Also, what was up with the Imperial Guards floaty sticks? I mean, I know they are called 'Force Pikes' but I didn't realise they actually let you use the force.

14 minutes ago, Andreu said:

I agree completely with this. Everything is well finished but the space whales totally took me out of the momentum.. they are fine for an episode but to insert them in such a key event of the story touches the wrong buttons

With all those tentacles I’m glad that’s the only thing being touched.

12 minutes ago, KellenC said:

Also, what was up with the Imperial Guards floaty sticks? I mean, I know they are called 'Force Pikes' but I didn't realise they actually let you use the force.

Everybody’s got a connection to the force. If Midichlorians, anti-force sloths and kyber Krystals can be a thing, then force enhancing sticks aren’t that much of a stretch. Better than helicopter laser swords.

I assumed those are some sort of antigrav tech/tractor beams.

Just now, eMeM said:

I assumed those are some sort of antigrav tech/tractor beams.

I assumed they were just stupid looking

Deus Ex Machina

Quote

"The term has evolved to mean a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the inspired and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object. Its function can be to resolve an otherwise irresolvable plot situation, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or act as a comedic device."

Emphasis mine

A few notes here.

Historically it dates back to Greek plays where the play would get beyond resolution and a god would step in (despite never having been part of the story before) and wave a magic wand to fix it. (winched in by a machine. Thus, God in the Machine: Deus Ex Machina) Of course, it's more palatable with Greek gods because they were a known quantity

While Deus Ex Machina is viewed in a derogatory light, it's not actually intrinsically bad. Even Shakespeare and Dickens have used them. Most people do dislike them though. *

New is a key point here.

I'm not sure the purrgil are strictly a DEM. They aren't new, and their connection to Ezra has been established. The line from the Bendu makes it pretty clear this was planned all along.

Do I think it could have been set UP better? Maybe. If I wrote it I'd have dropped a few more hints. But I think Filoni was going for an element of surprise to delight viewers. I think it's unpalatable to some, but I geniunely think a lot of people watching probably enjoyed the moment of surprise.

By a similar note, the Bendu wasn't a DEM. We knew he was powerful, and we knew he was deliberately avoiding war. Kanan had to convince the Bendu to act and it was part of the Bendu's internal struggle. It's clear the Bendu cherishes his personal ideology but to the point where he was going to be destroyed by the Empire, who had no care for his neutrality. He had to be convinced to act.

Ultimately, what's a DEM can come down to the eye of the beholder but I feel like a lot of tropes (Mary Sue, plot hole, etc) it gets invoked as a criticism when the situation is more 'something I'm uncomfortable with/unsatisfied by'.

You don't have to like the space whales. I'll concede, it is a goofy twist (but it has a certain charm to it, as does most goofy stuff in Star Wars). But I'm not convinced calling it a DEM is particularly useful.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to call anyone out here or put down anyone for 'criticising wrong' . I've a soft spot for Rebels, I'll admit, so I just wanted to put forth my view on it.

*to give some examples of things I would perhaps class as DEM are some of the things BB8 does in The Last Jedi. Firing coins out of his body and hi-jacking AT-STs is something that we've not really seen he's capable of but a) it's platyed for laughs, so works as a comedic surprise and b) it doesn't seem too incredulous. But, ofc, YMMV, I can totally get why you'd hate both those things. They're goofy as heck.

I laughed at Asoka at the end:

"Asoka?...that was what they called me.. that was my name..'Asoka the gray'..

"I am Asoka the white"

2 hours ago, KellenC said:

Also, what was up with the Imperial Guards floaty sticks? I mean, I know they are called 'Force Pikes' but I didn't realise they actually let you use the force.

Yeah, it's like the galaxy far far away has a way to manipulate gravity.. next thing you know they will have non aerodynamic ships in atmosphere hovering and floating. And what's up with people in spaceships walking on the ground?

1 hour ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Yeah, it's like the galaxy far far away has a way to manipulate gravity.. next thing you know they will have non aerodynamic ships in atmosphere hovering and floating. And what's up with people in spaceships walking on the ground?

No moving sidewalks...

how pedestrian!

5 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

No moving sidewalks...

how pedestrian!

That’s the idea.

2 hours ago, Ktan said:

Deus Ex Machina

Emphasis mine

A few notes here.

Historically it dates back to Greek plays where the play would get beyond resolution and a god would step in (despite never having been part of the story before) and wave a magic wand to fix it. (winched in by a machine. Thus, God in the Machine: Deus Ex Machina) Of course, it's more palatable with Greek gods because they were a known quantity

While Deus Ex Machina is viewed in a derogatory light, it's not actually intrinsically bad. Even Shakespeare and Dickens have used them. Most people do dislike them though. *

New is a key point here.

I'm not sure the purrgil are strictly a DEM. They aren't new, and their connection to Ezra has been established. The line from the Bendu makes it pretty clear this was planned all along.

Do I think it could have been set UP better? Maybe. If I wrote it I'd have dropped a few more hints. But I think Filoni was going for an element of surprise to delight viewers. I think it's unpalatable to some, but I geniunely think a lot of people watching probably enjoyed the moment of surprise.

4

Another definition is " an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel. " (courtesy of Google) Using that definition, it most certainly applies. The last appearance of the space whales (yes, I know, purrgils, but space whale better helps to showcase the sheer "huh?" factor of their inclusion) was in what, season 2? Been a while, but I remember them being hunted and killed, not a military threat for an entire Imperial fleet. Were they ever established as being this potent of a threat? Had it been established that Ezra could call them across who knows how many light years and get them to show up? (Force connection included, he was never shown ensuring they were close by, or convincing them to help. They just show up)

If this was planned (Bendu's remarks), it was very, very poorly executed, and that makes it, even more, a case of Deus Ex Machina , as the writers didn't have to worry about putting their characters in an impossible situation, because they always had Deus planed to magic them out of it.

I think your first point about it being unexpected holds some water. But I think that comes from them not signposting it because they wanted to surprise the audience. Which is one of the better justifications for a DEM (again, I don't think this is a DEM though). H owever, said episode clearly established they were VERY dangerous creatures and that was also implied that was why they were being hunted down. they are a massive hazard to shipping and the freighters we see in Rebels aren't exactly small ships. Plus, it's kind of an unwritten law of Star Wars that fauna is dangerous. Gundarks, mynocks, space slugs, wampas, even ewoks if we include more sentient beings you might class fauna.

Given one of the most dangerous creatures in fiction was Moby ****, I'm not sure calling them space whales actually diminishes them that much. How people could look at the size of those things, creatures of immense size that can survive the vacuum of space and not consider how dangerous they might be does surprise me a little. Especially since statements from said episode reference that they are very dangerous.

But I have a slight issue with unexpected as a term there because it's very general. Many twists can be unexpected but if they've been set up in some way the foreshadowing becomes obvious on a second viewing. If the purrgils used some sort of natural EMP or something we'd never seen before like that I'd be more on board, but we didn't see the purrgils do anything they haven't done before. The closest I can think of that is sending a signal out but that's not much different to lighting a fire to attract moths (but, I will concede, that's a weaker part of the setup and probably was to help keep the element of surprise.) Once they were there, the show seemed pretty clear that Ezra was using his natural (established) force ability to interact with them.

Maybe this is just the StarCraft player in me, but the space whales would absolutely be the basis of some sort of interplanetary zerg strain, and it wouldn't even need much adaptation. Some of those things are bigger than corvettes!

I'm not convinced about your second point. I don't think you can realistically argue something that's been planned for for at least one season, maybe more, is DEM. At that point, anything that's a case of Chekov's gun becomes a DEM. (A good example would be the adamantium bullet we are introduced to early on in Logan). That way, any plan set into motion and signaled a long time ago becomes a DEM. A call back to an established thing or event is a DEM. It's a contingency plan, and it's one that realistically is only ever going to work once. Poorly signposted? I would agree. Goofy? I also agree, but I don't think a little goofy is out of the spirit of Star Wars.

Also, it's quite easy to hunt an elephant when it's ambling around with a small herd and minding its own business. However, you'd be hard pressed to deal with a hundred elephants charging at you at great speed. Could an ISD deal with a purrgil? Almost definitely, but the ISD blockade was blindsided by a very large number of purrgil.

But YMMV

EDIT: haha, just noticed that the forums censored the name of a certain white whale xD

5 minutes ago, Ktan said:

it's kind of an unwritten law of Star Wars that fauna is dangerous.

This is one of the best part of Rebels in my opinion. Is Ezra the character we have seen so far with the strongest force connection with living things? I think this makes the space whales quite fitting as a conclusion to (this part of) his story.

I would be really happy if Ezra's path with the force is shown to be radically different from more traditional force users. This would make it apparent that he could never participate in the events of the other main character. He would only have a chance under very specific circumstances.

Yes, it definitely neatly ties off his arc that one of Ezra's greatest (and arguably unique) strengths in the force, empathy to all living things, undoes someone who's resolutely ignorant about the nature of the force (especially since Thrawn is so resolutely un-empathetic).

In fact, Thrawn's view of the force gels quite nicely with Luke's criticisms of how people view the Force in TLJ. It's not a thing to twist for personal gain, it's a think that we are in many ways ultimately an instrument of.

I know that Rebels called back explicitly to Rogue One after that film, but I feel that thematically it does share some nice ground with The Last Jedi as well.

I've been rematching some clips and its truly the most fitting finale Rebels could have.

Some really high, incredible moments in a majority of meh moments to WTF?

The scene that epitomizes this most to me are the royal guards suspending Ezra with their force sticks for elite stormtroopers, Thrawn's very best, to rush in and not hit a static target, then Ezra eliminates the Emperor's most elite bodyguards in seconds.

True awesomeness that descends into pure stupidity.

~

I would be fine with the space whales if the Empire killed some of them and they were damaged by scraping their heads and bodies alongside the hull.

If there was some tension the whales may actually fail.

If the whales were hurt but kept pressing forward.

But there wasn't.

The whales, organic beings, that have been killed fairly easily for millennia, millennia , with no damage to themselves, swept the most powerful ships in the galaxy.

Show me scars.

Show me wounds.

Show me some sacrifice.

Show me that these are organic creatures, that while tough are still mortal.

That's enticing drama.

If they suffered but kept going shows me the deep connection in the force between them and Ezra. The deep love they feel for Ezra.

Details like this go a long way, its what I learned in film school.

We didn't get any of that.

The line Hondo gave "For that boy, I would do anything" is what this finale was. But it didn't mean anything because none of our characters suffered at all.

Its not a matter of death, but no one got scars or serious injuries.

That's my fundamental problem with Rebels.

Adventure Time, Regular Show, and many other contemporary kid shows of Rebels, handles struggle both physical and mental so much better in a way that kids need to see as they develop and that adults can appreciate.

Oh, I agree, the cost didn't feel high enough.

I agree it would have been more impactful to see the whales suffer some loss. It would have kind of strengthen our understanding of their bond with Ezra. It was so strong that they would fight and die for him.

Gregor's death choked me up. It had weight and didn't feel arbitrary. I think there was scope for more sacrifice there and it would have worked.

For example, it's nice Kallus got to go and live happily ever after as the Gimli to Zeb's Legolas, but Kallus throwing his life down for Zeb could have worked quite well as well. Would kind of give the Lasat a bit more reason to accept he was redeemed as well. I'm not saying the episode is wrong for not doing that, but it's a possible option they could have taken.

7 minutes ago, Ktan said:

I think there was scope for more sacrifice there and it would have worked.

^This.

I thought about it some more, and I guess there's one reason why the Empire might not immediately send another fleet to Lothal:

A bunch of space whales showed up and wiped out their entire fleet. The Empire has no way of knowing of whether or not that could happen again. They wouldn't know what caused the whales to do that in the first place. They wouldn't know Ezra wasn't around and that the Rebels couldn't do it again. For all they know, there's just a swarm of fleet killing whales hanging around Lothal and any followup fleet would just get destroyed as well.

Imperial Captain Ahab seemed pretty eager to go, but fortunately the Moffs talked him down from it.

All in all, I liked the Purgil showing up. As soon as channel zero was mentioned, I knew it was them.

Ezra has always had a connection to the natural world. We have Fyrnocks, lothcats lothwolves, Purrgil, krykna spiders. All these creatures Ezra communed with. Some in peace, some less so. Then there is the connection he made with people.

He grew as a character, and in power. Ezra had a vision through the force of when and where to contact the purrgil, at least that is how I see it, and knew that was how and the time and place for it.

As to the empires reprisal towards Lothal.. what does it serve the story? Why can't we have a. Happy (well bittersweet) ending?

If we need a reason, lets look what resources Lothal has. Grasslands, so some farming and a hostile population and fauna. What would invading actually get? Razing the world?

Perhaps during that year, the Empire was dealing with other more pressing matters. The Mon Cal exodus perhaps? Who knows what else.

But I like the happy ending. I look forward to whatever new stories come our way, whether it is Battlestar Chimaera with Thrawn and Ezra or The Odyssey with Ahsoka and Sabine.

31 minutes ago, DarthEnderX said:

I thought about it some more, and I guess there's one reason why the Empire might not immediately send another fleet to Lothal:

A bunch of space whales showed up and wiped out their entire fleet. The Empire has no way of knowing of whether or not that could happen again. They wouldn't know what caused the whales to do that in the first place. They wouldn't know Ezra wasn't around and that the Rebels couldn't do it again. For all they know, there's just a swarm of fleet killing whales hanging around Lothal and any followup fleet would just get destroyed as well.

The whales were hunted to near extinction thousands of years in the past.

With ancient tech.

They're very mortal and everyone knows it.

If there was a swarm of ship killing whales it would actually be a high priority for the Empire to return and eradicate them.

Because you don't know where they're going to show up again. They may not stay at Lothal. They may be a threat to the Death Star construction or another military installation.

You've just given another reason the Empire would absolutely return.

I now kind of want a story like Jaws with an improbably large purrgil terrorising a convoy of Imperial vessels in a nebula.

(Of course, Jaws is the good guy here)

I strongly disagree with calling the whales chekov's gun just because we've seen them before. They were chekov's gun in the episode that introduced them, but here they came out of nowhere, with no setup, a cheap plot twist in the vein of TLJ. Ezra's conncetion to nature never involved calling said creatures via radio, and it wasn't even him who did that.

Even if it was... imagine the final duel of Episode IX, Kylo vs Rey, Rey is losing (purely hypothetical situation, I know it's impossible), she is knocked out, Kylo grabs the Millennium Falcon with the Force and is about to smash it into her... and then a ghost of Yoda appears and kills him with lightning.

Would that not be a DEA just because we know Yoda's ghost can cast lightning?

(Although considering the importance of the space whales and the remoteness in screen time since their only apperance, it'd be more like Sebulba suddenly smashing into Kylo's throne room on a podracer and running him over)

The way Lothal would've worked better in a believable way is if Sabine had said this.

"The Empire never fully returned, especially after the rebel victories at Scarif and Yavin not long after, other places seemed more a priority I guess. They would send a small ship our way occasionally to collect an Imperial tax, some resources, and leave but otherwise life here was good. It wasn't until the Imps were routed at Endor that Lothal truly knew the freedom that Ezra always dreamed of when he stood up here, gazing at his home. The freedom Ezra fought and...gave his life for." A small tear runs down Sabine's cheek.

It fits the lore.

It gives Lothal a happy ending.

It leads into Sabine discussing the others.

Her acknowledging his death sets up her surprise when Ashoka informs her Ezra is still out there.

Five seconds of extra dialogue extra. Nothing technical, nothing ridiculous.

Little details, that keep us nerds from thinking about unimportant details so we can talk about the themes, the actual important bits.

But I don't feel inclined to talk just about themes when there's such glaring points as Lothal escaping Imperial justice.

Yoda doing that would be cheap, but it wouldn't be a DEM.

Just because it's a DEM doesn't automatically make it bad, and the reverse also applies.

The Sebulba example would be absurd because there's no feasible link between Sebulba and any of the events of TLJ. It would be a DEM because there's no established or reasonable link between Sebulba and Rey. There would be between Yoda and Rey. However, both are still contrived and don't do really link to Rey's arc. The purrgil do, and it's a victory Ezra took many steps to earn. He put himself in direct danger and it was clear this was a contingency plan.

Yoda zapping Ren would be unsatisfying but that's the point I'm making. I think it's fair to say the whale twist is unsatisfying. But I think there's a tendency to want to couch things we don't like in media as "It's this trope" even when it doesn't quite fit the trope.

Maybe this is just me, but when I watched the purrgil episode I have a feeling that wasn't the last we'd seen of them. Also, a whole episode dedicated to a single bit of fauna is not "hardly any screentime". But it's also been set up specifically because of the Bednu's cold arms line. Purrgil fit that bill perfectly, I can't think of anything else that does without involving something like carbonite =P