X-wings are amazing in X-wing

Just because the generics suck doesn't mean the ship itself is bad

Um, yes it does mean that! The generics strip the ship down to just the ship. So, if the generic is bad, the ship is bad.

I think the game has suffered some power creep, though I don't think it was all that intentional by FFG. As such, the older ships have kind of been eclipsed. That said, I still think that TIEs are awesome, but they're also filler, but as I read MJ's analysis, X-Wings, Y-Wings, and TIE/x1 are not favored, nor do they seem to perform at the highest level.

MathWing has predicted this all along, even using only wave 1 meta models. I actually don't think we have significant power creep through wave 4, because we still don't have many (or any) ships that that are much more powerful than the standard TIE Fighter.

What we have instead, is more ships that each have different efficiency. Only the best get used at the highest level competitively. The creme rises to the top, and the rest don't get used.

• TIE Fighters and Z-95s are about equal for their efficiency, are at the top of the list, and see significant and consistent use.
• B-wings are a close 2nd, but aren't quite as good. Looking at the tournament results, they are not getting used quite as much, and are overall also slightly less effective.
• For the remaining 13 out of 16 generic ships, none of them see consistent use. In Worlds, the #4 generic ship in the Top 32 was actually the Sigma Squadron Pilot.

Top 32 Worlds stats are here:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/125842-2014-worlds-results/?p=1313343

That said, the named pilots have a different value than the generics. Some of them are pretty good.

Yep Xs are terrible. I almost made the cut (4-2) for T32 at Worlds with an 3X build. Horrible trash ship. Clearly the worst.

4-2 isn't bad at all. It's better than average. But we generally discuss the meta at the highest levels. Thankfully I do have all the squads now for Worlds, so we will have plenty of info to data mine!

Yep, you should have brought B's...you would have made the cut. Glad you agree.

LOL I would have gotten worked over. As many have said, just because Rookies and Reds are not as viable now, that hardly makes the ship bad. There are still tons of things Xs can do that B-Wings cannot. Like avoid being Ion'ed for one...

Edit: I should mention I am not very competitive at X-Wing and was amazed I did better than 2-4. But the idea that the X is somehow one of the worst ships in the game is baffling to me. I now wish I had made the T32 (which was well within my grasp in one of my losses) so that we'd be having a different discussion.

I don't think anyone said it was one of the worst ships.

It sucks compared to others...but there are a lot of ships here.

For the record...I am competitive...and I don't fly it in my best lists. I'm rather the big fish in my local little pond as well...not that this needs to be said to validate an opinion.

In all honesty...I think the X-Wing is O.K. but as the game is named after the ship...I'd expect more out of it. Its sort of a middling ship with nothing remarkable about it. It's got no WOW factor...not like B's and A's have.

For the record, somebody DID make it into the top 32 with an Advanced, by your logic that makes the Advanced a good ship. LOL.

For the record, somebody DID make it into the top 32 with an Advanced, by your logic that makes the Advanced a good ship. LOL.

The U.S. Nationals Champion took Vader and went 4-2, but did not make the Top 32 cut. It would not be unreasonable to expect that if he had taken a better ship he might have made the final cut, given that he is such an outstanding player.

He is good, very innovative. I've played in two tournaments with him.

For the record, somebody DID make it into the top 32 with an Advanced, by your logic that makes the Advanced a good ship. LOL.

The U.S. Nationals Champion took Vader and went 4-2, but did not make the Top 32 cut. It would not be unreasonable to expect that if he had taken a better ship he might have made the final cut, given that he is such an outstanding player.

Good to know how well he did. I have a feeling the 4-2 squads have quite a variety. Tie breakers suck, though.

X-wings are amazing in X-wing

Just because the generics suck doesn't mean the ship itself is bad

Um, yes it does mean that! The generics strip the ship down to just the ship. So, if the generic is bad, the ship is bad.

No, it does not mean that.

A ship is far more than just the base stats, considering all the customization options FFG offers along with every phyiscal model.

Sir, we are at an impasse. Thirty paces at dawn!

Other than the EPT, Reds and Rookies have the same upgrade slots as the named pilots. If the named pilots are great and the generic are not, then it's the pilots' abilities that make them great, not the fighter that they're seated in.

MathWing has predicted this all along, even using only wave 1 meta models. I actually don't think we have significant power creep through wave 4, because we still don't have many (or any) ships that that are much more powerful than the standard TIE Fighter.

If the TIE fighter, alone among the Wave 1 ships, remains a top-line ship, then I'm not sure it falsifies the power-creep theory.

By your stats, the Wave 1 ships were either absent (TIE Advanced) or batting below their average at the top 32. Between the X and the Y, the Y did even worse than the X, and - contrary to what Ficklegreendice is saying about named vs. unnamed, the Rookie was the only one to move the player up the ladder - and that may just be because of a small-n fluke.

Wave 2 did worse, with only the MF (and only Han) shining. The Slave I was gone, the A-Wing was a no-show, and only Soontir making a poor showing for the Interceptor.

Wave 3 was pretty sparse, with the used-to-be-hot Lambda barely there, the TIE Bomber absent, the HWK and the B-Wing making poor showings.

Wave 4, on the other hand - The Tala Squadron Pilot was the best-in-show and Whisper pulling her weight as well. I'll acknowledge that the TIE Defender and the E-Wing were no-shows, but I'd still say that Wave 4 was the most dominant.

Okay so maybe not power creep as much as a Wave-4 power pounce, based on the Z and the Phantom. I'd also offer the theory that the Phantom is what caused Han to make the grade, relegating Chewy to a has-been.

But I'm happy to convinced otherwise, and I realize it's not the sort of power creep that we know from GW.

[edit] double post

My personal definition of power creep is when a new ship risks making the previous "best ships" obsolete. So under that definition, you could release 12 completely terribly under-performing ships, or you could release 12 perfectly balanced ships that are equivalent to the previous best ships, and neither would be power creep.

The latter is obviously preferable, but historically about 25% to 33% of the ships each wave end up being consistently playable at the highest levels. Wave 5 will change that, as both ships will be playable, and Dash particularly so as he will become the game's 4th pillar. 58 Dash is the first ship that I have been concerned about potentially being power creep, but he does have some decent counters, so in the long run I think the game will digest him OK, especially post wave 6.

I know the X wing defenders are out and about.

You can win with some of the good pilots of the xwing and with lists despite the generics. But it is simply a worse ship for the points than either the z 95 or the bwing.

My personal definition of power creep is when a new ship risks making the previous "best ships" obsolete. So under that definition, you could release 12 completely terribly under-performing ships, or you could release 12 perfectly balanced ships that are equivalent to the previous best ships, and neither would be power creep.

The latter is obviously preferable, but historically about 25% to 33% of the ships each wave end up being consistently playable at the highest levels.

Wouldn't you say, though that 50% of Wave 4 has really made a splash, whereas the 25%-33% rule holds for the previous waves? And by splash, I mean that they give us half of all the ships which are going to the top in terms of your column 3 'Conditional effectiveness'?

Wave 5 will change that, as both ships will be playable, and Dash particularly so as he will become the game's 4th pillar. 58 Dash is the first ship that I have been concerned about potentially being power creep, but he does have some decent counters, so in the long run I think the game will digest him OK, especially post wave 6.

What's your thinking on the Decimator? I've got mine on pre-order, but I'm not sure how much I should be looking forward to it. Mostly, I just want to hum the Imperial March when moving it around and ramming into things, but I don't really know how effective it's going to be in play.

Well that was 2 mins of my life gone reading that OP.

My personal definition of power creep is when a new ship risks making the previous "best ships" obsolete. So under that definition, you could release 12 completely terribly under-performing ships, or you could release 12 perfectly balanced ships that are equivalent to the previous best ships, and neither would be power creep.

The latter is obviously preferable, but historically about 25% to 33% of the ships each wave end up being consistently playable at the highest levels.

Wouldn't you say, though that 50% of Wave 4 has really made a splash, whereas the 25%-33% rule holds for the previous waves? And by splash, I mean that they give us half of all the ships which are going to the top in terms of your column 3 'Conditional effectiveness'?

It depends on how you slice it. If you only look at generic pilots, then it's one out of 4 ships. If you go by total pilot count, then you have to add in Whisper, Echo, and Corran, so you're closer to the 33% mark. Named ACD Phantom's don't make the base ship any better.

PS8 Decimator + Engine Upgrade is a good counter against 58 Dash, and is a reasonable ship in other matchups as well. The TCO meta still hasn't quite caught onto the first half yet (partially because 58 Dash frenzy has not yet peaked), but this should be pretty well established in the meta by Store Championship season. If it still hasn't sunk in by then, it certainly will after - although we will have wave 6 to deal with then as well.

I don't think the Decimator is currently as good as Fat Falcon, but with 3 crew slots there is long-term potential for Fat Decimator to become a thing if more C-3P0/R2-D2/Isard type cards are made available to Imperials as crew. With 0 AGI it will be in more trouble vs swarms than Falcons, even ignoring the 2DR/round on Fat Falcons vs 1DR/round on Decimators.

X-wings are amazing in X-wing

Just because the generics suck doesn't mean the ship itself is bad

Um, yes it does mean that! The generics strip the ship down to just the ship. So, if the generic is bad, the ship is bad.

No, it does not mean that.

A ship is far more than just the base stats, considering all the customization options FFG offers along with every phyiscal model.

Sir, we are at an impasse. Thirty paces at dawn!

Other than the EPT, Reds and Rookies have the same upgrade slots as the named pilots. If the named pilots are great and the generic are not, then it's the pilots' abilities that make them great, not the fighter that they're seated in.

Considering you can't swap out pilots to other ships, you can't really divorce the pilot from the ship in this game.

If, for example, we consider Wedge to be amazing (imo he is) then the X-wing has the option of being amazing. The X-wing, and only the X-wing, has the option of being flown by Wedge. It's as simple as that.

If they ever want to shift him over to the E-wing for a nominal points increase, I'd be all over that in the heart-beat (but knowing FFG, he'd cost 45 points or something silly).

Point is, every ship in this game is much much much more than just the base stats. All upgrades/combinations thereof that the ship can uniquely support, at least the unique pilots, have to come into the discussion. Otherwise, all we can say with any sort of credibility is "LOL Rookie Pilots suck" (and I'd agree, only thing they've been able to do better than Bandits or Blues is fly along-side Airen Cracken with a decent dial and 3 attack dice)

Find me on vassal and we can try out your theory (username "s1n"). I'll take the 4 X-wings.

Challenge accepted.

Not with any bluster, instead I think it would be genuinly interesting. 4 Stock Rookies vs 4 of the Y Build I came up with. If you allow the fight to get close (and I"m not confident that they X's can avoid it) those Y's will shred your X wings.

I'll look for you. I'm trying to get on there more often.

To be fair, two rounds should prolly be played altering initiative....so that there is no question.

If the TIE fighter, alone among the Wave 1 ships, remains a top-line ship, then I'm not sure it falsifies the power-creep theory.

By your stats, the Wave 1 ships were either absent (TIE Advanced) or batting below their average at the top 32. Between the X and the Y, the Y did even worse than the X, and - contrary to what Ficklegreendice is saying about named vs. unnamed, the Rookie was the only one to move the player up the ladder - and that may just be because of a small-n fluke.

Wave 2 did worse, with only the MF (and only Han) shining. The Slave I was gone, the A-Wing was a no-show, and only Soontir making a poor showing for the Interceptor.

Wave 3 was pretty sparse, with the used-to-be-hot Lambda barely there, the TIE Bomber absent, the HWK and the B-Wing making poor showings.

Wave 4, on the other hand - The Tala Squadron Pilot was the best-in-show and Whisper pulling her weight as well. I'll acknowledge that the TIE Defender and the E-Wing were no-shows, but I'd still say that Wave 4 was the most dominant.

Okay so maybe not power creep as much as a Wave-4 power pounce, based on the Z and the Phantom. I'd also offer the theory that the Phantom is what caused Han to make the grade, relegating Chewy to a has-been.

But I'm happy to convinced otherwise, and I realize it's not the sort of power creep that we know from GW.

I think you need to look at points spent on the ships rather than the number of ships from each wave. I'd have to go dig up the thread for the exact numbers but more than 50% of the points spent in the lists that made the top 32 were on ships from Waves 1 and 2.

Are you kidding me? X-Wings are still fantastic, OP. Why? Solid dial, solid defense and solid firepower. It's everything you need.

Eat his ass!

ROG YAG WRAG!

Get after 'em!

ROG YAG WRAG!

KILL that SOB!!!

HOWL!

Good boy!

*Biscuit*

Challenge accepted.

Not with any bluster, instead I think it would be genuinly interesting. 4 Stock Rookies vs 4 of the Y Build I came up with. If you allow the fight to get close (and I"m not confident that they X's can avoid it) those Y's will shred your X wings.

I'll look for you. I'm trying to get on there more often.

To be fair, two rounds should prolly be played altering initiative....so that there is no question.

This is interesting, but I am somewhat confused about the matchup.

Is he doing 4 generic X-wings?

I would suggest simply running 4x Scum Y-wings, each with ICT, BTL-A4, and R4 Agromech. Bring the pain. I would actually be impressed if the X-wings won, but then player skill is typically the determining factor, to a point.

S1n, I may try and grab you on vassal sometime to test it out, because I have only math'ed out the BTL-A4s and haven't actually flown them yet. What would the X-wing squad be?

Now not only do you have our viscous attack terrier on your ass, but Mighty Maths has come to the blood scene also.

Find me on vassal and we can try out your theory (username "s1n"). I'll take the 4 X-wings.

Challenge accepted

I agree to some degree, but not as a direct comparison to the Y. The rookie was always a poor comparison to the Blue, and now you're a fool to use a rookie instead of Airen Cracken with wingman or Swarm IMHO. But the x wing is special in that ALL of the unique pilots are very good. I still think it's too fundamentally different from the Y for a direct comparison. We'll see once FF finally gives us some now Rebel Y pilots, that would change things. Also I'm waiting so see how bombs on Ys works out.

I think a favorable matchup would be scum Y with blaster, agro salvage mech, and no BTL. Now I think the Ys will chew up stock xwings and spit them out. of course, those are not exactly stock y-wings. 3 native attack is not average, it's at the high end. There are a great many ships that only have 2, and only 1 with 4 attack.

Challenge accepted.

Not with any bluster, instead I think it would be genuinly interesting. 4 Stock Rookies vs 4 of the Y Build I came up with. If you allow the fight to get close (and I"m not confident that they X's can avoid it) those Y's will shred your X wings.

I'll look for you. I'm trying to get on there more often.

To be fair, two rounds should prolly be played altering initiative....so that there is no question.

This is interesting, but I am somewhat confused about the matchup.

Is he doing 4 generic X-wings?

I would suggest simply running 4x Scum Y-wings, each with ICT, BTL-A4, and R4 Agromech. Bring the pain. I would actually be impressed if the X-wings won, but then player skill is typically the determining factor, to a point.

S1n, I may try and grab you on vassal sometime to test it out, because I have only math'ed out the BTL-A4s and haven't actually flown them yet. What would the X-wing squad be?

That's a pretty high point total per ship.

Are we suggesting 4 stock low level ships, with whatever upgrades may be available to them? Do they all have to be the same? Points wise it's a little harder for a Rookie to get to 25, especially if they all have to be the same.

The actual comparison should be 4 Rookies with whatever upgrades they wish, vs. 5 A4s with Autoblaster Turrets or 4 A4s with ICT and Agromechs. The point cost is the issue here, so you can't ignore the fact that 100 points allows 5 Autoblaster A4s but cannot allow 5 Rookies in any configuration.

X-Wings are overpriced for their abilities. They aren't terrible, but they are definitely under performers for their cost. As for power creep, as was said elsewhere that implies that the upper bar for effectiveness is climbing, which for the most part it is not. FFG is doing a good job of releasing ships that are consistently effective but not overpowered at their points cost. They seem to be creeping upwards because older ships were not as tightly costed and as more options become available their inefficiency becomes more obvious and easier to avoid.

On the other hand, FFG is also releasing upgrades for older inefficient ships that allow them to compete on an even footing with the more accurately costed newer ships. The A4 title is an excellent example, bringing the Y-Wing up to the level of other competitive ships. They have stated repeatedly that their design philosophy is to continue doing so in order to ensure that all ships remain relevant. Considering that, I would not be surprised to see an upgrade for generic X-Wings at some point. In the meantime, the fix was the release of properly costed unique X-Wings. I expect that unless and until a buff for generic X-Wings arrives the ship will continue to see competitive use almost exclusively with the named pilots, of which there is a wide selection.