y-wing

For Scum lists (% of scum lists containing at least 1 X)

• 27% contain a firespray (coruscant numbers included so likely this goes up)
• 20% contain a fang
• 20% contain a starviper
• 18% contain an escape craft
• 18% contain a hwk

ain't no such thing as a V A R I E D M E T A.

Quote

People in general absolutely don't want to bet on themselves and won't. I worry THAT more than anything will drive people away from 2e

People who don't wan to be good and just want good results will find the most broken thing they can and find it, no matter what the format. I think people just like the idea that you can fly whatever you want/your favorite ship in extended, even if that's not really true. It's the optics.

...although i get why extended is great for casual players who just want to throw the kitchen sink on the board.

Also not getting the extended hate, at least not at this juncture. There hasn't even been a single points change pass yet and we're already declaring it hopeless? There are a handful of problem cards, some of which just need a points change and some of which just need to be pointsed out of existence. You guys just berated Dee for claiming the meta was solved (I agree, it isn't), but now the whole format is solved to the point that we need something beyond the unprecedented shakeup that's coming in Jan? Magic desperately needed rotation because certain card combos were first turn auto wins. We don't have that problem here, not even close. Or certain cards were simply undercosted and they couldn't change them, but we have a mechanism to solve that which we haven't even had the chance to employ yet. Just tossing everything, both good and bad, out seems both premature and extreme at this point.

I like playing a different list every night, I like playing against a different list every night and right now extended is providing that for me. Why would I want to move to a world where everyone is playing XXY/XXX, Boba/Fenn/Lando, or TIES with an optional side of Vader? Because that's all I see in 2e. Now maybe Hyperspace format will be better than that simply by dint of having more, but until we see it and can actually judge it on the merits how can any of us say it will be better than extended? Since cards don't exist in a vacuum how much faith do we actually have in that curated list balance wise until 6 months have passed and they have a chance to adjust points costs?

I'm also not convinced that all of the factions need ship parity. I could easily see the Resistance list du jour being 2 T-70s and a bomber or the FO's being a Silencer and 2 SFs just for examples. Which if that's the only list they have that's competitive is a bit boring but hardly a reason to make all the other factions equally limited to match. As long as they have a competitive list, and points can certainly make them competitive, then I really don't see the problem. Having said all that I'm cool with alt format, I think they could be interesting and periodically provide new fun meta puzzles to solve but I look at them as just that, alt formats not the main one.

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Unrelated to the rest of of you said - what masochist would go to a system open to not play the main event??

I mean, if they hated Extended that much. I've played side events at SCG Opens before instead of playing the main event.

Considering the vastly smaller population that X-wing has versus Magic, I think that the System Opens, which are the more rare event, are Extended and the more common, accessible events will be the new format is a fine choice.

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Also not getting the extended hate, at least not at this juncture. There hasn't even been a single points change pass yet and we're already declaring it hopeless? There are a handful of problem cards, some of which just need a points change and some of which just need to be pointsed out of existence. You guys just berated Dee for claiming the meta was solved (I agree, it isn't), but now the whole format is solved to the point that we need something beyond the unprecedented shakeup that's coming in Jan? Magic desperately needed rotation because certain card combos were first turn auto wins. We don't have that problem here, not even close. Or certain cards were simply undercosted and they couldn't change them, but we have a mechanism to solve that which we haven't even had the chance to employ yet. Just tossing everything, both good and bad, out seems both premature and extreme at this point.

Actually, my complaint is that I dislike the wide-open format, and think the lists that dominate are more card-game than miniatures game. And it will always tend to that extreme as more cards are allowed.

We can (and should) adjust points. But that doesn't meant I will like extended, philosophically.

4 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I'm also not convinced that all of the factions need ship parity. I could easily see the Resistance list du jour being 2 T-70s and a bomber or the FO's being a Silencer and 2 SFs just for examples. Which if that's the only list they have that's competitive is a bit boring but hardly a reason to make all the other factions equally limited to match. As long as they have a competitive list, and points can certainly make them competitive, then I really don't see the problem. Having said all that I'm cool with alt format, I think they could be interesting and periodically provide new fun meta puzzles to solve but I look at them as just that, alt formats not the main one.

I guess I disagree on this point. Ship parity is an ideal that can be pretty easily implemented, and worth doing.

I didn't even play during the original scum introduction, but I member how that went. Hi JMKs! You saved scum!

3 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

I mean, if they hated Extended that much. I've played side events at SCG Opens before instead of playing the main event.

Considering the vastly smaller population that X-wing has versus Magic, I think that the System Opens, which are the more rare event, are Extended and the more common, accessible events will be the new format is a fine choice.

I mostly agree. I'm just sad I have to wait until March for things to get going. But unplugged was so close, and I haven't attended anything in so long that I wanted to do something before March (and, sadly, the Spring hyperspace window is in a bad time window for me, personally, which increases the chance that I may not be able to attend many/any hyperspace events that window. When faced with "nothing until March, and possibly longer" vs "do this one extended and get to hang out with friends for a weekend" I chose the latter. This time).

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

I mostly agree. I'm just sad I have to wait until March for things to get going. But unplugged was so close, and I haven't attended anything in so long that I wanted to do something before March (and, sadly, the Spring hyperspace window is in a bad time window for me, personally, which increases the chance that I may not be able to attend many/any hyperspace events that window. When faced with "nothing until March, and possibly longer" vs "do this one extended and get to hang out with friends for a weekend" I chose the latter. This time).

Ah, yeah. I'm glad I cut out time to play at Crossroads and I think it's real unfortunate that the next scheduled event that I know exists within my sphere of attendance is Adepticon. Weeknight things are kind of out of the question until April for me, I shoot in a pool league and my wife plays darts a different night so the weeknights are either busy or family time. My wife is super awesome and is fine with me doing weekend things with friends though so I wish there was a weekend event every month that I had the option to go to.

The reason I do not like 2nd ed as much at the moment is the lack of A-wings/Interceptors/Phantoms/E-Wings/TIE Adv v1. You know, the fun easy stuff, depending on your cynicism honesty.

And I mainly mean A-wings. I would immediately bring 5 tomorrow if it was legal, no question asked.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

The reason I do not like 2nd ed as much at the moment is the lack of A-wings/Interceptors/Phantoms/E-Wings/TIE Adv v1. You know, the fun easy stuff, depending on your cynicism honesty.

And I mainly mean A-wings. I would immediately bring 5 tomorrow if it was legal, no question asked.

I played with an A-Wing for the first time ever last weekend (Arvel, in a six named ship Rebel swarm) and he was SUPER FUN. He also got cut from the next iteration of that list

I'm pretty checked out with extended as well. Left 1.0 to see everybody still playing the same game of throwing bombs and easy double modified ordnance. You have sloan lists telling people that they are punished for playing the game, and you have people trying to tell me that redline and death rain aren't just cheaper 1.0 nyms living in a 2.0 world. January cannot come soon enough imo.