riotmaker said:

This is a card game, not a fighting game

Tagrineth said:

Quoted for truth. Mill should come back stronger (you can mill with Nina right now, it's just real hard to do) then it currently is. If not Mill, then at least an alternative win condition.

B-Rad said:

Mill should be hard to do. T2-T3 decking is unacceptable.

Homme Chapeau said:

yeah options in a card game is never a bad thing......said option cant just plainly be easier then the other though everything has to be balanced in one way or another

and they shouldnt try and print cards to do this if they are going to nerf them into being unplayable because it just takes up space for something that could in fact have been useful otherwise

Da_ghetto_gamer said:

Bingo. I've been wanting a character that "burned" others for ages (hell I made that with Mitsurugi way back in 2007). I got that in Zhao Daiyu, but it's hard to make work. I'll strive to do that.

Homme Chapeau said:

Same here i hope zhao gets her needed pieces in the next few sets cuz ive invested alot of time into those cards

riotmaker said:

It's called submission fighting. If you look at the UFc/judo/jijitsu you'll see plenty of fights where people don't punch/kick each and some how someone wins the fight.
I look at mill like I look at subs... it's not pretty it's still technically a win due to ...

B-Rad said:

I think something like over the edge( I am not sure if it is the right name of the card from SC 1) but something like a ring out would be awesome for an alternative win condition.

sir_shajir said:

Well, many games refer to getting milled out as "exhaustion".

Tagrineth said:

yeah like...this person is too tired to fight anymore and you win by default.....

sir_shajir said:

I'd look at that as vit loss due to card effects.

Milling is going for the decision.

**** mill. It shouldn't exist in OUR game.

It could exist...if we weren't so desperately trying to emulate FIGHTING games.

Sure, there are turtlers and "keep-away" characters, which is why they get effects such as damage reduction, difficulty-raising, and CCHax to try and emulate that.

However, Milling is a card game concept, not a fighting game one. Now, sure, this IS a card game...

...but it's based off something else.

Now, I know, we had Penny Arcade. But, tell me, did Penny Arcade have attack cards? It did? Ok, then my point stands, this is supposed to be reminiscent of fighting games.

Mill is a concept simply not meant for our game.

Another point people have tried to raise is "why not make milling attack-oriented?"

Because if your deck is attack-oriented, then you aren't playing mill. Trust me, even if every card in your deck has an effect of "if your attack deals damage, your opponent discards X off the top of their deck" there is no middle ground. There is no "balanced". At that point, you're either sh*tty (see every single Darkstalkers mill attack), or you're absolutely **** busted.

That's why Mill can't work, and trust me, I've designed so many mechanics in my fan folder, including aggressive milling. The way I attempted to balance it was make attacks and support that cause both players to gain life while at the same time mill your opponent. It was indeed fun, but unfortunately, Life Gain has gained (no pun intended) notoriety that I happen to agree with, and while my life gain was relatively balanced, I just thought to myself each match, "wow, why am I even playing attacks to mill the opponent when I could play attacks to KILL the opponent?"

Games were fun, but they were longer in an unnecessary way, because now I've got a character who turtles, but he doesn't kill quick enough. It was like playing an even more annoying Lu Chen, and really, Lu Chen is balanced because he CAN'T kill quickly, and when the day comes that Lu Chen CAN kill, he's going to be everywhere, I assure you.

Anyways, mill doesn't need to exist. I know seeing mill go the way of teh dinos is depressing since we're so used to Yun-Seong and Bishamon brokensauce, but hey, I don't get my Stance keyword, so you guys don't get your Mill =p.

Seriously, Steve Fox is the extent of how "turtly" I want our game to become, and Stand Off IMO is too good for our block. It isn't broken in every format, but in this one, it's simply too much. Like I said, Steve is as far as I'd like to see redux, or any type of stall go. Mill we don't need, and I'm glad James seems to agree with me.

Penny Arcade had mill, in fact it had one of the best mill cards this game has seen. Incidentally, it was an attack too, but if you were milling with it, it never dealt damage.

It's a **** card game, it shouldn't be restricted to only one win conditon. Real fighting games have three win conditions by default - defeat, judge, and ringout. Right now the only win condition we're technically "allowed" to play toward is defeat. The only "ringout" character (Hilde) effectively achieves her "ringout" by killing her opponent outright. There's no actual game rule relating to "judge", only the tournament rule of having a round timer which we're trying to AVOID using as a win condition.

Tagrineth said:

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this, Tag.

ROTBI said:

Go play SC4... You can ring out with Hilde with yer eyes close.

B-Rad said:

LOL, I have. I didn't know he was talking about the actual game, hence my question.

Yeah, I was referring to how Hilde plays in SC4 - if you aren't trying to score ringouts with her, you're probably losing. Her Enhance was meant to simulate that.

Tagrineth said:

This is why I say mill is the equivalent of going for the decision. In KoF XI, the judging wasn't only done on life left so milling could be seen as that type of judging.

Also, I hear people complaining about the lack of mill but no people complaining about the lack of vit loss effects other than me. Burn is awesome. Burn is not aggro.

Homme Chapeau said:

I agree Burn deserves a place in our game just as much as mill....i look at it not only from a fighting perspective but from a card game one as well i know people out there that play this game because its a card game and not just because of the fighting aspect i love its fast paced action and the decision making so much that id play it even if all the characters were made up

Da_ghetto_gamer said:

I can safely say I wouldn't if only because there would have been ZERO demos around here, and I would simply not have heard about it. And considering every aspect of my social life involves UFS at some point, that's sayin' something.

Burn, in UFS, makes sense. Mill does not.

Even if I did, like I said, it's just too hard to regulate mill. If you try to tell me "they can make balanced, non-attacking mill", all I'm gonna tell you is, "I don't want decks that don't run attacks."

Every single deck in this game should run orange, and while Zi Mei is a big offender of the norm, she is hurt heavily by Mark of the Beast and, more famously, Undisputed Ruler.

As for "ring-out" or any other type of automatic win condition, hey, I completely agree! I loved the idea of Close to the Edge, and even later, failed attempts, such as Knocked Out, Soul Hive, etc.

I don't mind there being such ways of killing that don't necessarily involve attacks killing such as Knocked Out and the Like, but once again, they need to have a certain balance and theme that, in this game, the extent we've already seen in Hilde, who, while many aren't giving her the time of day, Hilde is absolutely A tier and can top any event easily.

So, once again, no mill. NPE can be saved for Magic. I don't want to sit across from an opponent and grumble, "Ugh, another deck that just hides behind a wall and kills me slowly. Great." In real fighting games, idiots who try to ride the clock and stall for time never win (yes, even MVC2 Storm turtlers who just ride the sky with her fly glitch).

I love how at the first mention of mill, people start getting their panties in a bunch, completely ignoring the other two cards I suggested:

What do you guys think of these?

*sigh* re-print threads =/

As a Yoshitora player, I'm more than familiar with those two cards.

Impetuous shouldn't be reprinted. It's what Memories that Stain the Armor is for. It's a balanced Impetuous.

As for Yoshitora, they're never going to reprint characters, I promise you, and if they do, it wouldn't be him. As for a useless hypothetical, he'd be OK off Evil and Life. Evil gives him Wonderworld to draw out of his handsize, Life gives him Leaping Snack Pack and Chi Disruptor.

Postman197865 said:

No on both counts. Impetuous is too strong for B4, and I don't see why we should reprint characters.

Impetuous isn't too strong, but we already have Memories that Stain its Armor, which while not identical, is pretty close.