This type of post is why I refuse to play in a tournament (Store Championship or otherwise) in which I am a TO. Even if his intent was to be fair, and he truly tried to do his best to be impartial, it is impossible for some or all of the participants to view it that way if the TO in question has any amount of success.

A simple solution so no one thinks you're being unfair is to keep all information in the open.

Post rankings after each round. Be open about how everything is being decided. Stick to the rules.

The TO should literally have 0 say in who plays who throughout the tournament.

After the random pairings for the first round, everything is in the hands of the pre-set rules for determining swiss round pairings.

Even if you follow the rules to the letter, if you hide what you're doing and it seems to favor you, this is what happens.

The source of the problem in this whole thread is NOT the fact that the TO participated.

It's that he wasn't a good TO.

TO competing in a store championship .. NO!!

The TO should remain completely impartial. Sadly, to ensure this sad tale of woe isn't repeated .. can only be achieved if TO is a non-player.

I'm in agreement. Even with a backup TO, there is too much room for shenanigans.

I disagree. TOs are not paid. It's going to take more than a few nice tokens to keep a knowledgeable player out of the game and solving (mostly whinny) disputes for 8+ hours. It is often a thankless job and rarely does anyone on this forum take the time to start a post with the title "Wow! What a great TO this tournament had!" You want this game to go to hell in a hand basket quick? Run the TOs off and let the players solve their own disputes.

I cannot disagree with this post more. I frequently TO and in many cases would rather TO and facilitate then play myself. Sure, there is always an issue and sure sometimes you feel less than appreciated (although the players in my local area do a great job of saying thanks, but maybe I am just lucky!) but in the end, as many have brought up, Store Championships and even Regionals are not the end of the world to miss out on. I am an exceptionally competitive person, and I can still manage sitting out a couple times a year to ensure the tournament is run well and everyone enjoys it, at least to the best of my ability.

If you have trouble finding people to do similar, then the problem is your community. Would all of your players rather let the game die then, at the very least, rotate who runs the tournaments? If so, that seems horribly selfish. It is sad to me that no one is willing to step up for their friends/fellow players.

I, for one, do not expect or require to be paid to run these kinds of events. Honestly, its more fun then you think!

This type of post is why I refuse to play in a tournament (Store Championship or otherwise) in which I am a TO. Even if his intent was to be fair, and he truly tried to do his best to be impartial, it is impossible for some or all of the participants to view it that way if the TO in question has any amount of success.

A simple solution so no one thinks you're being unfair is to keep all information in the open.

Post rankings after each round. Be open about how everything is being decided. Stick to the rules.

The TO should literally have 0 say in who plays who throughout the tournament.

After the random pairings for the first round, everything is in the hands of the pre-set rules for determining swiss round pairings.

Even if you follow the rules to the letter, if you hide what you're doing and it seems to favor you, this is what happens.

The source of the problem in this whole thread is NOT the fact that the TO participated.

It's that he wasn't a good TO.

I agree, but it all started with his participation. If he had sat out, then this post would not have had the spark that led to all the later problems.

Likewise, it is very difficult to appear 100% impartial even if you are correct, and this problem is magnified tenfold if you participate and have "a stake in the game". People want to win, and it is difficult to separate your desire to win from unbiased decision making even if it is in subtle ways.

I hold that IMO, the best thing you can do is sit out. Sure, you may not be seen as completely fair depending on the situation/questions that come up, but you will at least be doing all you can to minimize issues.

If you have trouble finding people to do similar, then the problem is your community . Would all of your players rather let the game die then, at the very least, rotate who runs the tournaments? If so, that seems horribly selfish . It is sad to me that no one is willing to step up for their friends/fellow players.

What? Those are some pretty wide, sweeping accusations right there...

We'd rather play in the few tournaments we have than sit on the side lines and watch other people play... and that makes us "horribly selfish" and is a "problem" with our community??

Exaggerating a little maybe?

And, you do realize your comment can be totally flipped around, right?

If your players are unable to act as impartial TOs in an event they're participating in, then the problem is your community. Would your players rather win the tournament they're TOing than be fair and let everyone have fun? If so, that seems horribly selfish of them. It is sad to me that no one is able to be impartial and fair to their friends/fellow players.

This was my first store championship and my first time ever playing X-Wing in the area. I don't personally know any of the players nor the TO, and I'm not very well versed in how pairings and scoring and such are supposed to work. All I can speak to is the 4th point, about the final 4 pairing. I have no idea where I was ranked in the final 4, but I had played and beaten 2 of the other 3 in the top 4, and I played (and lost to) the only other top 4 player. That might explain the pairings, so I wouldn't play the same guy twice? I dunno.

Everyone I met seemed pretty nice, including the TO (who did run proxies, now that I think about it, so I guess I can speak to 2 points). I had a good time, and I am kinda bummed to see all the hard feelings this event has produced. I don't know if the TO knows the store owner, but I've been shopping at that store for years and the owner is a super-nice guy, and I don't think he deserves any heat for how things went down.

I would like to point out that despite everything, I still had a good time overall and the vast majority of the people there were very nice and fun to play with.

I'm glad to hear that you've had good experiences with the store in the past, and I'd certainly give the store another shot if there was a more experienced TO running things.

Also, congrats on top 4! That was a nasty list to fly against

I don't really understand why the tournament rules allow the TO to play but then require a 2nd TO for the event, if the real TO doesn't want to do the job, then why not make the 2nd TO the real TO so the other guy/gal can play. If the 2nd TO is knowledgable enough that they can make rulings without help from the 1st TO, they should be able to also run the rest of the tournament by themselves. I think this is a carryover from the days when X-Wing was still very niche and tournaments had to share TOs with MTG and 40K tournaments, but now X-Wing is established enough that it should be demanding it's own TO.

The players are already tasked with policing themselves and their opponents, they shouldn't also be forced to police the TO as well, the TO is supposed to have all the player's best interest in mind and supposed to be the one person in the tournament that the players can trust to be fair and impartial. Having the TO also be a competitor undermines that, and while I can understand allowing this in small casual tournaments, this shouldn't be allowed at Store Championships, even if the SC is a small one, the Regional Bye on the line is not a small prize.

I think FFG needs to reclassify Store Championships as premiere level events, because that is how a lot of people are treating them. I don't think FFG realized how much this game has grown since last year and how integral a good, fair and clear Organized Play system is to a growing game.

I TO some events and will sometimes participate. Ithink has never been an issue yet as I'm rubbish at xwing and usually just about manage to avoid the wooden spoon. Part of the trouble with xwing (if you can call it trouble) is that the game runs so smoothly due to excellent rules and the fly casual attitude of most players, and cryodex handles everything so well it can get really boring TOing an event If you don't get to play.

That said, if this guy was doing what is reported then he needs to be reminded of Wheaton's law

Transparency is a solution to many problems. If you can't show everyone the statistics that go into the pairings, you are doing it wrong. The official rules for Store Championships do allow for a TO (Judge in FFG terms) to play, as long as there is another Judge present to rule on any questions regarding the first Judge's game. I think that's reasonable depending on size. I'm going to run one this weekend, and I'm not planning on playing, but I will if we have a terrible turnout (not likely).

That guy (he's not even qualified to be called a TO) should never run an event. If that store allows him to, they should not get another Store Championship Kit. At this point, that's about all FFG can do.

If you have trouble finding people to do similar, then the problem is your community . Would all of your players rather let the game die then, at the very least, rotate who runs the tournaments? If so, that seems horribly selfish . It is sad to me that no one is willing to step up for their friends/fellow players.

What? Those are some pretty wide, sweeping accusations right there...

We'd rather play in the few tournaments we have than sit on the side lines and watch other people play... and that makes us "horribly selfish" and is a "problem" with our community??

Exaggerating a little maybe?

And, you do realize your comment can be totally flipped around, right?

If your players are unable to act as impartial TOs in an event they're participating in, then the problem is your community. Would your players rather win the tournament they're TOing than be fair and let everyone have fun? If so, that seems horribly selfish of them. It is sad to me that no one is able to be impartial and fair to their friends/fellow players.

Isn't that the textbook definition of being selfish? Putting yourself first over other people?

If you think that no one will want to TO if they can't play or be paid for doing so, I don't know what else to say.

My comment can only be flipped around if you assume that it is okay to participate in the tournaments you TO. My opinion is that you should not be allowed to do so at all, eliminating that possibility.

Your "flipped around" statement is impossible to avoid completely. If I am going to play in a tournament, then I want to win. It is frequently the case that players will do whatever it takes to win, and if you empower them to break the rules, then many will choose to do so, as the TO from the OP is accused of doing.

I am not inferring that I would cheat like that if I were playing and TO'ing, but I am saying that I actively avoid the temptation by eliminating the possibility for myself. Since no one is perfect, myself included, I suggest that this should not be possible for anyone. "A few bad apples spoil it for the bunch", as they say.

I'm a TO at my FLGS and I'd never play in one of my events, except against a player with a bye (where the result didn't matter). I certainly wouldn't be up for prizes. This is why I missed the 2014 Store Championship...I was running the event. I have to go to another store to compete (which I don't usually have time for...lol!).

Luckily one of the employees at the store stepped up and runs some cool X-Wing events when I am not. Now if he's just stop scheduling his events for days when I'm out of town. Lol!

I play home games nearly every week, so I get to play regularly.

...if the real TO doesn't want to do the job, then why not make the 2nd TO the real TO so the other guy/gal can play...

There is a second TO, in case some call needs to be made in the game the TO is participating in. With 2 TOs, this means both TOs get to play.

X-Wing is established enough that it should be demanding it's own TO.

You do realize that X-Wing's popularity and the turnout to tournaments varies wildly depending on your area?

Some places get 30+ people for a week night tournament. Other places get less than 10 people at a Store Championship on a Saturday...

In the first case, having a dedicated TO gets to be more important since there are more players, and there is more for the TO to do.

In the second case, having a full 10% of the players who show up sit out the tournament to be a dedicated TO is asking a lot...

From what I have read of his conduct from the players that were there I would say as someone who has TO'ed before he most definately needs to be reported to the store owner. Have as many players that witnessed his conduct join you in the discussion and be very detailed. If a number of players have the same story it will be enough for the ower to make his decission.

I for one would bane a player like that from all events held at my store. It is the same as loaded dice or stacking a deck. Cheating is cheating and playing with the numbers to give yourself more points is just about the worst form of cheating.

What would a real TO do if he found someone with loaded dice? Would he be welcomed back? Samething applies here. And being a TO makes it twice as bad.

Get him blacklisted!

Also the TO already gets goodies for running the event from the kit so TO's should not ever get prizes even if they are part of the event. It is only fair to the other players and theyAlready Get Prizes For Running The Event! Don't be a greedy a##bucket.

Ok, I've remained silent on this post for far too long, yet for good reason. Here's some information from yet another person who was present at the Store Championship in question, that was held yesterday.

I can absolutely confirm that the allegations indeed happened.

It is done with, and we cannot change the outcome. The only proactive approach that we have, is that of learning from mistakes. That being said, I have been in discussion with members from all of the groups involved throughout the day.

Here is what we have discussed:

1. The primary focus has been how to continue maintaining a generally positive atmosphere for all of the groups involved.

2. There will be no mention here, on any social media outlet, or in any manner, of the individual(s) involved. This also includes the shop where the event took place. We are not going to create a which hunt.

3. Steps have been taken by both groups to insure that a constant, reliable, and FAIR gaming environment is well maintained.

3. All group leaders have been educated in regards to expectations during casual play, local tournaments, and sanctioned tournaments.

4. I have been reassured that the store in question had no idea of the events as they unfolded. The store (and their community) will be handling the problem as such. Rest assured that this shop will still be visited by avid X-Wing players. The shop WILL NOT be boycotted, shunned, nor blacklisted in any fashion.

5. Some more vetted individuals who were not present on that day, have stepped up to educate the individual in proper TO etiquette. In addition, those individuals have offered some of their clubs private prize support as recompense to affected players in that tournament.

6. All affected players are in the process of being notified that this was the case of poor judgement from a small amount of individuals.



All of that being said, I would like to thank all of you for your input. Most of this has been a great help indeed. It is very comforting to know that the community is VERY active, and not ashamed to help their members.

*On a personal note, I would like to make note of the groups involved. At all points during this debacle the focus was on our community of X-Wing enthusiasts, and how we would improve despite an obstacle. At no point was there an argument that got out of control or off topic. At no point was there blatant disrespect to those involved. The focus was always on maintaining a healthy environment for our players, and it is that reason alone why I am proud to be a part of our local community.

"Nothing travels faster than the speed of light with the possible exception of bad news, which obeys its own special laws." ~Douglas Adams

In most other games (all card games)I've played competitively the to or a judge are not allowed to enter due to avoid conflicts of interest. If the store is run a an official turny then have n employee or a third party run it. Compensation at that point is between the store and TO

Yeah this guy did everything wrong that could be done. As a TO for the store I play out of this makes me mad! Our store does tournaments every 2 weeks and we did get a Store Championship this year, which we had back on Feb 7th. I have since day one played in every event, but do everything in my power to show the other players exactly what I am doing and what the standings are between rounds. I never make rulings on my games as I always get another player to make the call or we just roll off. I always get 1 or 2 random players to watch as I generate the tourney in Cryodex, when I enter the round results in, and when I generate the next round.

As for the Store Championship I actually cringed as some of the lists that were turned in. I was thinking more to myself, "I really don't wanna play against that". I wound up having to play those lists in some knock down drag out games. I made it clear before the SC started that because of how the kit this year provided extra stuff for the TO that I would be taking nothing of the remaining prize support unless I actually won and even then I would take only the plaque and card for the bye.

The SC went smooth as silk with little to no rule calls having to be made. I was completely transparent with the Cryodex info and any player was allowed to look at the standings at anytime. I did wind up winning it in a brutal final game. Since we only had 9 players everyone left with a bag and Soontir card, 2nd-5th got focus tokens, and the remaining Soontir cards were put back to be used as prize support for our regular tourneys we have since there are always some gaps between the seasonal kits.

Yeah this guy did everything wrong that could be done. As a TO for the store I play out of this makes me mad! Our store does tournaments every 2 weeks and we did get a Store Championship this year, which we had back on Feb 7th. I have since day one played in every event, but do everything in my power to show the other players exactly what I am doing and what the standings are between rounds . I never make rulings on my games as I always get another player to make the call or we just roll off . I always get 1 or 2 random players to watch as I generate the tourney in Cryodex, when I enter the round results in, and when I generate the next round .

As for the Store Championship I actually cringed as some of the lists that were turned in. I was thinking more to myself, "I really don't wanna play against that". I wound up having to play those lists in some knock down drag out games. I made it clear before the SC started that because of how the kit this year provided extra stuff for the TO that I would be taking nothing of the remaining prize support unless I actually won and even then I would take only the plaque and card for the bye.

The SC went smooth as silk with little to no rule calls having to be made. I was completely transparent with the Cryodex info and any player was allowed to look at the standings at anytime . I did wind up winning it in a brutal final game. Since we only had 9 players everyone left with a bag and Soontir card, 2nd-5th got focus tokens, and the remaining Soontir cards were put back to be used as prize support for our regular tourneys we have since there are always some gaps between the seasonal kits.

And that's how it's done!

He didn't cheat in actual game play (that I'm aware of).

This what he is accused of doing as I understand it, I can't say that he did any of these things ...

He intentionally paired himself to fly against a list that he knew would be a favorable matchup.

He intentionally paired himself against someone who lost the first round, again to provide himself a favorable matchup.

He changed the number of rounds from 4 to 3 after the first round was over. I assume he did this to make it easier for him to make the final 4 cut.

These are all cases of the TO cheating and worse abusing his authority. This can do a lot of damage to the local community which makes it worse than cheating. Plus that, anyone willing to do the things he did, is going to do similar things whenever they can. So they are most likely cheating during game play in other ways, ways that may not be so easy to notice.

If I were the store owner, I'd ban this person from ever stepping foot in my store again, just to make it clear that he will not tolerate such behavior.

Exactly with my disclaimer I said I do not side with the OP. There is no proof of these accusations and if there were here really isn't the best place to place such items. If what the OP said were true and the intentions of the TO were to win or top place in a tournament that they had rigged I agree that yes that is wrong on so many reasons.

But what do you do if the store owner left after the first round, as what happened in this case. Obviously they are close friends to leave him alone in his store without supervision

This is why it really is an issue with the store and not FFG. Yes FFG posts guidelines for TOs and FFG gives TOs full reign in their local organized events. It make sense that way on a business sense so that they don't have to employee TOs themselves which will get more expensive then the intangible benefits that will occur.

If there is a problem with a store local organized event bring it up with the store. If that doesn't work and it is seems like the store is not interested in fair play then just choose another store and when you find one invite your friends. You could contact FFG about such things but in honesty it is so trivial that it is unlikely FFG will/can do anything about it. If they are practicing bad business practices (selling tournament kits online, charging noncompetitive prices, ect) then FFG could blacklist them for sales but that is about the jest of it.

Ok, I've remained silent on this post for far too long, yet for good reason. Here's some information from yet another person who was present at the Store Championship in question, that was held yesterday.

I can absolutely confirm that the allegations indeed happened.

It is done with, and we cannot change the outcome. The only proactive approach that we have, is that of learning from mistakes. That being said, I have been in discussion with members from all of the groups involved throughout the day.

Here is what we have discussed:

1. The primary focus has been how to continue maintaining a generally positive atmosphere for all of the groups involved.

2. There will be no mention here, on any social media outlet, or in any manner, of the individual(s) involved. This also includes the shop where the event took place. We are not going to create a which hunt.

3. Steps have been taken by both groups to insure that a constant, reliable, and FAIR gaming environment is well maintained.

3. All group leaders have been educated in regards to expectations during casual play, local tournaments, and sanctioned tournaments.

4. I have been reassured that the store in question had no idea of the events as they unfolded. The store (and their community) will be handling the problem as such. Rest assured that this shop will still be visited by avid X-Wing players. The shop WILL NOT be boycotted, shunned, nor blacklisted in any fashion.

5. Some more vetted individuals who were not present on that day, have stepped up to educate the individual in proper TO etiquette. In addition, those individuals have offered some of their clubs private prize support as recompense to affected players in that tournament.

6. All affected players are in the process of being notified that this was the case of poor judgement from a small amount of individuals.

All of that being said, I would like to thank all of you for your input. Most of this has been a great help indeed. It is very comforting to know that the community is VERY active, and not ashamed to help their members.

*On a personal note, I would like to make note of the groups involved. At all points during this debacle the focus was on our community of X-Wing enthusiasts, and how we would improve despite an obstacle. At no point was there an argument that got out of control or off topic. At no point was there blatant disrespect to those involved. The focus was always on maintaining a healthy environment for our players, and it is that reason alone why I am proud to be a part of our local community.

"Nothing travels faster than the speed of light with the possible exception of bad news, which obeys its own special laws." ~Douglas Adams

I also agree heavily with the statement that the Store and its owner should not be held a fault here and it's name kept out of the threads. He does not need to lose customers do to someone else's mistakes.

This thread did do one good thing for your community, it showed that there were players that felt burned, not just the OP, and as a community you guys were able to deal with it.

I TO events regularly even the Store Championship at my FLGS. I try not to play in the events, only if the numbers are uneven. I think it's a bad idea to allow a TO to play in the events for SC.

but when they have free reign and take advantage of it like this it's completely unacceptable.

When they do things like that, they shouldn't be allowed to be a TO. They maybe shouldn't be allowed to play at all, depending on what they try to get away with when playing as just a guy.But the above story doesn't really provide a reason why a TO shouldn't be able to play at all, just why you need to be careful about who the TO is.

I will repeat myself. TOs should be able to participate in tournaments for all the reasons stated by people here. Butunder a very clear and more restrictive code of conduct.

And what's more important, FFG should have people that want to become "Judge" pass a little exam like you do in many TCGs and other tabletop games. And if you do that you give them your ID. If then too many complaints like these above are filed, they just can prevent you from organizing more official tournaments!

And what's more important, FFG should have people that want to become "Judge" pass a little exam like you do in many TCGs and other tabletop games.

They said back at Worlds I think they were working on a system like that, but I don't think anyone has heard a word about it since then.

And what's more important, FFG should have people that want to become "Judge" pass a little exam like you do in many TCGs and other tabletop games.

They said back at Worlds I think they were working on a system like that, but I don't think anyone has heard a word about it since then.

FFG is very much behind on thier involvement with thier OP system given it's formatting and the popularity of particularly Netrunner and X-wing.

Both games will draw players from up to 4-5 hours away for a Regional, with attendance reaching convention level, and there is no FFG oversight or resources made available to the venues.

This was my first store championship and my first time ever playing X-Wing in the area. I don't personally know any of the players nor the TO, and I'm not very well versed in how pairings and scoring and such are supposed to work. All I can speak to is the 4th point, about the final 4 pairing. I have no idea where I was ranked in the final 4, but I had played and beaten 2 of the other 3 in the top 4, and I played (and lost to) the only other top 4 player. That might explain the pairings, so I wouldn't play the same guy twice? I dunno.

Everyone I met seemed pretty nice, including the TO (who did run proxies, now that I think about it, so I guess I can speak to 2 points). I had a good time, and I am kinda bummed to see all the hard feelings this event has produced. I don't know if the TO knows the store owner, but I've been shopping at that store for years and the owner is a super-nice guy, and I don't think he deserves any heat for how things went down.

I would like to point out that despite everything, I still had a good time overall and the vast majority of the people there were very nice and fun to play with.

I'm glad to hear that you've had good experiences with the store in the past, and I'd certainly give the store another shot if there was a more experienced TO running things.

Also, congrats on top 4! That was a nasty list to fly against

Thanks! I hope to be able to make a few more events in the future. Hopefully I'll see you there!

After having spoken with the TO and bringing these issues to him, I can shed some light on some things as he wasn't aware of this topic or these complaints.

First he did not use proxied cards, there was one copy of each upgrade card he used and his ships were all the same upgrade wise. It is not required to have multiple copies of the same card, merely to have at least 1 for reference.

I can't speak for the 'your list won't win' comment, but coming from this person, it was likely meant in jest. He can be brusque at times but I doubt he actually meant harm to this person.

As for the matchups everything was put into X-Wing's Cryodex, and besides trying not to match up the people that had traveled together for the first round, was random, and then determined by Cryodex for subsequent pairings. He did say he messed up the cut to top 4, not having realized there was such an option in the cryodex program. He apologized several times for that, though he did say he paired based on whether people had played each other yet that day. While wrong, I can understand that thinking, mistake though it was.

As for not turning in lists, he had brought a printed list and apparently thought others would have as well. It was an oversight on his part, and his thinking at looking at the lists was apparently to make sure they were legal for the championship. He also didn't think it necessary to have score sheets with cryodex tracking everything, another oversight on his part.

The store owner had said it would be 4 rounds and then cut to top four, the TO said he had immediately corrected that saying it was 3 rounds and cut to top 4. This was announced before play began.

With the secondary TO leaving he thought it was understood that the tertiary would step in for the primary TO's games. As I understand that didn't create an issue.

All in all some mistakes were made, I would say worst of which was with the messing up of the top 4 but, that was the pairings, not that the TO had not earned top 4. As I know this person it is my belief, and he insists on this, that the pairing was a mistake and not done out of malice or wishing for an easier match up. I myself am sorry those involved have a bad taste in their mouth about this, and he has said in future he will not TO if it is going to cause issues for the players.

Sorry but yes you have to have a copy of a upgrade for each ship it is on. This was the ruling at Nationals last year. If you have VI on 3 ships you have to have 3 copies of the VI card....period.