On 3/13/2018 at 12:23 AM, SabineKey said:Ah, here we are.
While you have some good points, you are leaving out other details to support them. Examples being the Ghost being reassigned to Yavin and Mothma’s denial to continue operations to liberate Lothal, until basically coerced by Hera. Then the forces that the Alliance sent were wiped out, and the Lothal Rebels were left on their own. Once again, Jyn’s mission became an Alliance victory when their leadership actually sent General Merrick to join Raddus to aid the Rogue One crew. They actually attributed to victory with ships and lives. You keep saying insurgences can’t work like that, but that’s ignoring cells can go off the deep end and have to be removed from the whole for one reason or another.
As far as I know, General Merrick entered the fight with Admiral Raddus (and at least Wookieepedia backs that assertion up), who left without informing High Command. The whole operation was a success because a low level operative knew the layout of the situation better than the leadership on Yavin. If Jyn hadn't done her own thing and followed the will of High Command, the Death Star plans would never have fallen into Alliance hands. If Raddus had not left without authorization, the plans would have never fallen into Alliance hands. Mothma actually allowed for Rebel forces to aide on Lothal, the combined decision for Scarriff was that no forces would be sent. If anything, that makes Lothal MORE of a Rebel operation than Scarriff.
A severe top-down leadership style has been shown time and time again to fail because it constricts commanders from being flexible to changing conditions on the battlefield and allows for a crippling of an army by taking out key leadership or communications infrastructure. In any case, success or defeat by forces of an organization or nation are attributed to those higher institutions regardless of whether the higher ups agreed with it or not. Marshall Paulus was strictly forbidden to surrender by a certain leader of Germany that might rile up the mods if mentioned , buy the eventual surrender of his forces is still considered to be a German defeat. The commander of the USS Monitor was repeatedly ordered by the U.S. Secretary of the Navy not to engage the CSS Merrimack but did so regardless. The tactical draw was a resounding strategic victory because it kept the blockade of Norfolk harbor from being broken and possibly coaxing the British into backing the CSA.
Point being? A leader can make decisions that are contrary to the orders of their superiors. Those superiors then have every right to disown them from their hierarchy (MacArthur) or they can accept them back with grudgingly open arms and the decisions of those leaders become the decisions of the superiors. GENERAL Syndulla could have been stripped of rank and kicked from the Rebellion. She was at the Battle of Scarriff. She and whatever part of the Ghost crew were still with her were not considered 'off the deep end' and so her decisions as a leader were justified by High Command.
I rope in Saw to show those who rebel against the Empire are not all a part of the Alliance, therefore not all actions against the Empire can be claimed by the Alliance. Calling oneself a Rebel doesn’t make one a part of the Alliance, nor does it mean that all your actions now belong to another. Remember, the Ghost crew were rebels before there was even a Rebel Alliance.
This is an example of the Rebellion disowning the decisions of a leader. Saw's actions were beyond the ethical limits of the Rebellion and so they severed ties with him (and vice versa). This shows that the Rebellion has the will and the ability to act against rogue elements, something they didn't do with Hera and co. or the survivors of Scarriff. There's a line out there that wasn't crossed. Saw has no bearing on this conversation besides that point.
As for the formation of the Rebellion, what of it? Hera and the crew seem to have for the most part accepted commissions in the Alliance. Zeb is referred to as Captain, Hera a General, Ezra a Commander, Rex likely a Captain, Kanaan mentioned as a Commander, and Chopper as a Vice Tungus. Commissions such as these bring with them responsibilities. You've sworn your loyalty to the group that has given you such a rank. And given that these are officer ranks instead of enlisted, the expectations of loyalty are even more stringent than for the rank and file. Given that the Ghost crew still used these Alliance ranks even within the mission to Lothal, how can they identify themselves as generals and commanders but not be a part of the organization? Wouldn't it have been better just to go back to informal first name basis for the extent of the mission?
You also seem to be missing why the Rebel Alliance shouldn’t take credit for the victory on Lothal, which is that can’t repeat it. Yay, magical space whales and a Jedi drove the Empire off. That’s a miracle. And if you start promising miracles but can’t back ‘em up, you lose support. How does that sound like a good idea?
Did the Rebels take credit for blowing up a planet destroying battle station, killing over 1 million Imperial personnel, including Grand Moff Tarkin, due to the space wizardry of a farm boy? Honestly, if they pat themselves on the back for that, they aren't worried about whether they can repeat it. The Rebellion is built on hope, not practicality. Sabine says that the Rebellion grew bolder from Lothal. Why would they grow bold if they all thought it was a one time event?
Your point about the member of the Ghost crew sacrificing himself is interesting as it wasn’t one of the Alliance operatives. It was Gregor, a Clone who joined up with Rex and Ezra, not the Alliance. He was there for friends. Do you have proof he was there for the Alliance?
The Alliance saw fit to give a fighter and a medal to a farm boy who they knew for less than a day and a smuggler who was unwilling to act beyond saving his own skin and getting with the exception of one strafing run. I'd challenge you to make the point that Luke and Han weren't considered part of the Rebels in Star Wars as I'm sure George Lucas would like to have a word with you.
Actually WERE Luke and Han part of the Alliance during the Battle of Yavin? By your reckoning they apparently weren't. In fact, given that no Alliance personnel contributed to the successful strike on the exhaust port, doesn't that mean that the Battle of Yavin wasn't an Alliance victory, but by the unaffiliated freedom fighters of Tatooine? This is silly of course, but it DOES show that the Rebellion will pick up anybody they can get their hands on to handle the non-sensitive dirty work like any good insurgency would. Trust me, it wasn't Taliban regulars planting explosives in the pavement of Afghanistan, it was anybody who would accept the money waved in their face to dig a hole. Doesn't matter if it is loyalty or money; take up arms with the insurgency and you're one of them. There's no club cards handed out.
Some of the Ghost crew returning to The Alliance to there old titles is actually explained by a point you made yourself: Luke’s trip to Degobah. He went incommunicado for a bit on a private mission, but still had his old rank of commander. They can still be welcomed back from an action the Alliance approves of, but doesn’t take credit for.
Luke was on a pleasure trip. Lothal was strictly business. In fact, the Ghost team wouldn't have even returned to Lothal if not for Alliance involvement. There were not one but two attacks on the TIE Defender factory by Alliance forces with the Ghost crew being somewhat stranded on Lothal until such time as Hera could be rescued and then later to see the mission through for Kanaan's sake and the discovery of the portals. I assume that Hera was flying an Alliance X-Wing when she was crashing to Lothal's surface. At what point did they say 'screw it we're out of the Rebellion until this is done'? When did a hologram of Mon Mothma threaten Hera that she'd be out of the Alliance if she didn't return to Yavin immediately? The Ghost crew was a part of the Alliance. Extra missions like saving Hera may have been off the books, but when the Alliance assented to send the Spectres and reinforcements to attack Lothal, then the fight against the Empire on that planet became an Alliance one. Just because the Spectres were isolated and could not be further reinforced doesn't mean they suddenly weren't Alliance soldiers.
yeah, I do take Zeb’s remark at face value because a) again, the Alliance didn’t actually contribute to the victory, and b) because the lore group okayed this. Now, would more overt signs of this disconnect have been better? Absolutely. But this is what we got and this is what they went with. Explain to me how your opinion of this not being an Alliance victory outweighs the Rebels’ writers and the lore group? You can dislike it all you want, but that doesn’t give you authority beyond your own private considerations.
Once again, if the Spectres are part of the Alliance, how was the Alliance not part of the operation? As for Zeb's line, here's a few examples of what I am talking about:
Admiral Piett: If the Millennium Falcon went into light-speed, it'll be on the other side of the galaxy by now (such a trip would likely take at least half a day at the minimum)
Leia: I'd rather kiss a Wookiee (probably doesn't want to actually kiss a Wookiee).
Han: I can arrange that (probably doesn't want Chewie making out with the princess).
Vader: Apology accepted Captain Needa (didn't likely accept Needa's apology).
Obi-Wan: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father (hoooooo boy).
These lines were accepted as part of the script of the original movies by Lucas himself. But they weren't meant to be taken literally. Just because the storyboard group accepted Zeb's line doesn't mean that the literal interpretation of it should be inferred. Zeb is a pessimist and a smart aleck. How many times have we heard him say something along the lines of 'Oh great!' when the Imperials attacked. Was he happy to see them? Zeb had his arms crossed and was in full on grump mode. You show me the telling sign that we wasn't just harrumphing about things he didn't like as he's done for 4 entire seasons?
Also, your assumption that the mission was at a stalemate isn’t actually accurate. If you have read the Thrawn novel, you will know that he has before found ways around shields, including the simple send in ground forces. He still had a whole blockaid full of soldiers, plus the soldiers in the dome who we knew were not idle, and even forceing their way back to the control center in the end. Yes, Ezra was on Thrawn’s bridge, but he was also surrounded with even more reinforcements on the way. Maybe he could take out Thrawn, maybe not. But he certainly couldn’t have taken out the other Star Destroyers, who were still fully manned and could start a ground assault.
Maybe Thrawn would have, maybe he wouldn't have. How many times has the Rebels crew managed to tap dance around the stormtrooper garrisons of Imperial Star Destroyers? Thrawn himself was taken aback by the raising of the planetary shield which, if the armada was capable of disabling, would likely have done so. The Executor and supporting ships couldn't take down the shield generator of Hoth and Thrawn's ship couldn't take out an outdated (yet Sabine touched) generator protecting the Rebel base. He lost his pet Gollum on top of things. Ezra on the other hand had managed to take out THREE IMPERIAL GUARDS with accompanying stormtroopers while unarmed then fought his way up to the bridge. If his choice was to take Thrawn out rather than allow him to destroy the city instead of trying to make sure he was getting an octopus hug, Thrawn likely would have been down and out in seconds. For all his tactical wisdom, he flat out stated that he couldn't comprehend the Force. Thrawn lost to Ezra even while the latter was trying to keep him alive and subdued, how could Thrawn get better odds than that?
As for your historical point, i’ll give you that. But now we are getting more into the territory of what happened at Scarif rather than Lothal.
Now your point about the Empire not being the same as the Rebel Alliance. True, however that doesn’t mean that examples from it can be removed. Remember, that while Vader is Sith, he is loyal to the Empire as it protects and serves the galaxy. Look back to the Attack of the Clones and his thoughts on how to better run the galaxy. Fast forward to the Revenge of the Sith where while turning evil, he still holds onto this concept that he is making the galaxy a better, safer place. We see glimpses of this even after he was full made into Vader, as referred to by Inspector Thanoth, who thought he was better for the Empire than the Emperor. Add to that while the Empire was the tool of the Sith, it was not solely that. We see plenty of Moffs, senators, and other members of the royal court using it for their own ends. This is on top of loyal officers who joined because they believed in the rhetoric. Vader’s actions were Sith, but not Imperial, because the Empire was more than the Sith.
Vader isn't loyal to the Empire, he demands loyalty FROM the Empire. A man who is loyal to something wouldn't drive his capital ships through an asteroid field on the off chance of having a better chance at catching a light freighter. He wouldn't give dead stormtroopers piled in the hallways a brief glance before strolling down the hallway with no fracks given. The Empire wasn't more than the Sith because it literally couldn't survive without them. By your own admission the higher-ups used the same tactics as Sidious and Vader by using the Empire for their own means. The infighting and backstabbing in quests for power hit a breakwater in the form of a cold hearted killer in black armor and a robed man who always managed to make his enemies disappear despite looking crippled and weak. Those that were truly idealistic about the Empire's role were just all the more convenient tools because they didn't have to be given power in exchange for their obedience.
If you truly think that Vader had any real love for the Empire besides how it would advance his plan to someday rule the galaxy, read the Vader comic where Palpatine has to warn Vader that if he kills Imperial personnel for every infraction or plot he will someday rule and empire of the dead.
You keep referring to actual insurgent behavior, but also leave out vital parts of that process, such as vetting cells to make sure they aren’t moles, or self-destructive, which could lead to the downfall of the movement. Also, the leadership aren’t insurgence figures. They are politicians. Virtuous ones at that. If you care to recall, it wasn’t Mothma or Organa that ordered Cassian to kill Galen Erso. They are going to be more strenuous about who can and can’t get in, especially after Saw. They can publize what other brave freedom fighters did, but not take credit when none is due.
Once again, they let in a farm boy and a smuggler based off of a day of fighting. Insurgency groups don't have the luxury to be picky recruiters. Losses aren't easily replaced and most people don't have the desire to risk their lives with little or no pay based off ideals. Why, I'm sure they'd go out of their way to break out a woman who had a criminal record the size of one of those walls of texts flying through space, a close relationship with said Saw, and a known capacity to thwart authority if it suited their purpose.
As for credit, the accomplishments of the individual always serve the group. A soldier who singlehandedly pulls off a miracle victory nets bragging rights for his unit, not himself. There's reasons why members of various military organizations, who have likely never done anything themselves, still take pride in whatever numbers or titles that are associated with their unit. The actions of those before them are connected by that same administrative distinction.
When Hera and co. joined the Alliance, their actions became those of the Alliance. If they took the Ghost on a killing spree of civilian ships, you know the Alliance would catch flak for it. That's why they got rid of Saw, to minimize the damage. How does that not work in reverse then, allowing the Alliance to reap the benefits of the heroism of its members?
Finally, I would like to revisit and expand upon a point from before. It appears that the lore group are following reasoning closer to mine than yours, therefore the liberation of Lothal is canon and is not intended to conflict with already established lore. My way explains how. How does your way solve the situation?
Because a planetary action doesn't require spaceships striking from a hidden base and while a victory unto itself, is really no more a blow than the grand total of Star Destroyers, TIES, and stormtroopers that the Ghost crew has blown through over the course of the show. Scarif was a major victory, though a Pyrrhic one. Lothal was a victory for the Rebels, but not one they could maintain. The longterm beneficiaries of the liberation of Lothal were the people of Lothal themselves, the Rebellion couldn't maximize their victory by setting up a base or open supply chains. So for the Rebellion proper, Lothal's liberation was a propaganda victory, not a material one like Scarif.
But the bottom line, and one that has not been adequately contradicted, is that between Scarif, Yavin, and Endor you see all the arguments being used here against Lothal being a Rebel operation coming into play. Deus ex critters, outsider resistance groups, loss of direct Alliance support, refusal by High Command to green light an operation, and huge victories that would be difficult to repeat. And yet all three of these battles were undeniably Alliance victories. The keystone of the counterargument is a line by a chronic curmudgeon. That is hardly a smoking gun compared to all the other evidence to the contrary.
