I don't see anything stopping them from doing so.

Effect on the metagame, faction dilution, passing up the opportunity to put that design effort into one of the many rebel shuttles in the EU, caring about theme (how many shots are there of the Tyderium dogfighting TIE fighters?) and that you've only got one pilot.

Stolen Lambda mission is fully plausible to me but I can't see it as an addition to the Rebel combat fleet.

You will never see a rebel lambda. I guarantee it.

And what evidence do you have to back that up? I mean if you're going to make guarantees you must have something to back it up with...I could quite easily see them release a pack that has Rebel cards for the Lambada along the same line as the HWK and Firespray in the Most Wanted pack. I'm not sure that they will, but I don't see anything stopping them from doing so.

Using the example of the most wanted pack is irrelevant to the discussion of cross-pollinating rebels and imperials. The conversions within most wanted served a very specific purpose of fleshing out a scum and villainy fleet of comparable size to the existing rebel and imperial fleet. They didnt do it for kicks.

The reason is because there is absolutely no need for it to happen. They will not release just one pilot for a ship especially to give rebels access to a ship that serves a specific purpose that they don't already have access to. A lambda wouldn't be game-breaking but it would certainly cause some balance issues. Stick C3-P0 on there with a FCS, gunner, and HLC. That's troubling.

Plus everything TIE Pilot mentioned.

Stolen Lambda mission is fully plausible to me but I can't see it as an addition to the Rebel combat fleet.

None of the things you lists will stop them, not if they think it's a ship that people want.

Faction Dilution... That ship has sailed already, between S&V and Wave 4. The effect on the Metagame could very well be positive. I'm not sure how many Rebel shuttles there are in the EU, but designing the cards to go with something else could be a better ROI than a new model.

Your argument about theme doesn't work... How many Lambda shuttles do we see firing on X-Wings? The lack of pilots is hardly something new either.

So really nothing there stopping them, other than your own PoV. I'm not saying your wrong, but everything you list is an opinion on why they shouldn't, not evidence on why they can't.

Using the example of the most wanted pack is irrelevant

Because you say so?

Plus everything TIE Pilot mentioned.

You mean everything I just refuted?

Let's try this another way. Describe to me how FFG will release this Rebel Tyderium.

Rather easily. The Most Wanted pack was described as a "big box" expansion. This is rather key, rather a Scum starter. FFG uses "big box" expansions in their LCGs to give huge boosts to certain factions. Instead of a new "Aces" pack, I kind of expect to see Rebel and Imperial faction "big box" versions of Most Wanted. Except, instead of converting other ships, it will have new pilots and upgrades for existing ships in the faction, and not just the ones you get miniatures for. Such a pack would be perfect for slipping in some stuff to convert a Lambda over to the Rebel side.

Though, I expect the Imperial version first, based on all the hints dropped about plans for the Advanced and Bomber.

MJ's Z-95 would more accurately fall under the 'Scum' faction.

A Scum MJ Z-95 would be awesome. I'm thinking she'd have an ability similar to Intelligence agent and a title that lets her buy the Ion cannon upgrade.

You will never see a rebel lambda. I guarantee it.

And what evidence do you have to back that up? I mean if you're going to make guarantees you must have something to back it up with...I could quite easily see them release a pack that has Rebel cards for the Lambada along the same line as the HWK and Firespray in the Most Wanted pack. I'm not sure that they will, but I don't see anything stopping them from doing so.

Using the example of the most wanted pack is irrelevant to the discussion of cross-pollinating rebels and imperials. The conversions within most wanted served a very specific purpose of fleshing out a scum and villainy fleet of comparable size to the existing rebel and imperial fleet. They didnt do it for kicks.

The reason is because there is absolutely no need for it to happen. They will not release just one pilot for a ship especially to give rebels access to a ship that serves a specific purpose that they don't already have access to. A lambda wouldn't be game-breaking but it would certainly cause some balance issues. Stick C3-P0 on there with a FCS, gunner, and HLC. That's troubling.

Plus everything TIE Pilot mentioned.

Look, I don't want the cross faction ships to get out of control either. I was originally not pleased with the Scum crossover ships. But, I've learned to deal with it. And now, there is little reason not to release the Tyderium. And it wouldn't be one pilot. You would have Han and Chewie, at the very least.

As for your "troubling" scenario, how much more troubling is it than a Falcon with similar upgrades.

As for your "troubling" scenario, how much more troubling is it than a Falcon with similar upgrades.

Dash and Han are much bigger deals with 3-CPO then a shuttle ever would be, provided it has the same stat line.

2 less HP's and a worse dial... Yeah clearly that would be game breaking.

Using the example of the most wanted pack is irrelevant

Because you say so?

Plus everything TIE Pilot mentioned.

You mean everything I just refuted?

...Because of the reason stated right after your quoted fragment of my post. It was an obvious, easy, thematic solution to the design problem of "How do we introduce a third faction without releasing a hoard of ships at once which will cost players an arm and a leg?"

The fact of the matter is that unless FFG sees a design need for the rebels to have access to a ship like the lambda, it's not going to happen. Throwing in all kinds of wacky crossovers is a dangerous game to play when you're talking about a game that requires balanced factions.

As for your "troubling" scenario, how much more troubling is it than a Falcon with similar upgrades.

Dash and Han are much bigger deals with 3-CPO then a shuttle ever would be, provided it has the same stat line.2 less HP's and a worse dial... Yeah clearly that would be game breaking.

Point value of the shuttle. These things are valued around 20 points lower than the named falcon pilots and the outrider with a HLC (which is the only kind of outrider that would be offensively comparable to a falcon). Being able to kit out a Fat Shuttle at such a low point value introduces a slew of balance issues. If you make them cost in-line with the falcon in the 40 point range they then become woefully inefficient compared to an imperial shuttle and are pigeonholed into the role of the Fat Shuttle because it'd be the only one worth putting in a list at that cost. These are just a few factional design and balance considerations being thrown out the window here.

As for your "troubling" scenario, how much more troubling is it than a Falcon with similar upgrades.

Dash and Han are much bigger deals with 3-CPO then a shuttle ever would be, provided it has the same stat line.2 less HP's and a worse dial... Yeah clearly that would be game breaking.

Also I specifically said that it would not be game-breaking but concerning. As in the possibility exists that this could cause a few balance issues. Please do not put words into my mouth.

...Because of the reason stated right after your quoted fragment of my post.

That's not a reason, that's you trying to eliminate something because it harms your argument. You haven't provided anything even remotely resembling a compelling reason why MW doesn't count for this.

The fact of the matter is that unless FFG sees a design need for the rebels to have access to a ship like the lambda, it's not going to happen.

Design need has almost nothing to do with it. There doesn't have to be a need for them to include something, not if they think people will both like it, and buy it.

Point value of the shuttle.

A Omnicron group shuttle is 6 points less than a Outer Rim Smuggler. Fully kitting both out, with Engine Upgrade, 3-CPO, Falcon Title, HLC, ect... The Shuttle is actually 1 point more expensive. 41 points for the Shuttle vs 40 points for the YT.

As for your "troubling" scenario, how much more troubling is it than a Falcon with similar upgrades.

Dash and Han are much bigger deals with 3-CPO then a shuttle ever would be, provided it has the same stat line.2 less HP's and a worse dial... Yeah clearly that would be game breaking.

Point value of the shuttle. These things are valued around 20 points lower than the named falcon pilots and the outrider with a HLC (which is the only kind of outrider that would be offensively comparable to a falcon). Being able to kit out a Fat Shuttle at such a low point value introduces a slew of balance issues. If you make them cost in-line with the falcon in the 40 point range they then become woefully inefficient compared to an imperial shuttle and are pigeonholed into the role of the Fat Shuttle because it'd be the only one worth putting in a list at that cost. These are just a few factional design and balance considerations being thrown out the window here.

That is a lot of assumptions on your part. I don't see how loading up a shuttle will be more or less powerful than a loaded up HWK (see 2 the 2 40pt Jans that made it to the top 32. And that sort of ignores how the shuttles are played in Imperial builds.

The designers seem to share a lot of the same opinions I have about the game. But I know that doesn't mean I can predict what they will do. Or how. See Outrider Title or Y-wing Title.

not evidence on why they can't.

Well obviously they can do it, just like they can add the Sun Crusher. I just don't think they will.

I don't think a lone pilot card and dial (rather than a full port with a new identity) or unnecessary crossovers of ships in general is in keeping with their design philosophy and I think Lambda shuttles (which in the films are just called Imperial Shuttles) being a regular appearance in Rebel lists isn't thematically appropriate. I would much rather any expansion to the Lambda shuttle be directed towards its role in the Imperial faction and I think the Lambda's role in the Rebel faction is already filled by the HWK and B-wing.

Well to be fair, Lambda shuttles in ANY build aren't thematically appropriate. We NEVER see even the Imperials using Lambdas to dogfight X-Wings.

I want the Tyderium not for dogfighting, but for fun, because it is in the films. I also want Cloud Cars but that is a whole separate topic and a whole separate argument of deep space vs high atmosphere. In my opinion, the Tyderium shuttle for rebels would be a ship that doesn't actually fight, but helps in some other way. For example, perhaps it is a special shuttle that has limited or no weapons, and instead provides some nice support. I'd also say make it cost a TON, like 60+ points so you wouldn't likely see it in tournament play, leave it for epic battles. Who knows... there are a ton of ways they coudl do it.

I just don't think they will.

That's fine, I'm not so sure they will either. But there's a world of difference between not thinking they will and...

You will never see a rebel lambda. I guarantee it.

Also what the Lambda offers the Imp's isn't at all the same thing either the HWK or B does the Reb's.

...Because of the reason stated right after your quoted fragment of my post.

That's not a reason, that's you trying to eliminate something because it harms your argument. You haven't provided anything even remotely resembling a compelling reason why MW doesn't count for this.

The fact of the matter is that unless FFG sees a design need for the rebels to have access to a ship like the lambda, it's not going to happen.

Design need has almost nothing to do with it. There doesn't have to be a need for them to include something, not if they think people will both like it, and buy it.

Point value of the shuttle.

A Omnicron group shuttle is 6 points less than a Outer Rim Smuggler. Fully kitting both out, with Engine Upgrade, 3-CPO, Falcon Title, HLC, ect... The Shuttle is actually 1 point more expensive. 41 points for the Shuttle vs 40 points for the YT.

To your first bit, it is indeed a reason. Most Wanted is irrelevant because it served an extremely specific purpose of adding four ships to the Scum & Villainy faction, which is more than half of the faction, for less than half the cost of re-releasing all of those ships. The Rebel and Imperial factions do not need a stimulus of ships, therefore no conversion is necessary, therefore they won't do a conversion. To put it another way, Most Wanted was the direct result of a need introduced by starting a third faction. Without that need, Most Wanted would have never happened. Rebels and Imperials don't have that need. They won't convert ships. That's the reason why it shouldn't be brought up when talking about conversion packs between Rebels and Imperials.

To the second bit, design of the game is absolutely in their minds every day they work on generating new content and ensuring said content is balanced. If you read their announcement/release articles, every single one of them mentions how each new ship will have an impact on the current meta in a very specific way. The articles concerning rebel aces discuss how B-Wings will take on a small utility role in addition to the brawler role they have occupied since wave 3. They also talk about how A-wings will see increased use as more powerful flanking ships with the addition of A-wing Test Pilot and the Chardaan Refit. Every single decision they make is with design in mind. To think that they just throw ships in for the hell of it thinking "Oh, this is so cool everyone will want to buy this" is ridiculous. Read the article Paul Heaver wrote where he discusses Stay On Target. The entire thing is about how he wanted to influence some of the mechanics of the game. If the idea was proposed of doing a crossover for the Lambda, the first thing on every designer's mind is how it will affect the design of the game.

Outer Rim smugglers only have two attack and a couple less total HP than any of the named pilots and shouldn't be regarded as anywhere near equal to them. The difference in attack is a huge chunk of the point difference. That's the reason why I specified an Outrider with a HLC. The regular YT-2400 is not on the same threat level.

As for your "troubling" scenario, how much more troubling is it than a Falcon with similar upgrades.

Dash and Han are much bigger deals with 3-CPO then a shuttle ever would be, provided it has the same stat line.2 less HP's and a worse dial... Yeah clearly that would be game breaking.

Point value of the shuttle. These things are valued around 20 points lower than the named falcon pilots and the outrider with a HLC (which is the only kind of outrider that would be offensively comparable to a falcon). Being able to kit out a Fat Shuttle at such a low point value introduces a slew of balance issues. If you make them cost in-line with the falcon in the 40 point range they then become woefully inefficient compared to an imperial shuttle and are pigeonholed into the role of the Fat Shuttle because it'd be the only one worth putting in a list at that cost. These are just a few factional design and balance considerations being thrown out the window here.

That is a lot of assumptions on your part. I don't see how loading up a shuttle will be more or less powerful than a loaded up HWK (see 2 the 2 40pt Jans that made it to the top 32. And that sort of ignores how the shuttles are played in Imperial builds.

The designers seem to share a lot of the same opinions I have about the game. But I know that doesn't mean I can predict what they will do. Or how. See Outrider Title or Y-wing Title.

What did those Jan builds have? Something like a Blaster Turret and Recon Spec to get a 4-dice focused shot at range 1-2? The turret part of that is nice but there are a few key differences that make a shuttle much more threatening. A HWK-290 has only 5 total HP whereas a shuttle has 10. You can take that Jan down in the first 1-2 opening rounds of fire pretty easily. And how does it ignore how shuttles are played in imperial builds? You're adding C-3P0 to a buzzsaw shuttle. That's 3 points for a guaranteed evade each combat phase allowing the shuttle to soak up even more damage than it already does. I'm sure any imperial player, myself included, would love to stick him on there.

I just don't think they will.

That's fine, I'm not so sure they will either. But there's a world of difference between not thinking they will and...

You will never see a rebel lambda. I guarantee it.

Also what the Lambda offers the Imp's isn't at all the same thing either the HWK or B does the Reb's.

I said that because I strongly, without a doubt in my mind, do not think they will do it.

In the games, stolen Lambdas were used often by the Rebels, sometimes with the alliance starbird painted on the dorsal wing.

Not going to say never for this, but it shouldn't be any time soon.

I could see a bifactional release of a ship but a full on random unique pilots crossover pack? Really?

I was actually surprised Mara wasn't a Scum Z-95 pilot.

It's because, E-wing nonwithstanding, this is meant to be BBE, hence Mara being the Emperor's Hand at this time.

Right, but the E-Wing still exists, and it's clearly not a BBE ship. That (and the fact that it looks horrid) is really why I don't care for it much. ...Okay, so I mostly don't care for it because it looks horrid. The time limitations is minor.

But, I do think that FFG has plenty of wiggle room here, and I think it would be great if they put out Mara Jade as a Z-95 pilot. I also think that a 'Tyderium' title card would be fun. I like Crabbok's 'Crossovers Pack' idea.

All this talk of 'It will never happen' is very reminiscent of the 'third faction' discussion, which we were having before GenCon.

I could see a bifactional release of a ship but a full on random unique pilots crossover pack? Really?

I was actually surprised Mara wasn't a Scum Z-95 pilot.

It's because, E-wing nonwithstanding, this is meant to be BBE, hence Mara being the Emperor's Hand at this time.

Right, but the E-Wing still exists, and it's clearly not a BBE ship. That (and the fact that it looks horrid) is really why I don't care for it much.

But, I do think that FFG has plenty of wiggle room here, and I think it would be great if they put out Mara Jade as a Z-95 pilot. I also think that a 'Tyderium' title card would be fun. I like Crabbok's 'Crossovers Pack' idea.

All this talk of 'It will never happen' is very reminiscent of the 'third faction' discussion, which we were having before GenCon.

Sure it was, and I firmly believed that it would happen. They worked very hard to give those ships their own identities and play styles, which I think they largely succeeded in. I just don't see any compelling reason whatsoever to toss the rebels lambda pilots, especially given the balance issues involved. The rebels already have a support ship in the same cost range with the HWK and B-wing, and already have a ship capable of being kitted out as a buzzsaw with the B-wing. I strongly believe there is no room for it in the rebel faction.

To your first bit, it is indeed a reason.

No it's not. It was a method to get ships into a faction, ships that had a reason for being there. The same argument can be made for putting the shuttle on the Rebels side.

Your statements to the contrary don't actually prove anything.

If the idea was proposed of doing a crossover for the Lambda, the first thing on every designer's mind is how it will affect the design of the game.

I sure hope so. But that's not a reason why it won't happen, only that there are things to consider if it does.

Outer Rim smugglers only have two attack and a couple less total HP than any of the named pilots and shouldn't be regarded as anywhere near equal to them.

Has the same HP's as the Shuttle, and one less attack. You can not compare Han to a generic pilot, no matter what the ship is.

I said that because I strongly, without a doubt in my mind, do not think they will do it.

So you admit you have no evidence to back up your claim, only opinions?

Just going back to the original post for a second:

Mara's Z-95 is mentioned in the Fate of the Jedi series, Outcast.

It is docked on her Horizon class star yacht jade shadow, which was being operated by Luke and Ben Skywalker.

I'm only on chapter 14 of the first book of this series so i don't know if it gets any more mentions after this.

Sure it was, and I firmly believed that it would happen. They worked very hard to give those ships their own identities and play styles, which I think they largely succeeded in. I just don't see any compelling reason whatsoever to toss the rebels lambda pilots, especially given the balance issues involved. The rebels already have a support ship in the same cost range with the HWK and B-wing, and already have a ship capable of being kitted out as a buzzsaw with the B-wing. I strongly believe there is no room for it in the rebel faction.

I don't know what 'balance issue' there would be that could not be fixed by an appropriate point cost to the title card.

As for compelling reason: If there are enough people who would want to buy it, then FFG has a compelling reason to sell it.

Just going back to the original post for a second:

Mara's Z-95 is mentioned in the Fate of the Jedi series, Outcast.

It is docked on her Horizon class star yacht jade shadow, which was being operated by Luke and Ben Skywalker.

I'm only on chapter 14 of the first book of this series so i don't know if it gets any more mentions after this.

According to Wookieepedia (link to location), she also had a Z-95 during her time as Emperor's Hand, which she docked on a larger vessel which was her mobile base of operations.

As such, there's a lore-based reason to have it be an Imperial Z-95.

I don't know to what extent that justifies making this available, but if you want to be casual about it, make the cards and paint your model. You don't need FFG's permission to do so, though you won't be able to take it to a tournament.

As for compelling reason: If there are enough people who would want to buy it, then FFG has a compelling reason to sell it.

Which is a huge part of why they made the S&V faction which a lot of people myself included said they'd never do. Many of us also didn't think they'd ever allow cross faction ships in the S&V set either, which was one of the reasons we didn't think it would happen.

I at least learned my lesson and never say never again.

Although I did consider something like MW as a way to get the S&V faction going, if they were to do it.