Even if you throw out balance, and toss away the fact that any crossover ships would be so rare in the overall universe that it's not really worth the effort to create them, it would destroy the thematic faction element completely.

S&V gets away with a couple crossovers because they take them in an entirely new direction. The new upgrades make the ships play significantly different than their counterparts. They feel like S&V ships.

Throwing a TIE into the rebel lineup wouldn't have that effect. The examples being slung about are all stealth mission, so they would be the exact same ship, just with a different pilot. So it would just be crossing lines for no other reason than a few people want it. It would add nothing, while detracting plenty.

I just don't think they will.

That's fine, I'm not so sure they will either. But there's a world of difference between not thinking they will and...

You will never see a rebel lambda. I guarantee it.

Also what the Lambda offers the Imp's isn't at all the same thing either the HWK or B does the Reb's.

The B-wing is a slow heavy hitting attack platform for the same price as Omicron, and it even has crew now. The HWK is a support ship.

All this talk of 'It will never happen' is very reminiscent of the 'third faction' discussion, which we were having before GenCon.

And the arguments against the third faction were valid. Nobody saw Most Wanted coming.

Likewise, if there is to be a Rebel Lambda, it'll be in a way we totally didn't call. That being said, I'd prefer to keep faction diversity.

As for compelling reason: If there are enough people who would want to buy it, then FFG has a compelling reason to sell it.

That's very cynical. They're selling things because we'll buy them but the designers care about the game. They're not WizKids.

Which is a huge part of why they made the S&V faction which a lot of people myself included said they'd never do.

They kind of had to.

Yes, we get crossover, but rarely. Tyderium is a single ship, not a mainstay of the Rebel fleet like everything else. If the Rebels get a Lambda we're talking starbird on the upper wing, not a single plate with Chewie flying the Tyderium. If we add these crossovers we'll see a lot of them.

Personally, I think TIE fighter stealth missions and stolen Imperial shuttles are best deployed in missions, not 100 deathmatch. The desire for Tyderium is thematically based, after all.

To your first bit, it is indeed a reason.

No it's not. It was a method to get ships into a faction, ships that had a reason for being there. The same argument can be made for putting the shuttle on the Rebels side.

Your statements to the contrary don't actually prove anything.

I said that because I strongly, without a doubt in my mind, do not think they will do it.

So you admit you have no evidence to back up your claim, only opinions?

Alright I think we might have a bit of a misunderstanding here. I just want to clear things up so you can see where I'm coming from. I'm sensing some hostile vibes and I just wanna clear the air so that we can have a constructive discussion unlike some of the other threads from a few weeks ago Also I just want to clarify that I'm not trying to unequivocally prove anything. That was never my intent. I'm just saying why I don't think they'll release it. I never intended any of my statements to be interpreted as anything other than opinion.

What I'm trying to lay out in my reasoning of why they won't put out a conversion pack for Imperials or Rebels is that the very specific circumstance that caused them to release one for S&V does not exist for the Rebels and Imperials. That circumstance is that they were starting a new faction, wanted the total size of it to be comparable to Rebels and Imperials, and did not want it to cost $250+ for existing players to buy into it. The problem they were presented with was: Deliver a high number of ships at a fraction of the cost. The solution was to convert existing ships over. The rebels and imperials do not have that problem. They have plenty of ships already. Therefore, the reason for releasing a conversion pack (low-cost, many ships) does not exist for the rebels and imperials.

Now, it'd be fair to say that there were more reasons than that for releasing MW and that just because rebels and imperials have a lot of ships doesn't mean they won't do it. That's perfectly valid. But to say that my above point isn't a reason isn't right. That very powerful driving factor of 'many ships, low cost' isn't there anymore, so I think they would be much less inclined to release a conversion pack. Does that make any more sense?

Nobody saw Most Wanted coming.

I did. I figured that was a way to get the 3rd faction up to speed quickly. Release a box with some sort of conversion for existing ships. It was the only way I could see that they could bring a 3rd faction up to par for ships quickly.

I'd prefer to keep faction diversity.

I don't disagree. But faction diversity clearly isn't that big of a deal with FFG and not enough reason to keep them from making one, if they so chose.

Tyderium is a single ship, not a mainstay of the Rebel fleet like everything else.

You mean like the Millennium Falcon and Outrider? Also since when is the Lambda Shuttle a gunship in the Imperial fleet either?

Also since when is the Lambda Shuttle a gunship in the Imperial fleet either?

Since it started shooting Darth Vaders.

Just a factual note - in Mara Jade: By the Emperor's Hand, the comic by Stackpole and Zahn, she flies a Z-95 as Emperor's Hand before Endor.

Also since when is the Lambda Shuttle a gunship in the Imperial fleet either?

Look at all the guns on it.

I don't disagree. But faction diversity clearly isn't that big of a deal with FFG and not enough reason to keep them from making one, if they so chose.

I'm pretty sure it is. Just listen to the interviews. Read the Scum articles.

not enough reason to keep them from making one, if they so chose.

You keep saying words to the effect of "Won't stop them doing it if they want to" and it doesn't hold up. They can do anything if they already want to. Sun Crusher, Vong, ToR ships. All these points against FFG making a Lambda are reasons why they wouldn't choose to in the first place.

Just a factual note - in Mara Jade: By the Emperor's Hand, the comic by Stackpole and Zahn, she flies a Z-95 as Emperor's Hand before Endor.

To blend in, which again doesn't factor into X-wing's 100 starfighter engagements. Mechanically, Empire's got the TIE fighter as a swarmer and their missile carrier is the TIE bomber. Them getting Z-95s is the last thing I'd expect.

Sure it was, and I firmly believed that it would happen. They worked very hard to give those ships their own identities and play styles, which I think they largely succeeded in. I just don't see any compelling reason whatsoever to toss the rebels lambda pilots, especially given the balance issues involved. The rebels already have a support ship in the same cost range with the HWK and B-wing, and already have a ship capable of being kitted out as a buzzsaw with the B-wing. I strongly believe there is no room for it in the rebel faction.

I don't know what 'balance issue' there would be that could not be fixed by an appropriate point cost to the title card.

As for compelling reason: If there are enough people who would want to buy it, then FFG has a compelling reason to sell it.

The balance issues that I'm referring to came up in another discussion a while ago on a different thread. That is, point cost isn't the be-all-end-all of balancing that it appears to be. If they make it a high point cost then they pigeon-hole it to that one high-powered build and it won't see any play as anything else. That's something they've been actively trying to fix with other ships that have been pigeonholed, such as the Y-wing. If they make it a low point cost then they've opened up other build options but have made the buzzsaw+C3P0 option too cheap. Those are the kinds of balancing issues I'm talking about.

Also I just want to clarify that I'm not trying to unequivocally prove anything. That was never my intent. I'm just saying why I don't think they'll release it. I never intended any of my statements to be interpreted as anything other than opinion.

I can get a bit forceful from times, but that's mostly due to me enjoying a healthy debate then actually being hostile. But that doesn't mean it always comes across that way.

So if I seemed hostile, I apologize I wasn't trying to be that way.

But your above statement is completely at odds with the statement I quoted. If you are speaking about opinion, then you don't make absolute statements backed up with a guarantee.

Therefore, the reason for releasing (low-cost, many ships) does not exist for the rebels and imperials.

That doesn't change anything though. The reason for them releasing anything, is so they can sell us more plastic spaceships. So if MW sells well, which I assume it will. That alone is reason enough for them to do something like it again. Really MW is nothing more than an extension of the Aces packages we already have.

So if they did decide that they wanted a Rebel Shuttle, one way they could do that is by putting the same kind of conversion in a box that they did for MW. They could also release it as a stand alone model.

The fact that they wanted to get S&V a number of ships quickly doesn't actually change a thing, they saw the MW pack as a good way of doing that. So likewise they may see it as a good way of getting a Rebel Shuttle out there as well, because it could be a way of adding value to a box they are going to release.

The real question is, "Will they want to release a cross faction shuttle?" I could see them doing one for all 3 factions, since I'm sure a number of Pirates had stolen shuttles of their own. They may or may not. But if they do, a MW type pack is a completely valid method to use.

Look at all the guns on it.

Yes but we never actually see it shoot anything. So if you want to base your argument on theme you have to account for the fact that it's never seen as a combat vessel. Just because it has guns doesn't mean it's going to be useful in a dogfight.

And it isn't. It flies like a shuttle.

That doesn't change anything though. The reason for them releasing anything, is so they can sell us more plastic spaceships.

Once again, they're not WizKids. They'll release plastic spaceships anyway and it doesn't matter that much which, that's where the money is. The design aspect is focused on the game, not maximising profits. Otherwise they'd charge extra of higher point ships like a certain company that does only think in money.

Come on, guys. Has no one played the original X-Wing pc game? Whenever the rebel player was shot down he was picked up by a rebel lambda with a big alliance logo on the top fin. It clearly could be a rebel ship. We actually frequently use it in our private scenarios and campaigns.

The X-wing games were somewhat short in art assets. The starbird Lambda hasn't showed up elsewhere.

That being said, if FFG were to release the Lambda as a Rebel ship (I'd much rather they expand the Imperial one) it would be the starbird Lambda: a full on conversion. Not one card.

All this talk of 'It will never happen' is very reminiscent of the 'third faction' discussion, which we were having before GenCon.

And the arguments against the third faction were valid. Nobody saw Most Wanted coming.

I see what you're saying, but the prognostications against a third faction still proved to be inaccurate. There was a lot of debate about the desirability of a 3rd faction, and you're welcome to your opinions. I'd prefer to keep the concept of 'validity' as pertaining to factual accuracy rather than justifiability, but that's just me.

And, there were plenty of people rooting for a third faction over the spring and the summer. I was one of them, though I started to doubt the idea that they would introduce it.

As for compelling reason: If there are enough people who would want to buy it, then FFG has a compelling reason to sell it.

That's very cynical. They're selling things because we'll buy them but the designers care about the game. They're not WizKids.

Of course the designers care about the game. They care about it and we care about it. but I don't think there's anything perverse or cynical about a company meeting a demand. Sure, there are more long-term interests to maintain the integrity of the game, vs. a short-term get-money-quick interest, and we all hope that they do the former.

Is an adequately priced Tyderium title card really such a departure that it would break the game? No. It's just against your personal preferences. My personal preferences were against the TIE Phantom and the TIE Defender, but so what? I don't think they really damaged the brand by introducing them, even if I don't like them much.

I'm sure you could get over a Rebel Lambda as well.

Yes, we get crossover, but rarely. Tyderium is a single ship, not a mainstay of the Rebel fleet like everything else. If the Rebels get a Lambda we're talking starbird on the upper wing, not a single plate with Chewie flying the Tyderium. If we add these crossovers we'll see a lot of them.

Personally, I think TIE fighter stealth missions and stolen Imperial shuttles are best deployed in missions, not 100 deathmatch. The desire for Tyderium is thematically based, after all.

In-universe rarity is not a very good argument. There was only one Luke Skywalker in the entire Rebel fleet, yet we still have Luke Skywalker and the game would be unthinkable without him in it. I also don't think that a thematically-based desire renders the desire unjustifiable or invalid.

Once again, they're not WizKids.

That's nothing more than a straw man. I'm not saying they'll push any old thing out the door beause we'll buy it. But the reason they made the 3rd faction or the MW is at it's heart to sell us stuff. Good stuff, stuff we want, not just more crap to keep us buying like WizKids does.

MW proves they want to give us a good value for our money, they could of easily charged more for it then they did.

Which is also why they may do the same thing for a Rebel Shuttle if they ever release one, because they think it's something we want, and something that adds to the game over all.

Also I just want to clarify that I'm not trying to unequivocally prove anything. That was never my intent. I'm just saying why I don't think they'll release it. I never intended any of my statements to be interpreted as anything other than opinion.

I can get a bit forceful from times, but that's mostly due to me enjoying a healthy debate then actually being hostile. But that doesn't mean it always comes across that way.

So if I seemed hostile, I apologize I wasn't trying to be that way.

But your above statement is completely at odds with the statement I quoted. If you are speaking about opinion, then you don't make absolute statements backed up with a guarantee.

Therefore, the reason for releasing (low-cost, many ships) does not exist for the rebels and imperials.

That doesn't change anything though. The reason for them releasing anything, is so they can sell us more plastic spaceships. So if MW sells well, which I assume it will. That alone is reason enough for them to do something like it again. Really MW is nothing more than an extension of the Aces packages we already have.

So if they did decide that they wanted a Rebel Shuttle, one way they could do that is by putting the same kind of conversion in a box that they did for MW. They could also release it as a stand alone model.

The fact that they wanted to get S&V a number of ships quickly doesn't actually change a thing, they saw the MW pack as a good way of doing that. So likewise they may see it as a good way of getting a Rebel Shuttle out there as well, because it could be a way of adding value to a box they are going to release.

The real question is, "Will they want to release a cross faction shuttle?" I could see them doing one for all 3 factions, since I'm sure a number of Pirates had stolen shuttles of their own. They may or may not. But if they do, a MW type pack is a completely valid method to use.

I didn't mean for the whole guarantee thing to be taken so literally haha. I mean I obviously can't guarantee anything unless I'm the CEO of FFG (I am most certainly not, although that would be a very fun job). It was more a hyperbole of my very high confidence in my belief.

And yeah, you make a bunch of good points but the key part is that I don't think FFG ever wants to release conversion packs because of how much money we save on it since we're not buying the ships themselves. I believe that in this situation the only option was to release a conversion pack so they cut their losses and went ahead and did it. Otherwise they'd have a harder time selling S&V to people because of the price point.

Their motivation also is not purely selling us stuff. I mean it is, but throwing a shuttle in the mix is not as simple as 'put product on shelf, people give us money'. There has to be an incredibly strong focus on what that new ingredient will do to the stew, so to speak. If it's a good addition and enriches the whole thing, it'll be good for the product and succeed in making them money. If it's a bad addition that harms the game it doesn't matter how many people want it thematically, it'll tank your game and then you won't be making any more money.

The assumption being made in saying they'll do it is that they can do it in a balanced way that doesn't mess up their game. I personally think it'd be very difficult to throw the shuttle to the rebels and not have it be unbalanced to an undesirable extent. We can throw out some ideas though and put them through the gauntlet! I'd be all for that.

Alright, so let's start throwing out ideas for rebel shuttles to assess the plausibility of doing this conversion. Anyone care to go first?

Of course the designers care about the game. They care about it and we care about it. but I don't think there's anything perverse or cynical about a company meeting a demand. Sure, there are more long-term interests to maintain the integrity of the game, vs. a short-term get-money-quick interest, and we all hope that they do the former.

Is an adequately priced Tyderium title card really such a departure that it would break the game? No. It's just against your personal preferences. My personal preferences were against the TIE Phantom and the TIE Defender, but so what? I don't think they really damaged the brand by introducing them, even if I don't like them much.

I'm sure you could get over a Rebel Lambda as well.

I wouldn't be devasted by a Rebel Lambda. I just think it's phenomenally improbable unless FFG finds themselves majorly scraping the barrel. Remember they do have other design priorities.

Alright, so let's start throwing out ideas for rebel shuttles to assess the plausibility of doing this conversion. Anyone care to go first?

It'd be a bigger HWK. Shuttles tend to be support ships. I'm of the view that the HWK is the Rebel Lambda already.

In-universe rarity is not a very good argument. There was only one Luke Skywalker in the entire Rebel fleet, yet we still have Luke Skywalker and the game would be unthinkable without him in it. I also don't think that a thematically-based desire renders the desire unjustifiable or invalid.

No, but it has to be backed up with some mechanical reasoning. As for Luke, he's actually a Rebel ship.

I'll put it another way. Would it look thematically right to you for there to be as many Rebel Lambdas as Imperial ones?

It was more a hyperbole of my very high confidence in my belief.

Fair enough, I do tend to get carried away with semantic arguments from time to time. So we'll just let that whole thing go, and start over with you don't think it should or will happen.

I thought exactly the same thing about a 3rd faction for much the same reasons, and found the idea of cross faction ships even less likely. We can see how correct I was...

I don't think FFG ever wants to release conversion packs because of how much money we save on it since we're not buying the ships themselves.

Depends on...

Lets assume they decide to do a Rebel Shuttle, they have the pilots, the upgrades, ect... They also have a new pack they want to release. They may find that putting the Rebel Shuttle cards in that pack a good deal because doing so will increase the value of that pack and get people to buy more of it.

So they may come out ahead doing it that way, over releasing a new pack with a Rebel shuttle in it. I'm not saying it will happen that way. But it is a possibility.

If it's a bad addition that harms the game it doesn't matter how many people want it thematically, it'll tank your game and then you won't be making any more money.

But that assumes it's a bad addition, which none of us can really say for sure one way or the other... It may be, it may not be.

I personally think it'd be very difficult to throw the shuttle to the rebels and not have it be unbalanced to an undesirable extent.

I said the same thing about the 3rd faction...

It's possible that they might do it and it's not something that can be painted as completely ridiculous. It's a possibilility, even if it's not (in my view) a probability. I'm fairly sure FFG have plenty of other things for their release schedule.

That being said, the people saying Rebel Lambdas are a dead cert I really don't think are thinking it through at all.

No, but it has to be backed up with some mechanical reasoning. As for Luke, he's actually a Rebel ship.

I'll put it another way. Would it look thematically right to you for there to be as many Rebel Lambdas as Imperial ones?

What sort of mechanical reasoning are you talking about? Give me a frame of reference here?

No, it would not look thematically right. That's why I'm advocating for a title card.

That being said, the people saying Rebel Lambdas are a dead cert I really don't think are thinking it through at all.

I think you're engaging in false equivalency. The people arguing against the rebel lambda are expressing a certain level of certainty, which I have not seen on the pro-rebel lambda side. Unless I missed something, which you can point out to me if I did.

What would it do? What role would it serve?

That's why I'm advocating for a title card.

A title that does what? The way the game's set up means you couldn't have a title that converts an Imperial Lambda to a Rebel one (not saying FFG couldn't work around that though.) That would also give the Rebels access to Captain Yorr, Captain Kagi and Colonel Jendon.

For the Rebels to have a Lambda in tournament play they need pilot cards and a Rebel livery Lambda dial.

What would it do? What role would it serve?

A title that does what?

It would fly around (cumbersomely) and shoot at stuff. Yes, I know that the Tyderium didn't do so.

A title, that is unique, which makes the Lambda available to rebels.

It would fly around (cumbersomely) and shoot at stuff.

Are the rebels lacking ships that fly around cumbersomely and shoot at stuff?

The way the game's set up means you couldn't have a title that converts an Imperial Lambda to a Rebel one (not saying FFG couldn't work around that though.) However, that would also give the Rebels access to Captain Yorr, Captain Kagi and Colonel Jendon.

For the Rebels to have a Lambda in tournament play they need pilot cards and a Rebel livery Lambda dial. And if they're doing that, if they're giving the ship a Rebel identity, they're not going to stop at one pilot card.

I'd love to see a Tyderium title, but an Imperial one.

It was more a hyperbole of my very high confidence in my belief.

Fair enough, I do tend to get carried away with semantic arguments from time to time. So we'll just let that whole thing go, and start over with you don't think it should or will happen.

I thought exactly the same thing about a 3rd faction for much the same reasons, and found the idea of cross faction ships even less likely. We can see how correct I was...

I don't think FFG ever wants to release conversion packs because of how much money we save on it since we're not buying the ships themselves.

Depends on...

Lets assume they decide to do a Rebel Shuttle, they have the pilots, the upgrades, ect... They also have a new pack they want to release. They may find that putting the Rebel Shuttle cards in that pack a good deal because doing so will increase the value of that pack and get people to buy more of it.

So they may come out ahead doing it that way, over releasing a new pack with a Rebel shuttle in it. I'm not saying it will happen that way. But it is a possibility.

If it's a bad addition that harms the game it doesn't matter how many people want it thematically, it'll tank your game and then you won't be making any more money.

But that assumes it's a bad addition, which none of us can really say for sure one way or the other... It may be, it may not be.

I personally think it'd be very difficult to throw the shuttle to the rebels and not have it be unbalanced to an undesirable extent.

I said the same thing about the 3rd faction...

Yeah if they were to do it the only way I could see it making sense for them would be releasing it included in something else.

And I understand the past experience with the 3rd faction and not thinking they could pull it off. Out of my own personal past experience I had every bit of confidence in the third faction when it came up for discussion. They certainly had the design space for it since they could decide the doctrine (so to speak) of that faction. To me, creating the Scum & Villainy faction sounds like an easier task than trying to shove the shuttle into the rebel fleet. I just think it'd be too hard to make it have a unique role compared to the other rebel ships and balance it appropriately given the options available to it on the rebel side (my main beef is with C-3P0). It just seems redundant compared to what's already there and the two crew slots + sensor slot are concerning. The balance issue is the sticking point for me and I don't think it could be done well at all.